Gigabet river play
 

I thought this was an interesting hand because it is a spot where I'd be too afraid to raise for value, with the flush on the board. What do you think of the raise? Of the call?

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t200 (9 handed) converter

Hero (t3155)
MP2 (t3415)
MP3 (t4140)
CO (Gigabet) (t9445)
Button (t1700)
SB (t4655)
BB (t3855)
UTG (t895)
UTG+1 (t3195)

Preflop: Gigabet is CO with 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
<font color="#666666">5 folds</font>, CO calls t200, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, SB completes, BB checks.

Flop: (t600) 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">SB bets t400</font>, BB folds, CO calls t400.

Turn: (t1400) Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
SB checks, CO checks.

River: (t1400) 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">SB bets t800</font>, <font color="#CC3333">CO raises to t2000</font>, <font color="#CC3333">SB raises to t4055</font>, CO calls t2055.

Final Pot: t9510

Re: Gigabet river play
 

I would be worried after the river reraise, but before that, this doesnt feel very much like a flush to me.

*I would still call, just be a little worried

Re: Gigabet river play
 

[ QUOTE ]
I thought this was an interesting hand because it is a spot where I'd be too afraid to raise for value, with the flush on the board. What do you think of the raise? Of the call?

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t200 (9 handed) converter

Hero (t3155)
MP2 (t3415)
MP3 (t4140)
CO (Gigabet) (t9445)
Button (t1700)
SB (t4655)
BB (t3855)
UTG (t895)
UTG+1 (t3195)

Preflop: Gigabet is CO with 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
<font color="#666666">5 folds</font>, CO calls t200, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, SB completes, BB checks.

Flop: (t600) 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">SB bets t400</font>, BB folds, CO calls t400.

Turn: (t1400) Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
SB checks, CO checks.

River: (t1400) 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">SB bets t800</font>, <font color="#CC3333">CO raises to t2000</font>, <font color="#CC3333">SB raises to t4055</font>, CO calls t2055.

Final Pot: t9510

[/ QUOTE ]

just call the river bet. no need to reopen the betting.

Re: Gigabet river play
 

Two basic facts that I see are: the odds are that the flush is NOT there and Gigabet's stack is 2-3xs the size of the table's stacks.

I would assume that he is raising for value here because he rightly figures to have best hand, has to call the reraise because of the pot odds, and he knows that if he is wrong he is still in fine shape.

IMO, standard, solid play.

Re: Gigabet river play
 

[ QUOTE ]
I would be worried after the river reraise, but before that, this doesnt feel very much like a flush to me.

*I would still call, just be a little worried

[/ QUOTE ]

It's not just that Hero to worry that Villain has a flush, but that Villain has to worry that Hero has a flush. In other words, you can't expect calls from too many worse hands, and you can get re-raised by better ones. That's my sloppy, spur-of-the-moment analysis that I would use to justify a call. But this hand got me thinking that maybe marginal river value raises like this are a play I ought to work on adding to my book.

Re: Gigabet river play
 

There's 7455 in the pot, it's 2055 for me to call, I'm getting laid 3.6:1 odds, an obvious call. Not to mention I have over 45 big blinds and can use the extra blocks to gamble in situations like this. No brainer call IMHO

Re: Gigabet river play
 

[ QUOTE ]
I would assume that he is raising for value here because he rightly figures to have best hand, has to call the reraise because of the pot odds, and he knows that if he is wrong he is still in fine shape.

[/ QUOTE ]

I understand that, but it seems like the problem with the raise is that he is pricing himself in to call the re-raise, when it is VERY unlikely his opponent is re-raising without a flush.

Combine that with the fact that there aren't that many worse hands that pay off the raise on the river, and this just doesn't seem like a profitable play to me. You win 1200 more chips the times you are ahead and lose 3200 when you are behind. You have to get called by a worse hand almost three times as often as you have to get re-raised by a flush to make this profitable.

Although if you are planning on calling the re-raise, I guess you have to assume Villain is pushing hands you are ahead of, as well. Which hands do you put in that category?

Re: Gigabet river play
 

i think i have to start limping occasionally in this spot PF.

in other news, think the river play looks normal to me.

Re: Gigabet river play
 

Very good points. On this play, Gigabet may have benefitted from a read that he had on the villain that would broaden the range of villain's holdings. What was the buy-in? Sad to say, but I would include the entire range below through most online buy-ins.

Admittedly, if the villain is standard online mtt'r I would have been very suspicious of that check on the Q of spades. But, again discounting the flush, I would put the range here to be 2pr, set, badly played overpair (many people play poorly against very good or very bad players and make stupid mistakes they otherwise would not) smaller straight, to top pair top kicker.

Re: Gigabet river play
 

I read somewhere, and I definitely believe it, that one of the differences between a good player and a great player is the ability to extract maximum value from marginal situations. I think this hand example qualifies, even if villain had the flush.

Re: Gigabet river play
 

zzzzzzzzz you guys are results orientated, this river is an easy value raise, I would have played it the same way as Giga (barring any other details left out)

Re: Gigabet river play
 

standahd

Re: Gigabet river play
 

I understand that a lot of you think this is standard. The reason I posted it is that I'd like to know the reasoning behind it. My read of the situation is that when Villain checks the turn, he is acknowledging the possibility of the flush. Either he has just made a flush OR he is considering the possibilty that Hero has just made a flush. Both of these scenarios bode poorly for a value raise on the river, because Villain will either be hesitant to call with a worse hand, or Hero will (apparently) be committing himself to call a push from what is likely to be a flush.

As for calling the push, I realize Hero is getting good odds, but with what hands besides a flush do you think Villain is leading the flop, checking when the third flush card comes on the turn, then three-betting the river? This was my thought before I saw the results. Gigabet was contemplating the call, and I felt like he was about to make a crying call with the straight that he had rivered.

For what it's worth, this was from a 180-man SnG. I hadn't been at the table long, so I don't know what read if any Gigabet had on the guy. I'm well aware that people are capable of playing like monkeys in these tournies, and I'm sure you can all recount anecdotes about times that you've seen bottom pair here, but I really feel like raising and planning to call a push is not profitable.

As I pointed out before, you have to get called or re-raised pretty often by a worse hand to make up for the times you double up a flush. Clearly a lot of players better than myself think that this will happen, so I'm hoping someone can elablorate on what kinds of hands they put Villain on that will play in this way.

Thanks.

Re: Gigabet river play
 

not raising the river here is really really weak

calling the reraise is also a no brainer and i expect to be ahead more often than not

Re: Gigabet river play
 

Nothing wrong with river play here...your river raise will simply be called by second best much more often than you will be re-raised for high +EV, and the pot odds give you an easycall of the re-raise. Cross your fingers and hope for a set/2 pair played badly.

Re: Gigabet river play
 

wow, a gigabet play i can actually understand.

The sb's actions look pretty standard. Looks like the flop hit him a bit and he tried to take down the pot. He got worried that the turn card gave the villian his flush. He was reassured by the villian's turn check and then bet the river for value. He might have hit a two pair on the turn or river and likes his hand.

I wouldn't worry about the SB having the flush. I hope I would value bet the river like Gigabet did.

Re: Gigabet river play
 

Is Gigabet famous? Who is he/she? I've seen the name tossed around.

Re: Gigabet river play
 

[ QUOTE ]
Is Gigabet famous? Who is he/she? I've seen the name tossed around.

[/ QUOTE ]

Darrell Dicken

Re: Gigabet river play
 

[ QUOTE ]
Is Gigabet famous? Who is he/she? I've seen the name tossed around.

[/ QUOTE ]

He's one of the more successful/well known online players. He's had some live success as well. A lot of his popularity is due to some pretty [pick your adjective: innovate/creative/controversial/absurd] theories he's posted here.

Re: Gigabet river play
 

I'm with the OP here. Against crappy opponents I might raise here, but what worse hands are playing this hand this way? Betting on the end after many conceivable draws get there is suggestive that the opener has something. As far as worse hands go, it could be a T, a Q, two pair or a set. I don't think all that many Q's check the turn here, and same thing for two pair hands. Two pair and the set might call the river, but those don't seem like very likely hands (65, 64, 54 maybe, QT probably bets the turn). You're folding probably anything else you're beating - maybe AT calls but I doubt it. A flush is definitely not folding and probably pushing back. I think the range of flush hands that he could have is pretty substantial, and make up (I would guess) about 50% of his possible holdings that he'll call with here. So if he raises us with that flush draw, it's going to be a bad bet, in this situation.

Re: Gigabet river play
 

Is there a reason Giga is playing a $22 sit n go (those 180 man sngs are $22 right)? Either he's trying for the TLB or letting someone else play his account or something. Or he went bust. Which would be funny.


Seriously though on the river you really can't raise with out being committed to calling a reraise. The chance of this guy not believing you or liking a hand short of a flush is high enough to make me call in this spot.

Though this is a flop where I like a semibluff raise. Folding to a 3-bet isn't the end of the world, and you can probably take a classic free card on the turn if you brick, and this guy will have a hard time calling the flop raise without a big hand, which is pretty unlikely, etc etc.

Everett

Re: Gigabet river play
 

[ QUOTE ]
i think i have to start limping occasionally in this spot PF.

[/ QUOTE ]

Curious why you say that. That was the first thing I noticed here. If I'm coming first in from the CO, I'm raising 95% of the time. Anybody want to explain the reasoning here?

Re: Gigabet river play
 

Villain's line is a very common flushdraw/turned flush line. This hand plays easier with reads obviously because you know who is the type to overplay their hands. And if this person is one of them then I'd value raise. Against good players I think calling is correct.