The Pulsating Vein Tell
 

In an earlier post I asked whether it was cheating if you could see another player's cards or if you took advantage of the fact that the vein in his temple pulsated when he had a good hand. I was surprised by the fact that everyone put the second scenario under the category of picking up a tell.

His pulsating vein is NOT a tell by the normal definition of "tell". Because it is not something he is aware of or something that he can change. If you take advantage of it you are beating him based on something very similar to beating him due to the fact that his hands shake and you can see his cards because he can't protect them very well. If you want to argue that it is OK to take advantage of this kind of thing fine. But don't tell me that this falls under the category of routine tell detection.

Re: The Pulsating Vein Tell
 

He can absolutely change this once he knows it is happening, just like sitting far back in his chair when he has a good hand, etc.

His vein is pulsing because he is excited about having a great hand. With lots of play and focus, he can calm himself and the vein won't pulse like its going to pop out of his head. Another option is for him to make the vein pump when he doesn't have a great hand, which is probably even easier. In the meantime, he could wear a beanie or cap and just hide it.

The whole idea behind a tell is that the person is completely unaware that it is happening, and until its called out, they wouldn't ever make an attempt to change it. The guy that peeks at his hole cards everytime 2 to a flush hits the board won't ever make the simple change of taking a little more time to memorize his cards until he reads about it or someone points it out to him. Taking advantage of it until then is taking advantage of a tell, just like the vein until the person makes the appropriate effort to change that.

While its certainly harder to stop the shakes or a pulsing vein than it is to stop asking your oreos if you should call, its definitely not impossible.

Re: The Pulsating Vein Tell
 

I thought everything that gives away true information is a tell.

Re: The Pulsating Vein Tell
 

obviously he should eat a lot of salty food while playing to elevate his blood pressure so that his vein is constantly pulsating whether he has a good hand or not - so he can change it

Re: The Pulsating Vein Tell
 

Presto! http://www.trademarkcommerce.com/web...es/10-dbch.jpg

Re: The Pulsating Vein Tell
 

i don't see how this even compares to seeing someone's cards. when you have a very strong hand the vein still doesn't tell you if their "good" hand is slightly better or slightly worse than your hand. and you won't know if it can happen when they bluff until you've seen them get caught bluffing a few times.

Re: The Pulsating Vein Tell
 

Reading pulsating veins has to be considered "part of the game," largely because its an unvoidable aspect of playing the game. All players will exude body tells, that are to a more or lesser degree, readable by other players, whose skill at reading the tells will also vary.

The only arugable difference with the shakey hands guy is that you saw his cards. There was no skill involved in reading his tell (u saw the cards), and no chance that he was trying to trick you with a false tell (e.g. false excitement, using knowledge of his own tell to his advantage).

So that's the difference. Whether its "wrong" to use knowledge of seeing another player's cards who has shakey hands depends on what you think the game of poker is about. If its about rewarding the most deceptive, cunning player at the table, then its ok to use the info. If there is an implied skill requirement in reading another player's hand, then it wouldn't be ok - because it involved no skill in reading his hand (but arguably a lack of skill on his part)

In my opinion, it would be ok to use info in either case.

Re: The Pulsating Vein Tell
 

[ QUOTE ]
In my opinion, it would be ok to use info in either case.

[/ QUOTE ]
As my dad would alway say when we played cards:
"If you are going to show me your cards then I am going to look at them"

Re: The Pulsating Vein Tell
 

A pulsing vein can happen if their bluffing, too.

Either way, it's completely different than looking at someone's cards, because using a tell keeps it as a game of incomplete information and doesn't violate the Fundamental Theorem of Poker. It just gives you an "edge".

Re: The Pulsating Vein Tell
 

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His pulsating vein is NOT a tell by the normal definition of "tell". Because it is not something he is aware of or something that he can change.

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Sklansky are you serious? Who in the hell labeled you a genius? Must have been your dad, cause he loved you and didn't want to hurt your feelings. Have you ever watched Phil Laak play? Can you see any of his veins at all when he plays? He wears a hood and hides his hands inside of it. a person that wants to know if his veins are pulsing when he gets excited needs only look at himself in the mirror as he observes a young sex object. Something you should know a lot about. Please give us something of meaning. Use your brain not your reputation. We may not all be geniuses here but we all also may not be stupid either. Some of us, I mean.

leaponthis

Re: The Pulsating Vein Tell
 

I don't see how it's the same as taking advantage of a player who has shaking hands and therefore can't protect his cards well. That player does it every hand and is actually showing his cards to his neighbor(s). The pulsating vein is a physical reaction, like breathing heavier, or dilating pupils, to a particular hand.

If the player with the pulsating vein would take lessons from a master reader, that teacher would pick up on the pulsating vein and train the player either to control it or to cover it up with some kind of headwear.

Re: The Pulsating Vein Tell
 

There is also a device available to assist a player whose hands "shake". These things are not cheating. Sklansky is a nut case.

leaponthis

Re: The Pulsating Vein Tell
 

[ QUOTE ]
Presto! http://www.trademarkcommerce.com/web...es/10-dbch.jpg

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Those look like hats, not 5's.

Re: The Pulsating Vein Tell
 

'Because it is not something he is aware of or something that he can change.'

By far the most debatable part of your post.

Re: The Pulsating Vein Tell
 

well almost all tells are given when players are not aware of it i think.

Re: The Pulsating Vein Tell
 

The answer is simple: if he wanted to prevent autonomic nervous system-derived tells, he should have taken a beta blocker. Beta-adregenic blockers such as propranolol totally prevent the body from feeling the effects of adrenaline and norepinephrine. In other words, when your amygdala is short-circuited by beta blockers, you couldn't have a "fight or flight" response even if you wanted to.

I once did an psychological experiment involving completing logic puzzles while being intermittently administered mild electric shocks while on propranalol. I could think 100% rationally and complete problem-solving tasks, but not being the least bit afraid of anticipating a shock was the most extraordinary feeling. I never realized how much I thrive on adrenaline and nervous energy until it was gone.

In sum, I have no ethical problems whatsoever with detecting involuntary tells--or the chemical suppression thereof. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: The Pulsating Vein Tell
 

You may be good at math but you're weak in psychology. This post of yours proves this.

Re: The Pulsating Vein Tell
 

The main question lies in whether or not his vein pulsating actually gives a "tell" of strength in my opinion. I have used this "tell" often and have been burnt many a time.
It's very tough to pick up on the fact that a pulsating vein could either be a sign of extreme nervousness or over anxiousness. In either case a pulsating vein gives no indication as to whether a person is holding a strong hand and is nervous in general or fearful of a call or raise.

It's not cheating and sort of a silly question really...A strong reader learns to pick up on whether or not a players vein pulsation is due to one of these facts.

How does he justify this read? By past play and their cards assuming they have shown their cards therefore it's a "tell" in that it involves thinking and judgement, not an observation.

I guess I didn't answer your question regarding if this was cheating, but only because it's overly simplistic and in actuality sort of ridiculous. Maybe look at the definition of cheating....

I think the discussion on whether this "tell" as you described is actually a sign of strength would be much more interesting...

Just my 2 cents,

E

Re: The Pulsating Vein Tell
 

lets differenciate 3 cases:
a) someone is unable to figure out that a behavior he can control gives the opposition aditional information (for example leaning back in the chair in certain situations)
b) someone can't psychicaly control some kind of behavior that gives the opposition information (for example a tick (that he can't control) to blink in certain situations).
c) a physical problem (for example the pulsating vein).

why should some of these cases deserve special treatment and others not?
and why shouldn't we call all this stuff tells?

Re: The Pulsating Vein Tell
 

[ QUOTE ]
In an earlier post I asked whether it was cheating if you could see another player's cards or if you took advantage of the fact that the vein in his temple pulsated when he had a good hand. I was surprised by the fact that everyone put the second scenario under the category of picking up a tell.

His pulsating vein is NOT a tell by the normal definition of "tell". Because it is not something he is aware of or something that he can change. If you take advantage of it you are beating him based on something very similar to beating him due to the fact that his hands shake and you can see his cards because he can't protect them very well. If you want to argue that it is OK to take advantage of this kind of thing fine. But don't tell me that this falls under the category of routine tell detection.

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Seeing his cards because he is careless and making an attempt to see his cards are two different things. You are supposed to protect your hands at all times. Otherwise he would get an advantage by letting you see his cards, as you would be morally forbidden from acting on the information.

Re: The Pulsating Vein Tell
 

The ability to stay calm even when in a very stressful situation (such as a huge bluff) is a poker skill.

When I'm playing live and my heart begins to race I'm VERY aware of it. I try my hardest to control my motions/breathing and hope my opponents don't notice.

Heck the ability to protect your hole cards properly is also a poker "skill" when you think about it.

If your opponent holds his cards so poorly you can see them over and over, then I don't find taking advantage of that wrong either.*

*Note: This is different from you ACTIVELY trying to see his cards.

Re: The Pulsating Vein Tell
 

Whew! Doyle Brunson states in Supersystem that the pulsating vein is a tell for bluffing. I didn't agree at all and am relieved now for finding the opposite opinion from a reliable source.

I would agree to "ignore" this tell if the guy would agree to give me back my money if I loose.

Re: The Pulsating Vein Tell
 

I wear a high-collar, button-down shirt, which partially covers this tell. I do not see this as much as breath rate. With all due respect to the master, I think it is the mark of an expert to pick up any tell they can. Some newer players get excited in any big pot with a big hand or a bluff.

I would tell players if their hand shows. However, that creates a dilema I used to face in bridge tournaments playing against old ladies who held their hands out where you could see their cards. The other experts would look and gain enough to beat you. I watch people sort their hand in bridge and gin rummy and get a count on their hand that way. Some would consider that taking an edge.

I can watch the shuffle and maybe track a card that started out on the bottom. It is rare for anyone to be able to do that. That may be considered taking an edge. I am looking for an edge that is not cheating.

Re: The Pulsating Vein Tell
 

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I wear a high-collar, button-down shirt, which partially covers this tell.

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To cover the vein in your temple with a shirt, you would have to fix the top button across the bridge of your nose, and then turn your collar up. I'm not sure that would work even then.

Re: The Pulsating Vein Tell
 

I have more tells than Marcel Marceau...all on purpose. I'm always acting a little bit. Take the classic situation. You have the nuts and you move in. What do you do then?

I bet with a bit of a micro shake in my hand. I bet strong, pulling the chips way out there. I swallow and put my hand over my mouth and refuse to make eye contact, at first. Then, if my opponent picks up his cards or looks as if he is about to fold, I may say, "Let me have this one and I will let you have the next one." I honestly don't know why this exact phrase seems to work. If they want to talk now, I am ready. My behavior during their decision process keeps changing until they find one near their house. Did I ever tell you about people who chew gum? Back to the Masters original query, is all this world-class coffee housing ethical??

Re: The Pulsating Vein Tell
 

i dont see how anyone can consider this cheating

Re: The Pulsating Vein Tell
 

They need to add a pulsating vein to avatars on full tilt.

Re: The Pulsating Vein Tell
 

I decide to come check out this forum for the first time in a long time and this is what I find.

See you in a couple months I guess.

Re: The Pulsating Vein Tell
 

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If you take advantage of it you are beating him based on something very similar to ...
... you can see his cards because he can't protect them very well.

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You lose me here.

I think "looking at a person's cards" is a serious line that exists between cheating and not cheating. Especially since we haven't evolved into a mind-reading species.

Maybe I'm misunderstanding, but in my mind the vein tell is definitely a routine tell detection.

Re: The Pulsating Vein Tell
 

[ QUOTE ]
His pulsating vein is NOT a tell by the normal definition of "tell". Because it is not something he is aware of or something that he can change.

[/ QUOTE ]
The word "tell" as used in poker derives from "tell-tale sign". A tell-tale sign has nothing whatsoever to do with whether or not someone can physically control a revealing behavior.

If I had a pulsating vein tell, and I found out about it, I would try to hide, control, or use it to my advantage. If I could do none of those things, I would stop playing poker live - assuming that others who saw it, understood what it meant, thus making it a huge financial liability. At no time would I expect others to disregard this "tell".