Please berate my fishy play and suggest a better line!
 

live 3/6

Hero dealt 4 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 4 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] in MP1.

UTG, UTG+1 call, Hero calls, BN calls, SB raises, BB and limpers all call.

Flop: 5 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 4 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 3 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

SB bets, BB, UTG fold, UTG+1 raises, Hero calls, BN calls, SB calls.

Turn: 3 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]
SB checks, UTG+1 bets, Hero calls, BN calls, SB calls.

River: 9 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
SB, UTG+1 check, Hero bets, BN, SB fold, UTG+1 calls.

I really just need to 3-bet the flop, don't I? As played on the flop, do you go for overcalls not wanting to blow straight drawers out of the pot with a monster and the bet coming from my right, or am I still playing too cute for my own good?

SB raises more than your average 3/6 player pre-flop but shuts down quickly to any aggression (goes into calldown mode immediately to a flop raise on a completely innocuous board with KK). UTG+1 seems to raise thin on the flop a lot.

Re: Please berate my fishy play and suggest a better line!
 

Bet and raise at every opportunity, especially after you fill up.

There are a ton of draws on the board, and people may have a straight, so you'll get lots of action.

Don't hesitate to ram-and-jam on the flop in smallish pots when you have a monster, especially live. They'll call you down no matter what.

No worries, no one ever said poker was easy (cause it's damn hard.)

Re: Please berate my fishy play and suggest a better line!
 

I didn't realize the SB raised PF.

Definitely go nuts on the flop. Get giddy. Flex your muscles before you start heaving chips into the middle as quickly as you can. You're (probably) going to win a monster pot.

Re: Please berate my fishy play and suggest a better line!
 

I think the biggest mistake was not raising the turn. Its likely that SB likes their hand and won't want to let it go and UTG+1 might even be nice and 3-bet you so you can cap it.

I guess you should 3-bet the flop, but I don't think your call there was as bad as not raising the turn. I could easily be wrong though, I haven't thought it all the way through.

Edit: You didn't play it badly, I think you just missed a couple of bets. Something we all do.

Re: Please berate my fishy play and suggest a better line!
 

With a set on a 3-straight board, you should raise at every opportunity, especially after making the boat. Nobody live is folding an A, 2, 6, 5, or overpair to any number of bets on the flop. You might lose the A's on the turn, but the 2's and 6's are in for the long haul.

Re: Please berate my fishy play and suggest a better line!
 

[ QUOTE ]
live 3/6

Hero dealt 4 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 4 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] in MP1.

UTG, UTG+1 call, Hero calls, BN calls, SB raises, BB and limpers all call.

Flop: 5 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 4 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 3 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

SB bets, BB, UTG fold, UTG+1 raises, Hero calls, BN calls, SB calls.

Turn: 3 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]
SB checks, UTG+1 bets, Hero calls, BN calls, SB calls.

River: 9 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
SB, UTG+1 check, Hero bets, BN, SB fold, UTG+1 calls.

I really just need to 3-bet the flop, don't I? As played on the flop, do you go for overcalls not wanting to blow straight drawers out of the pot with a monster and the bet coming from my right, or am I still playing too cute for my own good?

SB raises more than your average 3/6 player pre-flop but shuts down quickly to any aggression (goes into calldown mode immediately to a flop raise on a completely innocuous board with KK). UTG+1 seems to raise thin on the flop a lot.

[/ QUOTE ]

*grunch*

3 bet the flop and the turn. The river's fine.

Re: Please berate my fishy play and suggest a better line!
 

How about raising?

Really, this is a pretty easy raise on the flop. You have a set, the board is pretty connected, and the pot is pretty large(15SB to you). You have a strong hand, so raise.

Given that you didn't raise the flop, raise the turn.

Really what happened is you slowplayed in a large pot. That is pretty silly.

Re: Please berate my fishy play and suggest a better line!
 

I think the board is coordinated enough to raise the flop. If not, I would surely raise the turn.

Re: Please berate my fishy play and suggest a better line!
 

Yup, that's what I thought. Too scared of losing calling station customers when I should be pushing.

Re: Please berate my fishy play and suggest a better line!
 

Raise flop, Raise Turn. It's f'ing 3/6 for god sakes. Don't get cute, bet and win thier money.

Re: Please berate my fishy play and suggest a better line!
 

Slowplaying a 3-6 game with a large pot and the pretty nutty (probable nuts) hand is pointless. Most 3-6 live players have gained one real concept: Pot Odds. If they feel like they have the pot odds, they will draw to the hand (most of them haven't even thought about implied or in this case reverse implied odds). All they will see is that they have a straight draw and the pot warrants a call ("YAY! I get to play!"). Players drawing dead is a HUGE advantage to you, you need to force them to pay when your advantage is at it's largest. Raise, ReRaise and CAP it all the way with a board like this. Hands like these in situations like these don't come around often, you need to make the most of them when they do:)

DW

Re: Please berate my fishy play and suggest a better line!
 

Just raise, man. And don't stop raising. Nobody w/ a two or a 6 are going to fold the flop, and probably not a 7 either, in addition to other pair hands that won't fold.

Re: Please berate my fishy play and suggest a better line!
 

[ QUOTE ]
Most 3-6 live players have gained one real concept: Pot Odds. If they feel like they have the pot odds, they will draw to the hand (most of them haven't even thought about implied or in this case reverse implied odds).

[/ QUOTE ]

Good post, but I disagree with this. Most 3-6 players like to call. Most don't have a clue about pot odds. Some of them are so clue-less about pot odds but are so against "chasing" that they'll fold when they're getting huge odds.

Re: Please berate my fishy play and suggest a better line!
 

Good post, but I disagree with this. Most 3-6 players like to call. Most don't have a clue about pot odds. Some of them are so clue-less about pot odds but are so against "chasing" that they'll fold when they're getting huge odds.

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Well, I think that depends on where/when you play. I think most 3-6 players have some kind intuitive grasp on pot odds. I don't think they are calculating them, but I think at least half of the 3-6 live players have the general idea that if the pot is big (or some just count the players instead) they can draw to a long shot. They can pick up that much simply by watching TV. Then, of course you have the other players that still believe "it's foolish to chase after an inside straight". Those are usually the weak-tight players, usually older in age that have been playing by the same weak-tight rules for so long that they will probably never change.

My main point was that in this situation, even the "skilled" 3-6 players would probably never lay down a draw because usually their skills stop at pot odds. For the unskilled players who play every draw regardless, well that's even more of a reason to hit em hard. Slowplaying in a typical 3-6 live game is pointless unless you are up against a table full of AARP members(American Association of Retired Peoples). I wouldn't even think about whipping out a slowplay until I hit a 10-20 or 20-40, and even then it would be situational.

In almost all situations at 3-6, you just aren't going to lose that many overcalls by raising and certainly not often enough to offset missing that extra bet. (Most of them will call two bets cold, especially into a large pot, they don't even stop to think they could be drawing dead).

I know you probably know all of this stuff but I wanted to restate my point more clearly. Thanks for your comments.

DW

Re: Please berate my fishy play and suggest a better line!
 

Yeah, you need to 3-bet that preflop. Even if you raise, anyone with a 6 or a 2 is getting proper pot odds to hit an open ender. You need to make them pay as much as possible. Besides that, there are a lot of scare cards on the turn that might prompt your opponents to fold.

The turn play can be debated, but I prefer to raise here too simply because there are hands that will call you. You might even get three bet if you're lucky.

Re: Please berate my fishy play and suggest a better line!
 

Nothing in the realm of poker gives me stronger wood then when I have a table full of loose players, most of them in the hand, and the player to the right of me three bets me into my probably nuts. Once those suckers are in for one bet they will be in for a cap. I've worked on my poker face since then but when I was just starting out in live poker, I looked something like this [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

DW

Re: Please berate my fishy play and suggest a better line!
 

*grunch*

I wouldn't consider your set a monster here. There are lots of hands that you'd like to see fold here, and 3-betting will fold quite a few of these. The general rule is to just win the big pots as immediately as you can. Plus, those straight draws are getting about the right odds to continue, which you definately don't want.

The turn is an OK slowplay, though, since there are now lots of second best hands that can be made that will probably pay you off pretty good if they connect.

Re: Please berate my fishy play and suggest a better line!
 

[ QUOTE ]
In almost all situations at 3-6, you just aren't going to lose that many overcalls by raising and certainly not often enough to offset missing that extra bet. (Most of them will call two bets cold, especially into a large pot, they don't even stop to think they could be drawing dead).

[/ QUOTE ]

Very true. But one thing I'm careful of is when raising the flop will gain you an extra bet per player on the flop, but lose you an extra bet per player on the turn (I don't think this situation applies to the OP due to the position of the flop raiser). There are a large number of 3/6 players that take the 'hit some sort of hand and do the bet until raised then call to showdown' type of line. There are definite situations where you want to just call these players on the flop (forgoing some small bets) so that they'll continue to bet the turn and then you can nail the callers for extra big bets.

I think this post is fairly pointless since it isn't really relevant to the OP, but I started writing it and now its done.

Re: Please berate my fishy play and suggest a better line!
 

Preflop: Eh, okay - worth a limp I think.

FLOP: with mid set on that drawy board, I 3 bet/cap this flop every time.

TURN: Since you have 2 players after you I don't mind going for overcalls here, if you're sure they call and fold to your raise.

One of my leaks is too much aggression, when you have the nuts in EP/MP I think you can make more being passive. But if you think at least one (like SB) calls here, then you should raise this turn.

River: what more can you do.



Cliff's notes: Flop is a 3bet/cap. Raise turn depending on read, Otherwise goot.

AB

Edit: After reading a few posts here, My suggestion of smooth calling turn is to let drawing hands behind you make their hand, for fun and profit on the river. Most drawing hands are calling one bet here, but most will fold for 2. If you fold out those behind you, you get one extra bet from UTG, who undoubtedly checks the river, and may pay one more there.


If you smooth call turn raise, it's more likely that you get drawing hands to call behind (you still get 1 or perhaps even 2 more bets), giving them a chance to make a hand that you can crush.

I smooth call this turn unless BTN and SB are so fishy they call 2 cold, or so tight they fold for one any way. Otherwise let them draw cheap.

All IMO

AB