questions about going to vegas sportsbooks for first time
 

i'm wondering about:

- what's the best way to make a reasonable-sized deposit at the book?

- if you said cash, how easy is it for me to go to my bank and ask for five figures in cash? i assume i should do this in vegas so i don't have to worry about losing it on the way. my bank is citibank.

- how much walking is involved in hopping between the major books to check lines? i've never been to the strip.

- are there any websites that have the major book odds posted? i'm mainly looking to bet obscure things like mlb futures and season wins, so the site needs to be comprehensive.

- speaking of mlb futures lines, anyone know if vegas books have them up yet? most of the gambling sites are very late on these this year, but i assume they'll come soon with the super bowl over.

- any clue what the book limits are on something like betting a team to win its division or the world series, or season win totals?

i think that's all, but i could be forgetting something. thanks in advance to those who reply.

Re: questions about going to vegas sportsbooks for first time
 

You don't make a deposit at the book. you basically "buy" a ticket for whatever wagers you want to make at the time. You don't walk in and open an account or anything... its just a counter with a big board behind it with all the lines. You walk up and say "$100 on the yankees to win the pennant", hand them a c-note, they take the money and hand you a printed ticket with your bet and payout and a barcode on it.

There's quite a bit of room between casinos on the strip. Depends what you consider the majors. here's a map: http://www.lasvegasmaps.com/stripmap.html

Tropicana to Flamingo (Caesers to MGM) is a bit over a mile. Probably a mile and a quarter door to door.

The green tube on there is the monorail. buy a 10-trip pass or a 24-hour all you can ride pass if you're really going to be hopping a lot.

Its vegas. the bank isn't going to blink at you walking in and wanting to withdraw five figures, assuming the money is free and clear in your account. Citibank has a huge presence in Vegas, just locate a branch and take a cab.

Re: questions about going to vegas sportsbooks for first time
 

if you want to withdraw over 9.9k then do it in two seperate bank trips. less paperwork and no mandatory form submitted to the government whenever a person withdraws 10k or more.

Re: questions about going to vegas sportsbooks for first time
 

[ QUOTE ]
if you want to withdraw over 9.9k then do it in two seperate bank trips. less paperwork and no mandatory form submitted to the government whenever a person withdraws 10k or more.

[/ QUOTE ]

This will land you in jail and you'll have separate reports that get filed anyway.

Re: questions about going to vegas sportsbooks for first time
 

Per Thremp, intentionally structuring transactions for the purpose of bypassing the 10k Suspicious Activity Reporting limit is indeed not recommended.

But if you pull out $5k one day and $5k cash the next, the bank's going to file a SAR anyways.

Maybe not a Vegas bank.... [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: questions about going to vegas sportsbooks for first time
 

Yeah they'll file a SAR for skipping the 10k max. I forget what the other report is. But regardless it isn't a huge deal. If you're that worried, break it up over various locations/weeks.

Re: questions about going to vegas sportsbooks for first time
 

Only 3 MLB futures were up that I could find last week. Just about every sportsbook had the odds to win the World series and the odds to win the NL/AL pennant and odds for each division. I went to Vegas and was hoping to get a bet in on my Cubs, but someone beat me to them. Opening odds for winning the WS were 75:1, but had fallen to 8:1 by last week. 8:1 just wasn't enough for me to bet the Cubs.
Even the odds of 3:2 for the Cubs winning their division were pretty crappy. I couldn't find any MLB futures for over/under on number of games won.

Re: questions about going to vegas sportsbooks for first time
 

[ QUOTE ]
Only 3 MLB futures were up that I could find last week. Just about every sportsbook had the odds to win the World series and the odds to win the NL/AL pennant and odds for each division. I went to Vegas and was hoping to get a bet in on my Cubs, but someone beat me to them. Opening odds for winning the WS were 75:1, but had fallen to 8:1 by last week. 8:1 just wasn't enough for me to bet the Cubs.
Even the odds of 3:2 for the Cubs winning their division were pretty crappy. I couldn't find any MLB futures for over/under on number of games won.

[/ QUOTE ]

any chance you remember odds for any other teams, or how they compared in general to the ones available online?

i have a check from pinny that i haven't deposited yet. if i ask for more than 10k of that in cash, will that send up a red flag? what if i withdrew 9k before leaving and another 9k in vegas?

Re: questions about going to vegas sportsbooks for first time
 

I always get my money before I leave and keep it in a fanny pack. A trip bankroll of around 10k has always been sufficient for me and it's easy to keep that much in a fanny pack.

Re: walking around, you'll want to get a list of which books are owned by which companies so you avoid duplicating your effort. Leroy's, Harrah's, and MGM/Mirage's lines are all duplicated at a bunch of sportsbooks, ex. the Sahara, Hooters, and the Tropicana all have Leroy's outlets.

The strip itself is quite long, probably about 5 miles, and you'll do a lot more walking than that if you actually walk up and down the strip because a) crossing the streets often requires walking up stairs, crossing a bridge, and walking down stairs and b) most casino's sportsbooks are in the back of the casino, so you'll do a lot of walking inside the casino. And, some of the good books are a bit off the strip, i.e. the Palms and the Hilton. (Both have independent lines and are nice places to watch the games.)

Two things I've done to save time--1) use the monorail. An all-access monorail pass that's good for 72 hours is $45, and the monorail has 6 stops up and down the strip, including ones right inside certain casinos, including the Sahara, Hilton, and MGM Grand. When I was there last spring for the NCAA tourney, I got some NIT game +6 at the Hilton when everywhere else had +5.5 or +5. The game landed on the 6, so that one bet paid for the monorail pass and then some. 2) take advantage of free trams and shuttles. For ex. there's a free shuttle from the Barbary Coast to the Orleans (off-strip), shuttles that go to the Gold Coast (which I think is right across the street from the Palms), a shuttle from the convention center monorail stop to the Wynn, a tram between Mirage and Treasure Island, a tram between Mandalay Bay and Luxor, etc. A lot of the free shuttles just take you between properties owned by the same company (so those properties will have the same lines) but the shuttle might still save you time if you're going to a casino near one of the properties.

Re: websites with odds, Vegas Insider has some:

http://www.vegasinsider.com/nfl/odds/las-vegas/

There are links on that page for other sports. They have some future odds listed, but no MLB season wins. As a general rule of thumb, future odds in Las Vegas of the form "odds to win division" or "odds to win world series" are absolutely atrocious with a ridiculous hold. I don't know what odds are currently up or at what limits.

Re: questions about going to vegas sportsbooks for first time
 

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This will land you in jail

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Please name one person who "landed in jail" for withdrawing money from their bank account.

(EDIT: Wait a sec, I thought I had you on "ignore". How did I read this?)

Re: questions about going to vegas sportsbooks for first time
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
This will land you in jail

[/ QUOTE ]

Please name one person who "landed in jail" for withdrawing money from their bank account.

(EDIT: Wait a sec, I thought I had you on "ignore". How did I read this?)

[/ QUOTE ]

Structuring is a crime.

Note: Do you actually win money at sports or are you just a counter guy who wrote a buncha really funny stories?

Re: questions about going to vegas sportsbooks for first time
 

[ QUOTE ]
Structuring is a crime.

[/ QUOTE ]

So is jaywalking, but I've never heard of anyone "landing in jail" for it.

Re: questions about going to vegas sportsbooks for first time
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Structuring is a crime.

[/ QUOTE ]

So is jaywalking, but I've never heard of anyone "landing in jail" for it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Just like you don't run through traffic in front of the cops. You don't take out 9.9k each day or probably ever. Avoiding a SAR would be a good way to avoid looking like a money launderer.

Re: questions about going to vegas sportsbooks for first time
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Only 3 MLB futures were up that I could find last week. Just about every sportsbook had the odds to win the World series and the odds to win the NL/AL pennant and odds for each division. I went to Vegas and was hoping to get a bet in on my Cubs, but someone beat me to them. Opening odds for winning the WS were 75:1, but had fallen to 8:1 by last week. 8:1 just wasn't enough for me to bet the Cubs.
Even the odds of 3:2 for the Cubs winning their division were pretty crappy. I couldn't find any MLB futures for over/under on number of games won.

[/ QUOTE ]

any chance you remember odds for any other teams, or how they compared in general to the ones available online?

i have a check from pinny that i haven't deposited yet. if i ask for more than 10k of that in cash, will that send up a red flag? what if i withdrew 9k before leaving and another 9k in vegas?

[/ QUOTE ]

I picked up a paper copy of the baseball futures and most appear to be the same as the online odds.

Re: questions about going to vegas sportsbooks for first time
 

I have been involved in more than one prosecution for structuring.

at least one of those ended with jail time (it was only 30 days, but it was still jail time). That was a multiple offense case, based on tax evasion and structuring transactions to avoid taxation, so I'm not sure that you can say the jail time was just for structuring.

But regardless of Thremp's possible hyperbole, its still very good advice.

All sorts of casual people will give you the advice to illegally structure transactions ("don't withdrawal 10k or they file paperwork!") because they don't necessarily know that doing so is actually a crime. Whether or not doing so would end up in jail or a fine or nothing, its still advising someone to do something illegal...

Re: questions about going to vegas sportsbooks for first time
 

[ QUOTE ]
All sorts of casual people will give you the advice to illegally structure transactions ("don't withdrawal 10k or they file paperwork!")

[/ QUOTE ]

I will never understand this advice. They can file all the paperwork on me they want. I suppose it could increase the risk of an audit, but that doesn't phase me much (it's a hassle, nothing more).

Re: questions about going to vegas sportsbooks for first time
 

it just doesn't seem that difficult (or suspicious) to take 8-9k out at home, then take another 8-9k out in vegas if that's what you need.

especially if you only rarely withdraw money to build a cash roll, and the one you're currently growing could presumably be the last one you ever start.

Re: questions about going to vegas sportsbooks for first time
 

Homer,

Structuring is a crime. It doesn't just lead to an IRS audit. It can and does culminate in prosecution which leads to fines and jail time.

Now does going in to a Vegas bank once and pulling out $9k and coming back the next day to pull out another $9k going to end up with you in jail? Probably not. Is it illegal, especially if its being done with the knowledge of the $10k BSA reporting threshold and the transactions are intentionally being structured to avoid that limit? Yes. Can committing that illegal act have repercussions? Certainly...

[ QUOTE ]
"Structuring" is defined by the IRS as any effort to avoid reporting cash or other monetary transactions over $10,000 by breaking them down into smaller "related" transactions over any 12-month period (defined by USC 31, Sec. 5322-5324-Money Laundering Control Act of 1986, as amended). A structuring violation carries with it a criminal penalty with a mandatory prison term, heavy fines, and confiscation of structured funds and money "connected" to them. (A civil penalty of a $25,000 fine with confiscation of structured funds also exists.) Monetary instruments included in structuring are cash, cashier's checks, money orders, and traveler's checks.



"Structuring" is now defined as money laundering, and is a criminal offense. You can now go to jail for dealing in cash to protect your financial privacy, if the IRS thinks you're trying to hide or structure your transactions or monetary instruments. Furthermore, it's against the law for a bank or merchant to tell you that you might be violating the law. This can get him prosecuted as part of your structuring "conspiracy." If they think your behavior is suspicious, they may fill out a form on you without telling you and file it with the IRS, which will promptly audit you, or begin a criminal investigation. . . .



The average person might say, "Well, the government would never come after anyone who was totally innocent." But that's not true — he misses the point. The IRS admits that 85% of the people accused of "structuring" committed no other crime than seeking to protect their privacy. The courts have upheld numerous criminal structuring convictions for violations that concealed no criminal activity. If the government wins the conviction, the judge must sentence the criminal "to a mandatory prison sentence."


[/ QUOTE ]

http://www.fff.org/freedom/0394f.asp



Relevant IRS code if you're really curious:
http://www.irs.gov/irm/part4/ch26s17.html

Re: questions about going to vegas sportsbooks for first time
 

Performify,

He's saying he pays his taxes and isn't worried about the man knowing who has money. There is very little reason to worry about the 10k limit.

Doing weird off round numbers just under 10k might get a SAR on its own IIRC. Doing it all the time will result in some big problems.

Re: questions about going to vegas sportsbooks for first time
 

Just take the money out in one visit to the bank, whether it is a branch in Las Vegas or your hometown. It is already in Citibank, so it's not like you were hiding it; and people withdraw thousands for various reasons everyday anyways.

Re: questions about going to vegas sportsbooks for first time
 

[ QUOTE ]
Performify,

He's saying he pays his taxes and isn't worried about the man knowing who has money. There is very little reason to worry about the 10k limit.

Doing weird off round numbers just under 10k might get a SAR on its own IIRC. Doing it all the time will result in some big problems.

[/ QUOTE ]

Right, I meant I don't care if they fill out SAR's on me. Sorry for the confusion.

Re: questions about going to vegas sportsbooks for first time
 

My experience with Vegas sportsbooks is that their lines absolutely suck compared to what we are used to online. Mirage/Bellagio typically has 15 cent+ lines for a typical pick'em type baseball game. I usually make two Vegas trips a year and I almost never bet sports because the lines are so bad. Sometimes I'll bet a cheapo parlay or something just for some low cost action but there in no way I would bet seriously there for baseball.

Re: questions about going to vegas sportsbooks for first time
 

[ QUOTE ]
My experience with Vegas sportsbooks is that their lines absolutely suck compared to what we are used to online. Mirage/Bellagio typically has 15 cent+ lines for a typical pick'em type baseball game. I usually make two Vegas trips a year and I almost never bet sports because the lines are so bad. Sometimes I'll bet a cheapo parlay or something just for some low cost action but there in no way I would bet seriously there for baseball.

[/ QUOTE ]

futures stuff that's not really availible than online or softer than online.

Re: questions about going to vegas sportsbooks for first time
 

[ QUOTE ]
Right, I meant I don't care if they fill out SAR's on me. Sorry for the confusion.

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my bad.

In my opinion, technically speaking you could exposure yourself to the risk of prosecution for structuring if you were knowingly avoiding the reporting limits even if everything else is aboveboard. Thats one of the reasons the EFF is up in arms about the structuring laws - technically speaking just one transaction intentionally and knowingly structured to avoid the BSA 10k limit can be prosecuted if the govt can demonstrate intent.

But yeah, sorry for the derailment.

Re: questions about going to vegas sportsbooks for first time
 

Is it weird that I'm amazed Crockpot doesn't know all this stuff already? He's a genius at beating baseball futures and games. Thought he would already have big sportsbook experience. Has the robusto from hedging the big Tigers bet put his bankroll to a new level?

Re: questions about going to vegas sportsbooks for first time
 

[ QUOTE ]
Is it weird that I'm amazed Crockpot doesn't know all this stuff already? He's a genius at beating baseball futures and games. Thought he would already have big sportsbook experience. Has the robusto from hedging the big Tigers bet put his bankroll to a new level?

[/ QUOTE ]

i'm only 22, that has a lot to do with it. also have never been to vegas, as written above.

Re: questions about going to vegas sportsbooks for first time
 

ahhhh...it all makes sense now

that crossed my mind

it's weird but the sportsbetting demographic is usually older than the rest of 2p2

Re: questions about going to vegas sportsbooks for first time
 

[ QUOTE ]
ahhhh...it all makes sense now

that crossed my mind

it's weird but the sportsbetting demographic is usually older than the rest of 2p2

[/ QUOTE ]

Like you?

Re: questions about going to vegas sportsbooks for first time
 

[ QUOTE ]
ahhhh...it all makes sense now

that crossed my mind
it's weird but the sportsbetting demographic is usually older than the rest of 2p2

[/ QUOTE ]

QFT.

My advice is, don't be afraid to use markers. Take out $5k, play a little craps or BJ you were gonna anyway, hit and run, go over to sportsbook, repeat rinse shampoo repeat.

Re: questions about going to vegas sportsbooks for first time
 

[ QUOTE ]
QFT.

My advice is, don't be afraid to use markers. Take out $5k, play a little craps or BJ you were gonna anyway, hit and run, go over to sportsbook, repeat rinse shampoo repeat.

[/ QUOTE ]

i have no clue what a marker is. that's how little i know about the process.

i also assume i can expect zero comps from making a few max bets on baseball futures, given the much higher rollers they deal with.

Re: questions about going to vegas sportsbooks for first time
 

more questions:

- how likely are they to grant me higher-than-usual limits on a baseball future if they've never seen me before? i'm guessing they don't mind taking a lot of action on a 150% or 200% market, but they don't want to create a situation where they might lose six figures on the bet.

- which books are sharing lines and will move them together if i bet at one of them?

Re: questions about going to vegas sportsbooks for first time
 

A marker is a casino line of credit.

I've never gotten anything comped for a sports bet other than free drink tickets. I don't know how many high rollers the sportsbooks really deal with--the last time I was there, I cashed 4 or 5 winning tickets in the $300-$400 range, so with the original stake, the total paid out was something like $3500 or $4000. As I cashed the tickets the clerk let out a low whistle and the guy behind me in line said "Wow, nice hit!" which was really bizarre since the bets weren't even that big (not to mention they also didn't know how many losers I had, I could have easily gone 5-9.)

Re: questions about going to vegas sportsbooks for first time
 

Re: books sharing lines, the largest groups I know of that have joint lines are the Harrah's books, the MGM/Mirage books, the Coast Properties books, and the Leroy's books. I don't have a complete list of which casinos are run by which books but it shouldn't be too hard to find.

Re: questions about going to vegas sportsbooks for first time
 

thanks to all who replied. helpful stuff. the strip is really impressive for someone who's never been.

i made the rounds to bellagio, palms, venetian, hilton, wynn. any other major places that don't share lines with one of these?

Re: questions about going to vegas sportsbooks for first time
 

for nostalgia, I like going to Palace Station just to look at the old boards with marker writing/stickers/etc instead of the electronic big boards