WA/WB with AKo, not my usual line
 

I don't have a read on villain. He was sitting out when I arrived at the table and just posted this hand. His flop call was almost instantaneous. Love it or hate it?

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $4 BB (6 max, 5 handed) converter

Hero ($400)
MP ($1645.45)
Button ($1003.36)
SB ($376.75)
BB ($415.85)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]. MP posts a blind of $6. SB posts a blind of $2.
<font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to $16</font>, MP (poster) calls $12, Button calls $16, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>.

Flop: ($56) A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets $50</font>, MP calls $50, Button folds.

Turn: ($156) K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, MP checks.

River: ($156) 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP bets $154</font>, Hero calls $154.

Final Pot: $464

Re: WA/WB with AKo, not my usual line
 

Do you play passive turn and river because you think you are behind and want a cheap showdown or because you think you can make more money playinging it that way?

Re: WA/WB with AKo, not my usual line
 

I don't get it. You're obviously not planning on check/raising the turn, which is the only reason I can see to check there. Why check the river? If you really think you're behind I would think a blocking bet would be called for, if you're ahead I think you need to bet or C/R the river.

What are you putting villain on that he could play this way? I think a weaker two pair seems more likely than a set because of the check behind on the turn.

Re: WA/WB with AKo, not my usual line
 

I checked the turn to induce a river bluff. Doesn't my hand look like I hated the ace? In my experience (only 3K hands so not much), getting paid off by a dominated ace in a raised pot is very difficult. Once he doesn't bet the turn, I figure I'm probably way ahead and my best chance of making any money on the river is to let him bluff at it.

Re: WA/WB with AKo, not my usual line
 

In that case it's a good line. No real draws to worry about from that flop. Not a bad way to play a big ace in general I suppose. Also benefits from players who hit turn for two pair or something because you have somewhat disguised your strength.

Re: WA/WB with AKo, not my usual line
 

I actually like it.

against a decent villain, its very difficult to win a lot of money with AK vs AQ.

besides, with third caller preflop and pot sized flop bet, if you bet the turn, you pretty much have to call any river bet.

Re: WA/WB with AKo, not my usual line
 

Ilike uour line, too. But I think I would C/R him all in on the river. If he is on a bluff or weak hand,he will lay it down &amp; not get to see your hand. If he has a weaker Ace he may pay you off.

Re: WA/WB with AKo, not my usual line
 

This is good, v unlikely he calls pf with 34.

Re: WA/WB with AKo, not my usual line
 

[ QUOTE ]
Ilike uour line, too. But I think I would C/R him all in on the river. If he is on a bluff or weak hand,he will lay it down &amp; not get to see your hand. If he has a weaker Ace he may pay you off.

[/ QUOTE ]

And since he flopped a set you will be giving him more money.

Re: WA/WB with AKo, not my usual line
 

If this isn't your usual line, what is? This is definitely a play I use almost every time. There's no real scary draws on the flop, and on the turn you look fine.

Looks OK to me, though I may bet the river and call a raise instead. If I only had TPTK, then I'd check-call for sure.

Re: WA/WB with AKo, not my usual line
 

how often will a flopped set not bet turn here? Also, i'll play this way with a a tptk hand. It's been pretty profitable so far.

Re: WA/WB with AKo, not my usual line
 

Dare I say standard?

Ghaz, you play g00t.

Nh.

Re: WA/WB with AKo, not my usual line
 

This looks pretty standard to me.

Although once I hit top two pair like that, I get pretty aggro. I would have bet the turn again. Probably not the best move though, I'm not sure.

I wonder if this line wins more money when ahead, and loses less money when behind to a set (with top two pair).

Did this guy slowplay a set, or did he have something like QQ-99 or Ax? If he had 34, I LOL @ PF call.

Re: WA/WB with AKo, not my usual line
 

[ QUOTE ]
I checked the turn to induce a river bluff. Doesn't my hand look like I hated the ace? In my experience (only 3K hands so not much), getting paid off by a dominated ace in a raised pot is very difficult. Once he doesn't bet the turn, I figure I'm probably way ahead and my best chance of making any money on the river is to let him bluff at it.

[/ QUOTE ]

so why didn't you raise? even a min raise is cute here.

Re: WA/WB with AKo, not my usual line
 

[ QUOTE ]
If this isn't your usual line, what is? This is definitely a play I use almost every time. There's no real scary draws on the flop, and on the turn you look fine.

Looks OK to me, though I may bet the river and call a raise instead. If I only had TPTK, then I'd check-call for sure.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'll usually either lead the turn and fold to a raise or make a bet on the river once the turn is checked through. Some opponents will pay off with a weaker ace if the turn is checked through since they think that I think my QQ is good due to them not betting the turn.

I didn't raise the river because a full pot bet is, in my experience, either a very strong hand or nothing and I'd rather see what he played that way when I'm ahead than raise and not get that information. I lose value against worse two pairs that will pay off a raise but I think I will see a bluff or a set a high percentage of the time.

Re: WA/WB with AKo, not my usual line
 

Y do u say wawb? bet turn.

Re: WA/WB with AKo, not my usual line
 

Does everyone think that villain is bluffing this river 1 in 3 times? If he's half decent, he should know that given the line hero took, bluffing this river is really bad. If hero has something like QQ-TT he folds, and he calls with AK. AQ-AT seem like the only reasonable hands that hero could be pushed off of, on the river that plays the hand this way. And why would villain want to 'bluff' the river with AQ, A5,A6, as he can't expect too many worst hands to call the river. I think it's better for hero to make a block type river bet, or just check/fold to the big bet. Am I way off here?

Re: WA/WB with AKo, not my usual line
 

[ QUOTE ]
but I think I will see a bluff or a set a high percentage of the time.

[/ QUOTE ]

What I don't get is, what hands that call this flop are going to bluff the river?

Re: WA/WB with AKo, not my usual line
 

bet 1/2 the pot on turn and it sets you up for river push.

'inducing bluff' / pot control sucks here because you miss
too much value with top 2 doing that. I would like the river check more if flop had 2 diamonds or the flush draw from flop missed..

THIS IS PARTY POKER man..your aim should be to get the stack in with top 2 because donks call all day with TPGK ...

Results
 

Well, in light of what villain had (64o), I look like a genius as there's no way I make any money from it any other way. Frankly, the quick flop call bothered me and got me into pot control and get-to-showdown-cheaply mode. I've taken this line a few times with AK when I hit on relatively benign boards and had good results. However, I don't have enough of a sample size to say whether its more profitable than other lines over the long run.

Re: Results
 

this guy cant have 78 or 43?

Re: Results
 

[ QUOTE ]
this guy cant have 78 or 43?

[/ QUOTE ]

Of course he can.

Re: Results
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
this guy cant have 78 or 43?

[/ QUOTE ]

Of course he can.

[/ QUOTE ]
right, so it isnt wawb

Re: Results
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
this guy cant have 78 or 43?

[/ QUOTE ]

Of course he can.

[/ QUOTE ]
right, so it isnt wawb

[/ QUOTE ]

I know what you're saying but I don't agree that the possibility of him holding an OESD on the flop makes this not treatable as a WA/WB scenario.

Re: Results
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
this guy cant have 78 or 43?

[/ QUOTE ]

Of course he can.

[/ QUOTE ]
right, so it isnt wawb

[/ QUOTE ]

I know what you're saying but I don't agree that the possibility of him holding an OESD on the flop makes this not treatable as a WA/WB scenario.

[/ QUOTE ]
8 outs is not wb. even 5 outs is not way behind.

Re: Results
 

It sounds like the only thing that fits your definition of WA/WB is having 22 on a K72r flop.

Re: Results
 

AK on AT7 vs PFR.

Re: Results
 

[ QUOTE ]
AK on AT7 vs PFR.

[/ QUOTE ]

People never raise 98?

Re: Results
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
AK on AT7 vs PFR.

[/ QUOTE ]

People never raise 98?

[/ QUOTE ]
Very unlikely. Much more likely that he has an ace or a set. So the most likely (overwhelmingly so) scenario is that you have no outs or he has three outs. That is WAWB. Or T52 flop with KK vs preflop re-raised. You have two outs or he has two outs. WAWB. But when you raised preflop and a loose player calls you, you have to think that suited connectors are well within their playing range. So it is not at all unlikely that he could have 5 or 8 outs. So you should bet the turn. It is not very likely that he raises the turn with a hand that you beat, although with top two it is possible. And you have 4 outs here no matter what he has so you are behind but at least you have some reasonable number of outs. It's not like you're drawing dead even if he has a set. So I definitely bet the turn. Whether or not you call a raise depends on the opponent. With top two, I'm usually calling a raise.

Re: Results
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
AK on AT7 vs PFR.

[/ QUOTE ]

People never raise 98?

[/ QUOTE ]
dude you are really pushing it w/ the "what if's"

even if it was WAWB, river check sucks a lot for simple reason of leaving sklansky bucks on the table.

Re: Results
 

Turned out well this time, but you'll be kicking yourself when a backdoor flush with a low pair pulls in this pot.

I never really understood the WAWB logic, don't you want to get money in with close to 100% pot equity? Maybe you should change the situation to: "he's bluffing or I'm screwed".

Re: Results
 

[ QUOTE ]
Turned out well this time, but you'll be kicking yourself when a backdoor flush with a low pair pulls in this pot.

I never really understood the WAWB logic, don't you want to get money in with close to 100% pot equity?

[/ QUOTE ]
Of course. Unfortunately we don't have that, hence the WB in WAWB. Betting with no draws in a situation where you are either dominated and will lose a lot of money, or are dominating and will win a little money, is -EV.

Re: WA/WB with AKo, not my usual line
 

I love it. Genius. Noone suddenly shoves like that on the river with a monster. The river check strongly indicated that you were weak, and your trap worked beautifully. GG.

Re: Results
 

someone really needs to explain these abbreviations to me.

Re: Results
 

WA = Way ahead WB = Way behind.

Re: Results
 

and OESD?

Re: Results
 

Open ended straight draw.

Re: WA/WB with AKo, not my usual line
 

villian might be value betting a worse hand, not necessarily bluffing.

Re: WA/WB with AKo, not my usual line
 

i think i would have bet the turn, something around 60% of the pot (so around 90-100$).
The pb is, as i don't have any note on that player, i'm not sure what to do if he raises me. That may look weak, but i'm gonna think about folding my top two if he raises me on turn.
Provided i bet the turn, then i may check call a "not too big" river bet (if he bets pot, i may fold). I'd be cautious with a possible 43. You don't know that guy, he may call your preflop raise with 43s. And action on flop/turn would make sense with that hand. With my turn bet i think his river bluff is unlikely because of the strenght i showed preflop, on the flop and on the turn.

If i don't bet the turn, i bet the river, something around 50-60% of the pot. If i'm raised, i think i'm gonna fold (maybe i'd call a min raise).
Is my line sensible? That may look weak because my opponent could push with AK and i'd fold but that way i'd get more value from AQ.

Re: Results
 

[ QUOTE ]
someone really needs to explain these abbreviations to me.

[/ QUOTE ]

do you think it seriously?