Bullets at the Bellagio
 

This hand occurred at about 6 am in the Bellagio poker room on Wednesday morning. My sleep schedule was F'd so I was totally fresh, but most people seemed stuck or wavering. Main villain in this hand was an older, apparently Bell-regular white guy who seemed to play tight/weak in the 30 mins he'd been there. He had clearly just woken up for the day and prob does this regularly to pray on degenerates. Anyway, here's the hand.

It's folded to me and I open in the cutoff with A [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]A [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]. I had been raising a lot lately, generally taking pots without a showdown. The SB, a tough regular player, makes it three bets. Main villain the BB coldcalls, something I'd yet to see him do. I four-bet and both players called.

The flop came K [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]7 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]8 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]. SB checks, BB checks, I bet, SB check-raises, BB coldcalls, I reraise, SB calls and now BB comes alive and makes it four-bets. This is a crappy situation for me in that I'm probably torched by a set, but I can't fold yet. I guess it's possible he has something like K8s for two pair which I have outs against, but it seems likely he'd fold that preflop. A huge flush draw is possible, but I'm not sure he'd jam it like that (I think he would if it was something like KQs for a pair/draw combo). Anyway, my gut said set, but I realize there are other possibilities since I don't know him totally and the pot is big so I feel I should protect my hand in case it's good or in case I can draw out. So I make it five bets to hopefully drive out the SB. It works and he folds with some irritation. The BB calls.

The turn brings the 9 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]. My opponent checked and I checked behind. The river brought the lovely 10 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]. BB bet and I folded. What would you have done on a relative brick river card? Comments on flop/turn appreciated.

Jeff

Re: Bullets at the Bellagio
 

if the river bricked off were you going to call his river bet? 100% he will bet the river when u check the turn imo.

if you were going to call blank rivers, then the turn is an easy bet fold to a raise.

Re: Bullets at the Bellagio
 

Jeff, I think think your writing skills got the better of you with this post. I opened it and moved on. Came back when I couldn't believe the lack of responses. As played a fold. What do you beat? A's cracked again.

Playing mucho 30-60 stud lately. Wish it was half as easy holdem. The difference between the games from where you started on the first bet and where you stand on the third bet is unbelievably in favor of stud.

Re: Bullets at the Bellagio
 

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Jeff, I think think your writing skills got the better of you with this post.

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I don't know what this means - too long? My bad.

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As played a fold. What do you beat? A's cracked again.

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Yea, I don't think the river play is debatable. I was curious about the flop/turn play and if you'd pay off a blank river. I sort of lean against it against this guy even w/o the scary river because I beat nothing. I didn't intend the post to be a bad-beat post - I've lost with aces before, no big. I was just curious about the flop/turn action and whether people auto pay a blank turn card.

Jeff

Re: Bullets at the Bellagio
 

i play the flop the same and i call a river blank. people do stupid things at random times. simple/canned response, but its true enough.

Re: Bullets at the Bellagio
 

Yea, I likely would have paid off, but just didn't know if it made sense since it goes against my read. But you are right, people are random, and it is one bet in a big pot.

Jeff

Re: Bullets at the Bellagio
 

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Yea, I likely would have paid off, but just didn't know if it made sense since it goes against my read. But you are right, people are random, and it is one bet in a big pot.

Jeff

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was this in 30 or 100 btw?

Re: Bullets at the Bellagio
 

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I was curious about the flop/turn play

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I was too. I'd play it the same. Yeah, too long for initial post. Save some for follow-up thoughts.

Re: Bullets at the Bellagio
 

30. I never saw a 100 there, the only thing I saw was one 60-120 game on a couple of nights, but I didn't get a chance to play.

Jeff

Re: Bullets at the Bellagio
 

I think you played the hand quite well. I tend to like the flop line more if it's made with the intention of trying to see a showdown for one more big bet, but it's a thin call to begin with, and bailing out once some awful cards hit the board is good, mature hold 'em.

Re: Bullets at the Bellagio
 

[ QUOTE ]
the pot is big so I feel I should protect my hand in case it's good or in case I can draw out. So I make it five bets to hopefully drive out the SB.

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FLOP: Given your description of the BB, your hand sux so much that I dont think its worth trying to protect with a 5bet. Although I do like the spirit of your play as far as the notion that in many situations it's important to protect your hand even when you feel you are a significant underdog to be best. When the pot gets large, having the best hand "sometimes" is usually enough reason to play aggressively and go into protection mode. However when the BB, whom you described as weak/tight coldcalls the flop check/raise in a very precarious position knowing that you could 3bet behind him, and then he caps the flop when it comes back to him, I dont think your hand will be good often enough here even in this very large pot to worry about protecting. So I prefer calling the flop 4bet.

TURN: As CDC said, if youre going to call a blank river, then you should bet/fold this turn. If you were intending to fold on a blank river then I like your turn play. I personally think the best play on the turn is to check it with the intentions of folding the river unless you improve to aces up or top set. The reason I say this is your only hope was that this guy was getting fancy with a combo flush draw, and that hope died on the turn so theres no reason in my mind to commit another bet to this pot UI.

RIVER: You have two choices on the river and calling is not one of them. If you think this guy will bet/fold 2pair or a set on the river then a bluff raise should atleast be considered. In general, the vast majority of poker players dont make this kind of fold. In fact most wouldnt even dare bet this river with a 2pair/set hand especially a weak/tight player. So folding the river is the clear best play in my mind.

Re: Bullets at the Bellagio
 

No one has yet suggested that the BB could be playing AK this way. Not everyone auto caps AK, even against late position raisers. Since he flopped good and may not automatically put either of you on a set or AA (since he's holding an A).

Once he sees you two going nuts he may assume you're humping good draws and he decides to protect himself. Like you he may be looking to get to showdown cheap and/or planning to check raise the turn.

As the board played out, I'd fold the river too, but if a brick hit, I'd call.

I'm not saying AK is the most likely holding, but it fits the play, especially if the A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] is in his hand. His flop action can then be seen as a straight value play modified from a planned turn check raise.

Re: Bullets at the Bellagio
 

I think it's possible he'd just call preflop with the AK. But he would likely play the flop differently, either reraising when SB checkraised or betting right into me with a plan to reraise. I don't think he would do the superman thing, coldcalling a checkraise and then four-betting when it comes back to him with only one pair. He could four-bet a huge draw on the flop after coldcalling once, but if he did, he got there. And I don't really see him doing that in the first place.

At the table, I didn't think there was much chance he had only one pair on the flop.

Jeff

Re: Bullets at the Bellagio
 

Raise the river?

not sure about the river . . .
 

I haven't read all the responses yet, but I might have to call this river bet. Even if he is truly weak/tight/nitish as you describe, I think I have to put the 1 bet in on the end of this big pot.

The only reason I say this is because so many people will interpret you turn check as total weakness and/or a-no-spade in-your-hand-hand so that they have to fire at the end knowing that you know that the way they played the hand earlier (with real strength) there is no way you are gonna call without something extremely strong and that there is no way that turn and/or river didnt help him.

I'm not saying folding isnt correct, but when factoring in the pot odds and also gaining info from a relatively unknown opponent who played the hand in a reasonably unconventional manner, I personally would look him up.

TSP

Re: Bullets at the Bellagio
 

Just curious, what's a "Bell-regular?" If a brick came on the river, I would have called (albeit reluctantly). BB may
have a set, and bet the river figuring you didn't donk the turn because you don't have the spade ace.

Re: Bullets at the Bellagio
 

I don't think that we could give you a 'cookbook'answer as to what the right play would be if he bet a blank river into you.It's close enough that you would have to be there & get a read.But I would be more inclined to call.

Re: Bullets at the Bellagio
 

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Raise the river?

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This was my first thought, too. If this guy is weak/tight, he may bet/fold a set here, and you could be taking a free card with the nfd on the turn. What is the pot at this point, 15 or 20BB? If he does have a set without a flush this board is going to make him want to puke.

Re: Bullets at the Bellagio
 

Hey folks - typing this from AC. I don't think this guy bets the river without a strong flush. He doesn't seem the type to bet-fold a set here but does seem the type to always go for a turn checkraise after the flop action rather than bet-three bet. Ok, back to gambling.

Jeff