How do i extract maximum value from top pro in 100r?
 

Stars 100r, villain in hand is kwob20, a tough laggy player whose played with me plenty. He is certainly capable of playing back with air on a board that looks like i whiffed.

My image is a moderately active TAG but havn't shown down garbage.

My stack: 11,900
Kwob20: 9,700

Poker Stars
No Limit Holdem Tournament
Blinds: t75/t150
9 players
Converter

Pre-flop: (9 players) Hero is MP2 with 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]
3 folds, <font color="#cc0000">Hero raises to t450</font>, MP3 folds, CO calls t450 <font color="aaaaaa">(pot was t675)</font>, 3 folds.

Flop: 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (t1125, 2 players)
<font color="#cc0000">Hero bets t600</font>, <font color="#cc0000">CO raises to t1500</font>, Hero calls t900 <font color="aaaaaa">(pot was t3225)</font>.

Turn: K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (t4125, 2 players)
Hero checks, <font color="#cc0000">CO bets t1250</font>, Hero calls t1250 <font color="aaaaaa">(pot was t5375)</font>.

River: 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (t6625, 2 players)
Hero?

Thoughts on my line up until this point? Whats your river play?

Re: How do i extract maximum value from top pro in 100r?
 

what are the stacksizes?

Re: How do i extract maximum value from top pro in 100r?
 

Raise the turn FFS, get some money in the pot

Re: How do i extract maximum value from top pro in 100r?
 

I like the flop. But how about 3betting making it look like a game of chicken? Doesnt look like AA,KK I think, he would probably expect a checkraise on the turn if you had AA,KK

How about a weak bet on the turn? Maybe he will interpret that as a weak ettempt to rep AK. I dont think the K is a good card for you, so you need to try and convince him you dont have one.

His riverbet feels like its a "showdownbet", so I would call and lead river or checkraise with your line.

Re: How do i extract maximum value from top pro in 100r?
 

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Raise the turn FFS, get some money in the pot

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I think check-raising the turn looks way too strong if it's part of the plan but I also think that it's an off the cuff reaction to a weak bet from villain.

I just bet every street and bet every street more.

Re: How do i extract maximum value from top pro in 100r?
 

On the river, what size bet do you make?

My first instinct is to lead out around 3500 chips but I this could be a leak of mine. Villian gets good pot odds anyway with a shove and he seems to somewhat like his hand. If he'll call the 3500, will he call an extra 2500 chips or so?

Re: How do i extract maximum value from top pro in 100r?
 

bet $1,000.

Re: How do i extract maximum value from top pro in 100r?
 

I think I like weakleading the turn. It disguises your hand and also makes the river easier to play.
C/Ring the turn shows your hand is very strong.
C/C makes the river difficult to play as to whether to C/R or how much to bet.
I like leading turn for like 1500-1800. I doubt he gives it up unless he really had nothing that would pay you off anyway.

Re: How do i extract maximum value from top pro in 100r?
 

Interesting hand. I think your line is alright. I consider a CR on the turn. Although pot and stack sizes do make it a bit tricky.

I like a shove on the river. Checking is out of the question, because he will check behind with way too many of his hands that have showdown value. If you bet, a smaller bet is just gonna look suspicious. I think pushing the river clearly has the greatest equity, because he might also perceive it as a bluff.

Re: How do i extract maximum value from top pro in 100r?
 

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bet $1,000.

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This is very bad.

Re: How do i extract maximum value from top pro in 100r?
 

ya as played I shove river

Re: How do i extract maximum value from top pro in 100r?
 

I generally 3bet flop as no one ever gives it respect as 99% of players will call the raise with a big pair to c/r turn.

Re: How do i extract maximum value from top pro in 100r?
 

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bet $1,000.

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This is very bad.

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no, it's not.

Re: How do i extract maximum value from top pro in 100r?
 

I think a strong bet on the river looks good. A smaller bet would look like a suck bet and might arouse suspicion, but a larger bet might make him think you're representing the flush. I'd probably bet around 4k, so that the decision is tough assuming he has any sort of hand and it looks like you're leaving some chips behind in case he comes over the top on you. If he's got a decent hand you've got a good shot of getting called, and if he think you're bluffing he might reraise for more value.

Re: How do i extract maximum value from top pro in 100r?
 

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bet $1,000.

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This is very bad.

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no, it's not.

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Are you trying to induce a bluff? Give some reasoning why 1k is a good bet size.

Re: How do i extract maximum value from top pro in 100r?
 

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bet $1,000.

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This is very bad.

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no, it's not.

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lol

Re: How do i extract maximum value from top pro in 100r?
 

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bet $1,000.

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This is very bad.

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no, it's not.

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Are you trying to induce a bluff? Give some reasoning why 1k is a good bet size.

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obv.

Look, as others have already stated, I've either blown him off his air or whatever he has or pumped the pot up bigger by now but given how we got here the only way you're getting your money in here is if you can induce him to shove. Maybe 1500 or whatever is better but LOL at thinking he's going to read your river shove as a bluff. WTF are we bluffing with here? I think a fake blocker is much better here.

Re: How do i extract maximum value from top pro in 100r?
 

I like the weak turn lead or flop 3bet.

Re: How do i extract maximum value from top pro in 100r?
 

make it 3k on the turn and shove the river. he's underbet the turn so grossly that even this relatively small raise should draw him in unless he has total garbage. i mean, build a [censored] pot already, get his stack. he bets less on the turn than he did on the flop and you just call. i think that's criminal.

Re: How do i extract maximum value from top pro in 100r?
 

[ QUOTE ]
make it 3k on the turn and shove the river. he's underbet the turn so grossly that even this relatively small raise should draw him in unless he has total garbage. i mean, build a [censored] pot already, get his stack. he bets less on the turn than he did on the flop and you just call. i think that's criminal.

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I like a turn shove. I want him to think his weak bet induced a pure bluff or we are semi-bluffing with a hand like A [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] Q [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] . A turn shove is only pot sized, so its not a big overbet.

Re: How do i extract maximum value from top pro in 100r?
 

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bluff. WTF are we bluffing with here? I think a fake blocker is much better here.

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The river looks like a pretty good card to bluff if we go to the river with air. We are obviously representing a back doored flush.

Re: How do i extract maximum value from top pro in 100r?
 

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The river looks like a pretty good card to bluff if we go to the river with air.

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?? Come on.......How do we get this far with air without raising that ridiculous turn bet??

Re: How do i extract maximum value from top pro in 100r?
 

K looks like a pretty bad card to CR. I think his bet is weak because his hand is weak, I'm almost certain any raise will push him off his hand as hes got to think im AA/KK/AK if i jam on him.

Re: How do i extract maximum value from top pro in 100r?
 

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bluff. WTF are we bluffing with here? I think a fake blocker is much better here.

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The river looks like a pretty good card to bluff if we go to the river with air. We are obviously representing a back doored flush.

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its not believable to the CO. we raised pf. we half potted the flop and then called a 3/4 pot re raise. did we do this praying for a back door flush ??? i'm not buying that.

CO seems to like his hand, so let's massage the pot on the turn.

as played , i like the suck bet/faux blocking bet on the river of 1,500-2,000. we've bet, bet , called a raise and check/called. he cannot put us on air if we feign a bluff by shoving. we need to make a bet he can call if he has a decent hand.

Re: How do i extract maximum value from top pro in 100r?
 

That turn bet by kwob20 is asking to get raised, if you raise it, he's going to have to think that some % of the time he's induced a bluff or induced you to overplay a hand. I c/r turn. Typically a flop lead/call, turn c/r will be percieved as a strong hand, but his small bet helps to widen your perceived range.

As played, I'd just shove river. He only has a potsized bet left.

Re: How do i extract maximum value from top pro in 100r?
 

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K looks like a pretty bad card to CR. I think his bet is weak because his hand is weak, I'm almost certain any raise will push him off his hand as hes got to think im AA/KK/AK if i jam on him.

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Would you shove total air on the turn then?

Re: How do i extract maximum value from top pro in 100r?
 

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K looks like a pretty bad card to CR. I think his bet is weak because his hand is weak, I'm almost certain any raise will push him off his hand as hes got to think im AA/KK/AK if i jam on him.

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I think its a very strange bet size to make with a marginal made hand like 99-JJ because it is likely to induce a bluff. Do you think its possible he is trying to induce a bluff with a hand like A3s?

Re: How do i extract maximum value from top pro in 100r?
 

bond, that seems like a bad bet by kwob if he is intending on bet/folding 99-JJ/44-77. Also, if he has trips or better, he's going to put all his chips in the pot for you, so we don't need to consider A3s.

Re: How do i extract maximum value from top pro in 100r?
 

Either donk the turn for 2K or checkraise his turn bet please. I kinda like the donk bet because letting him check behind the turn sucks. 3-betting the flop to like 4K is probably best though unless you think it's very likely he has air and you want to let him fire again or catch up.

Re: How do i extract maximum value from top pro in 100r?
 

There's no prescription for getting paid with a monster on a blank board like this; sometimes he just has nothing and you won't get paid off unless you let him bluff but that doesn't mean you were wrong if you bet more at some point and blow him off the hand, because you need to get money in somewhere and give him a chance to stack off.

The whole hand goes better for you if you bet more on the flop. If he likes to raise weaker bets and that was why you bet 600, just bet 750 or 800 instead, otherwise bet 900-1000.

Obviously if you knew he was going to make that lame turn bet you would bet yourself, but now that he's done it I would make a c-r to a weird number like 3611 or something, to set up a river shove. What sucks is that his turn bet, assuming it's a bluff sometimes and a value bet sometimes, is only an ok bet the times you have a monster, because it freezes you; when you have a weakish hand like 99 (which is the majority of your range here), he'd be much better off betting like 2500 with both bluffs and value bets, but specifically with 88 out of position you hate his bet size (although it's slightly better for you than if he checked).

I think it's worth noting that he might have a K but you don't; from both your perspectives. His range is wider than yours because he could take that flop line with air, you can't. The weird turn bet is really weird, but I could see it being KQ or something that bluffed the flop, thinks you have 77/99, and wants to get paid/not get stacked by a big hand. It could be that he makes this bet knowing you'll only check raise with a monster, in which case your best line would be to call and check the river, but if he thinks you can bluff at all, he's got to think that bet could induce a bluff. The catch is that it's hard for you to have a bluff, other than maybe 55-77, but I can't imagine him folding a K.

Decent chance he's bluffing but at some point you have to get some money in; by checkraising the turn, or at least betting a decent amount on the river. His range includes a lot of marginal hands so having just called the turn bet, I would bet something like 2500-3000 (half potish) that he can call with a weak hand and raise with a strong hand. I think the time to get money in was with a turn c-r; but by the river just open shoving/potting is not getting called very often, and a check-raise river attempt is going to get checked through too often.

Re: How do i extract maximum value from top pro in 100r?
 

River looks like an easy check. As it is I think calling flop and checking to him twice is fine as an overall plan, he's probably full of [censored] on the flop a high % of the time, or he has a slowplayed big PP that he will bet for you. I'd raise flop small though if you think he's the type to raise there for value/protection/showdown with like 77/99/TT and won't put any more money in the pot voluntarily. I think it's worth maximizing against those hands if he can have them here, as big PPs are less likely due to PF and he won't bluff THAT often once you call the flop.

Re: How do i extract maximum value from top pro in 100r?
 

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make it 3k on the turn and shove the river. he's underbet the turn so grossly that even this relatively small raise should draw him in unless he has total garbage. i mean, build a [censored] pot already, get his stack. he bets less on the turn than he did on the flop and you just call. i think that's criminal.

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I think this is right. Calling here is really really suspicious. Make it look like you are trying to take it away from him with his weak turn bet, and build a pot at the same time. He is probably not going to get too frisky on the river anyway with that weak bet unless he hit something anyway.

Re: How do i extract maximum value from top pro in 100r?
 

i like building this pot on the flop so betting or c/r turn isnt so difficult

Re: How do i extract maximum value from top pro in 100r?
 

I like it as played thus far. Lead the river for half pot, representing a bluff?

Re: How do i extract maximum value from top pro in 100r?
 

as played I like a river check/shove. I think if he does have a king, he's certainly betting it for value, and so is a hand like QQ/JJ and air might bet too, but that turn bet seems like a pretty weird size for complete air. I think lft nailed it with the bigger flop bet. Obv once he makes that retarded turn bet I hate that we didn't lead ourselves, but I mean, to all those saying build the pot, does he really have a hand that can call a raise here? I mean, if he has a hand, calling, and check/shoving the river is going to get all the chips in and maximize value from a lot of weaker hands imo.