Why can\'t i go a session without making a mistake?
 

I play a decent standard of poker, and i'm sure i am a winning player and my stats and results read good.

BUT, why do i keep making 1 or 2 mistakes in say a 2 hour session. I'm not saying i don't make other mistakes as i'm not Phil Ivey. What i'm talking about are mistakes where i know what to do but for some reason i make a different play and realise its the wrong play as soon as ive made it.

SOOO frustrating as i know its eating away slowly at my win rate.

Is this common? Is it rare to go a session without making what should be easily avoidable mistakes.

Re: Why can\'t i go a session without making a mistake?
 

same here. Lack of concentration? Tilt? I can't help you, because I don't know why I do this myself.

Re: Why can\'t i go a session without making a mistake?
 

no, it's not tilt. I think its lack of concentrationm but the way i see it if i lose 2BB in a 2 hour period ive practically broken even for the session instead of being up 2bb

Re: Why can\'t i go a session without making a mistake?
 

I don't know why you do it. I do it too. Maybe we should be glad we don't do it more?

The subject of "Tilt" may be a lot more complex than most people think. There's a book called, "Inside the Poker Mind" by psychologist/poker player John Feeney that you might find an interesting read. He talks about "subtle, unrecognized tilt," and defines "tilt" as occurring any time you make a play based on emotion of any kind; a play you might otherwise not make.

This is a lot more than blowing off your BR or throwing your cards at the dealer. It's the subtle little things like what you are describing.

And I think, having read it, that we ALL tilt some, even Phil Ivey!! [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] Maybe we're best served by trying to understand it and manage it.

You might want to take a look at that book. Personally, I found it very helpful.

bill c

Re: Why can\'t i go a session without making a mistake?
 

I've read it, still clueless. Altough I realize tilt is more subtle now.

Re: Why can\'t i go a session without making a mistake?
 

It could possibly be for 2 reasons:

1. Could it be because you are playing too many tables? You could playing just enough tables where your attention is just spread a bit too thin and just enough so that you make mistakes because you just don't have enough time to think.

2. Could it be that you being too results oriented and will make a play just hoping to win a pot, even know though you know it is not the right play? This often happens when running badly or neutral and is a more of a subtle tilt (not the traditional form of full blown monkey tilt).

Most of us will never play perfect sessions consistently. Poker is a game of incomplete information and because of that, we will make the wrong play on occasion. Of course, add in the fact that we're human and emotions get involved and that makes it even harder to play perfectly. However, we do have control over the 2 possibilities I mentioned above.

Re: Why can\'t i go a session without making a mistake?
 

i only play 2 as i found i was making so many bad decisions with 3 or more it just wasn't worth it.

i cope fine with 2 so i don't believe it is that. i would never consider playing with just 1 as i'd be bored out of my skull.

I used to be results orientated - i/e if i was stuck in a session i would raise first in with hands i shouldn't to try and win the blinds, but i havn't done that for a long time.

I think its just plain old lack of concentration and maybe fatigue setting in.

Re: Why can\'t i go a session without making a mistake?
 

Another thing, which is easy to do and easy to correct...

Don't play too fast.

Re: Why can\'t i go a session without making a mistake?
 

That's a good one jack... I sometimes already press the 3 bet button before thinking. I'm over-aggressive. And sometimes I just fold when I know I'm beat (which I'm certain I am then) but I completely fail to look at the odds to outdraw certain hands, and I fold. Often correct, but sometimes I get proper odds and fold.

Re: Why can\'t i go a session without making a mistake?
 

if you never made a mistake you'd be playing in the big games and crusing in the money. as long as you realize u did something wrong that counts a lot as there are players out there that do things their whole playing lives without even realizing that it is wrong. that is what seperates the winners from the losers.

Re: Why can\'t i go a session without making a mistake?
 

Yeah, everyone makes these kinds of mistakes (the why did I do that moment). Be hard on yourself, but also be gentle... you have to make hundreds and hundreds of decisions a session, you're bound to make a few errors. Even the best players do it, albiet a lot less frequently.

Re: Why can\'t i go a session without making a mistake?
 

Who here doesn't make mistakes almost every time they play? THey may be huge or very subtle ones but everyone makes them and those who say they never do probably make the biogger ones. I can think of 2 right off the bat that I made the very last time I played live. Small ones but hey, it is part of playing and hopefully learning by them. I am trying to limit them but it is work. Try to make the best decisions you can but don't beat up on yourself when you don't just rememeber them.

Re: Why can\'t i go a session without making a mistake?
 

[ QUOTE ]
if you never made a mistake you'd be playing in the big games and crusing in the money. as long as you realize u did something wrong that counts a lot as there are players out there that do things their whole playing lives without even realizing that it is wrong. that is what seperates the winners from the losers.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree with this.

I played live last night, and seeing as how it is so much slower than online I really was able to analyze things more. I counted 2 mistakes that I made, but I was able to recognize them (which is important), so hopefully I will not make them again next time. I must have counted 20 mistakes by other players, so I guess 2 isn't so bad.

Re: Why can\'t i go a session without making a mistake?
 

How long are your sessions? I am also a 2-tabler and I try to limit my sessions to 2 hours. Anything past that and my concentration falls off badly.

After ending a session, I also try to wait 30 minutes before starting another session. I make it a point to get some exercise or do something non-poker related.

Re: Why can\'t i go a session without making a mistake?
 

Why can't i go an orbit without making a mistake?

Re: Why can\'t i go a session without making a mistake?
 

Can you group your mistakes into one general area or are they across the board? That might lead you to figure out why you are making these mistakes.

Re: Why can\'t i go a session without making a mistake?
 

Just pretend we are WATCHING EVERY HAND YOU PLAY. You'll scare yourself into playing well. That's what worked for me. I just pretended that some of my decent friends had a pocket cam. When I was about to do something stupid I'd hear thier voice...

Re: Why can\'t i go a session without making a mistake?
 

I do play better when there's someone at the tale I know. I don't want to make a stupid play then.

Re: Why can\'t i go a session without making a mistake?
 

[ QUOTE ]
I don't know why you do it. I do it too. Maybe we should be glad we don't do it more?

The subject of "Tilt" may be a lot more complex than most people think. There's a book called, "Inside the Poker Mind" by psychologist/poker player John Feeney that you might find an interesting read. He talks about "subtle, unrecognized tilt," and defines "tilt" as occurring any time you make a play based on emotion of any kind; a play you might otherwise not make.

This is a lot more than blowing off your BR or throwing your cards at the dealer. It's the subtle little things like what you are describing.

And I think, having read it, that we ALL tilt some, even Phil Ivey!! [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] Maybe we're best served by trying to understand it and manage it.

You might want to take a look at that book. Personally, I found it very helpful.

bill c

[/ QUOTE ]

I second that! Once I got past the basics of strategy, Inside the Poker Mind and Theory of Poker made the biggest impact on my EV. It's interesting to me that poker isn't necessarily about having the best skills/knowledge, it's about having better skills/knowledge than most others. I always look for poker tips where others might not think to look. In my mind, John Feeneys book has gone overlooked, and up until I came here have never even heard anybody else mention it (Death Donkey actually mentioned it in his Well post in the Micros).

Re: Why can\'t i go a session without making a mistake?
 

I played a perfect session today. Not a single mistake. Sat down with a huge LAG fish directly on my right and made the absolute correct decision every time the action was on me. He got up after 20 hands, and so did I.

That's my new record. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: Why can\'t i go a session without making a mistake?
 

"I typically make more than twenty plays in a session that in retrospect I think were mistakes."

-Barry Greenstein
Ace on the River, end of Chapter 25

Re: Why can\'t i go a session without making a mistake?
 

poker is hard as hell, that's why

Re: Why can\'t i go a session without making a mistake?
 

The guy that wins at poker is the guy that makes the second to the last mistake.

AB

Re: Why can\'t i go a session without making a mistake?
 

If you went a session without making a mistake, you would have stopped learning. Everyone makes them, and if they think they don't, its only because they don't recognize them.

The trick, is to not repeat them especially in the same session, where people might take advantage of them, AND to try and remember the mistakes you made in this session, so if a similar looking situation occurs, you can take advantage of your opponent trying to take advantage of the mistake that he thinks you are making.

I like to think that when I play well, I win, because I play well, and if I don't play well, I win because I don't play as poorly as my opponents think I do.

Re: Why can\'t i go a session without making a mistake?
 

I believe Phil Ivey even said everytime he plays he makes mistakes.

you're human, and smart enough to see error, and so you're better off than someone who erroneously thinks he plays perfectly all the time.

But dont get in the habit of hindsight self-criticism. You can berate yourself to death on hands that in reality were probably close decisions. Finding error in poker is real easy when you have all the information. If we all had esp we'd never make "mistakes." You have to clearly draw the line between real mistakes and things that only became mistakes after all the information was revealed to you.

-J

Re: Why can\'t i go a session without making a mistake?
 

very good posts which make me confident not to be the ultimate superdonk, as i always make mistakes in a session. sometimes small mistakes, sometimes bigger:

villain limps utg, average stake, i cover him. i raise 66 in middle position, he calls. flop 632 rainbow. he checks, i bet pot, he calls. turn A. he checks, i bet 3/4 pot, he calls. river paired the 3. i bet 1/3 pot, he reraises pot, and i go all in for about 1/3 of the pot. he showed me AA.

in retro, his rockets were so f**** obvious. i just didnt thought it throuh on the river, i saw my hand and pushed the button. this hand is about 6 weeks ago, it is in my mind every single day since.

my reasons for playing bad are: lack of concentration, boredness, but the most occuring is when i have a big hand. then i am not thinking long, i just push it. i react just too quick. and those are always the big pots!

we just have to think about our mistakes and one after the other will disappear, probably very slowly.

Re: Why can\'t i go a session without making a mistake?
 

[ QUOTE ]
poker is hard as hell, that's why

[/ QUOTE ]

Ain't that the truth!

That's why it so profitable.

Re: Why can\'t i go a session without making a mistake?
 

[ QUOTE ]
I play a decent standard of poker, and i'm sure i am a winning player and my stats and results read good.

BUT, why do i keep making 1 or 2 mistakes in say a 2 hour session. I'm not saying i don't make other mistakes as i'm not Phil Ivey. What i'm talking about are mistakes where i know what to do but for some reason i make a different play and realise its the wrong play as soon as ive made it.

SOOO frustrating as i know its eating away slowly at my win rate.

Is this common? Is it rare to go a session without making what should be easily avoidable mistakes.

[/ QUOTE ]

You need a process. I play mostly live limit while using the internet to learn new games at micro-levels. When I play on the internet, I always make a lot more mistakes than when I play live. As a result, my internet winrate is about half of what my live winrate is.

However, you have to realize that not only can you never completely eliminate mistakes when you play, but you also have to be able to understand that there are different kinds of mistakes. Forgetting to count a backdoor draw as an out is a small mistake. Capping the river with two pair without realizing that there is a possible straight can be a big mistake. However, capping the flop with top two pair against a maniac who just happened to get lucky and flop a set on that hand is not a mistake.

I was going to say that I make about twenty to twenty five mistakes a session, but then I read the quote from Barry Greenstein. I'll amend that a bit for humor's sake. In the game I play, I make 20 to 25 mistakes a session. If was playing against Barry Greenstein, I'd probably make 20 to 25 mistakes a hand.

I use what I like to call "the big four" when making decisions. All of my decisions are based on these "big four" questions in this order.

What are my pot odds? If you aren't to the point where your brain automatically calculates pot odds even when partially distracted, you have work to do on your game. In LHE, my brain doesn't automatically adjust to the 3-bet like it does to a 2-bet or a 4-bet. It's something I have to work on. My reasoning is simple. I make mistakes when calculating math in my head, and miscalculating pot odds is a huge mistake. This should be automatic whether you are playing LHE or NLHE.

How many opponents are in the hand? The more opponents there are, the greater the chance is that fewer of your outs are good. If you're holding two overs with an open ender, and there are two flush cards on the table, you'll be lucky to have more than six outs against six opponents, but there is a good chance that you could have as many as 21 outs if you're heads up.

What could my opponent(s) possibly have? This goes along with level 3 and level 4 thinking. What does my opponent think I have, and what does my opponent think that I think he has? In LHE, I tend to stick with the first two questions. In NLHE, I ask the third question to myself a lot, but that doesn't mean I always get the right answer.

With everything above considered, how many outs do I have? Even if I think I'm in the lead, I'll be looking at redraw possibilities and backdoor draws.

And then I make my decision. Believe it or not, after time, you will get good enough at asking yourself these questions so that it will take mere moments to make your decisions.

Re: Why can\'t i go a session without making a mistake?
 

[ QUOTE ]
You need a process. I play mostly live limit while using the internet to learn new games at micro-levels. When I play on the internet, I always make a lot more mistakes than when I play live. As a result, my internet winrate is about half of what my live winrate is.

However, you have to realize that not only can you never completely eliminate mistakes when you play, but you also have to be able to understand that there are different kinds of mistakes. Forgetting to count a backdoor draw as an out is a small mistake. Capping the river with two pair without realizing that there is a possible straight can be a big mistake. However, capping the flop with top two pair against a maniac who just happened to get lucky and flop a set on that hand is not a mistake.

I was going to say that I make about twenty to twenty five mistakes a session, but then I read the quote from Barry Greenstein. I'll amend that a bit for humor's sake. In the game I play, I make 20 to 25 mistakes a session. If was playing against Barry Greenstein, I'd probably make 20 to 25 mistakes a hand.

I use what I like to call "the big four" when making decisions. All of my decisions are based on these "big four" questions in this order.

What are my pot odds? If you aren't to the point where your brain automatically calculates pot odds even when partially distracted, you have work to do on your game. In LHE, my brain doesn't automatically adjust to the 3-bet like it does to a 2-bet or a 4-bet. It's something I have to work on. My reasoning is simple. I make mistakes when calculating math in my head, and miscalculating pot odds is a huge mistake. This should be automatic whether you are playing LHE or NLHE.

How many opponents are in the hand? The more opponents there are, the greater the chance is that fewer of your outs are good. If you're holding two overs with an open ender, and there are two flush cards on the table, you'll be lucky to have more than six outs against six opponents, but there is a good chance that you could have as many as 21 outs if you're heads up.

What could my opponent(s) possibly have? This goes along with level 3 and level 4 thinking. What does my opponent think I have, and what does my opponent think that I think he has? In LHE, I tend to stick with the first two questions. In NLHE, I ask the third question to myself a lot, but that doesn't mean I always get the right answer.

With everything above considered, how many outs do I have? Even if I think I'm in the lead, I'll be looking at redraw possibilities and backdoor draws.

And then I make my decision. Believe it or not, after time, you will get good enough at asking yourself these questions so that it will take mere moments to make your decisions.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is an outstanding post. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: Why can\'t i go a session without making a mistake?
 

[ QUOTE ]

You need a process. I play mostly live limit while using the internet to learn new games at micro-levels. When I play on the internet, I always find many fewer retarded players than when I play live. As a result, my internet winrate is about half of what my live winrate is.


[/ QUOTE ]

FYP

Re: Why can\'t i go a session without making a mistake?
 

[ QUOTE ]
villain limps utg, average stake, i cover him. i raise 66 in middle position, he calls. flop 632 rainbow. he checks, i bet pot, he calls. turn A. he checks, i bet 3/4 pot, he calls. river paired the 3. i bet 1/3 pot, he reraises pot, and i go all in for about 1/3 of the pot. he showed me AA.


[/ QUOTE ]

I think I get stacked here on the internet. I can't lay down a boat, especially a boat where the only two hands that have you beat are AA and 66. This is the point where I'd say, "nice catch" and move on. Don't beat yourself up about getting stacked with the third nut hand.

Re: Why can\'t i go a session without making a mistake?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

You need a process. I play mostly live limit while using the internet to learn new games at micro-levels. When I play on the internet, I always find many fewer retarded players than when I play live. As a result, my internet winrate is about half of what my live winrate is.


[/ QUOTE ]

FYP

[/ QUOTE ]

This made me laugh. Thank you:)