Set - value bet or check behind against 4 opponents and drawy board
 

Preflop: Hero is Button with 10 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 10 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
Hero raises pre-flop, with 5-6 callers.

Flop: 10 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 7 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 3 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]
MP bets, 3 callers, Hero raises, all 4 players call.

Turn: 4 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
Line Check. I decide to check behind on button fearing a check-raise, since one of my 4 opponents HAS to have 2 diamonds, right? Hoping to fill up on river cheaply.


River: J [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]
Check, check, check, check. Value bet or check behind?

Comments on turn and river appreciated.

Re: Set - value bet or check behind against 4 opponents and drawy boar
 

I bet the turn every time here, I want all draws to pay to see the river. Even if someone does have two diamonds you have lottsa outs for the full house.

I bet/call the river every time here too. A made flush would have led out having missed the turn check/raise, I think a better hand would have led out too with the turn checking round.

GcluelessnoobG

Re: Set - value bet or check behind against 4 opponents and drawy boar
 

bet turn and bet river.

Re: Set - value bet or check behind against 4 opponents and drawy boar
 

bet, bet.

Re: Set - value bet or check behind against 4 opponents and drawy board
 

grunch

the turn check sucks. Bet until someone raises.

Re: Set - value bet or check behind against 4 opponents and drawy board
 

[ QUOTE ]
I decide to check behind on button fearing a check-raise, since one of my 4 opponents HAS to have 2 diamonds, right?

[/ QUOTE ]
Apparently, you'd be surprised. It's something to consider if you get raised though of course. Any opponent with a lone diamond now must pay to see the river. Bet that turn.

Re: Set - value bet or check behind against 4 opponents and drawy boar
 

Bet turn and bet/call river. Even against a made flush, you have a huge redraw, and you don't want A or K of diamonds to draw for free.

Re: Set - value bet or check behind against 4 opponents and drawy boar
 

[ QUOTE ]
Bet turn and bet/call river. Even against a made flush, you have a huge redraw, and you don't want A or K of diamonds to draw for free.

[/ QUOTE ]
I was debating the degree of sarcasm I was going to put into this response. Since we're arguing different points, I've decided on this:

Our hand is vulnerable to a lot more cards than just the A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]. So protect it. Bet the turn.

Re: Set - value bet or check behind against 4 opponents and drawy board
 

Bet the turn.

Bet the river.

Collect.

Re: Set - value bet or check behind against 4 opponents and drawy board
 

If the turn makes a flush or str8, you'd hear about it on that street. No reason to fear the C/R as you bave a bunch of outs (10) for a boat on the river.

You were last to act on the river. No one with a flush (or either unlikely str8) would let this check through without betting. Bet for value.

bc

Re: Set - value bet or check behind against 4 opponents and drawy boar
 

The river is an outrageously easy bet, and you really need to be betting the river as well.

Re: Set - value bet or check behind against 4 opponents and drawy boar
 

[ QUOTE ]
The river is an outrageously easy bet, and you really need to be betting the river as well.

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hmmmmmm.....

Re: Set - value bet or check behind against 4 opponents and drawy boar
 

wow, bet the turn, bet the river. that is playing scared.

Re: Set - value bet or check behind against 4 opponents and drawy boar
 

I probably check turn against three opponents, but river is easy easy bet.

Re: Set - value bet or check behind against 4 opponents and drawy boar
 

[ QUOTE ]
I probably check turn against three opponents, but river is easy easy bet.

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please don't!

Re: Set - value bet or check behind against 4 opponents and drawy board
 

Wow...maybe I'm a bit aggressive but on a loose small stakes table you can get action with anything. Three diamonds doesn't mean anybody's got a flush, but if you let somebody draw cheaply to that 4th diamond you have made a HUGE mistake in terms of EV. If somebody has hit their flush you have 10 outs for a boat. If you are check-raised, then at least you know where you stand and you can check-call the river. I think charging somebody for that 1 card flush draw is much more important then fearing one more bet on the turn, especially considering you have a nice re-draw. Especially with top set, I raise until they won't let me anymore..then I try to raise some more [img]/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img]

Re: Set - value bet or check behind against 4 opponents and drawy board
 

Sets are kinda funny. They are very strong hands, but not so strong that they will hold up to a slowplay (not that you should be slowplaying anything in a weak small stakes game). In addition, their redraws are HUGE, and most people with the nut flush in a small stakes game might even re-raise you if you hit your boat. HUGE EV when you are playing agianst fish. I love flopping sets, I would actually much rather flop a top set then I would a flush and a hell of a lot more then I would a straight. I always win bigger pots and I feel like I win more often (that second part could be psychological though, I have no facts on that).

DW

Re: Set - value bet or check behind against 4 opponents and drawy board
 

*grunch*

Always, always value bet. I see at least eight big bets in the pot on the turn, and you just can't let someone draw out on you for free. Even if you get check-raised, you have a ten out draw to beat someone with a flush.

Bet the river. I don't know if I fold to a check-raise here. It would have to be a super tricky opponent capable of checking a flush twice. Hope someone didn't fill up with 98.

Re: Set - value bet or check behind against 4 opponents and drawy board
 

I'd bet the turn nearly always. I'd only check if I stroke out in the middle of the hand and am having trouble clicking my mouse. Even then, I'll probably bet the turn about half the time.

Re: Set - value bet or check behind against 4 opponents and drawy boar
 

[ QUOTE ]
Preflop: Hero is Button with 10 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 10 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
Hero raises pre-flop, with 5-6 callers.

Flop: 10 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 7 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 3 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]
MP bets, 3 callers, Hero raises, all 4 players call.

Turn: 4 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
Line Check. I decide to check behind on button fearing a check-raise, since one of my 4 opponents HAS to have 2 diamonds, right? Hoping to fill up on river cheaply.


River: J [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]
Check, check, check, check. Value bet or check behind?

Comments on turn and river appreciated.

[/ QUOTE ]

Someone has the nuts. Prob better to just open fold!

Re: Set - value bet or check behind against 4 opponents and drawy board
 

There are all kinds of lines and reasoning why you could play this hand the way you did or another way.

The benefits to checking behind on the turn are you avoid having to pay two bets when behind. The disadvantages are you give a free card miss money when you are ahead.

The paradox about this situation is that the more players in, the more money you stand to win by betting, but the more likely someone has drawn a flush and that you are actually behind. The less players in, the less likely you are behind, but the less money you stand to make by betting, and the more you will lose theoretically, if behind.

So as you can see, this is usually a close decision. The factors I use to swing me one way or another are: in the absence of any other information, always bet and call a raise. If you pick up tells that indicate someone is trapping, and if that tell seems genuine, and the players are better caliber and know that you will usually bet, and if there arent many players, consider checking. However, if the players are poor and exhibiting alot of fake out moves, usually always bet. Checking the best hand here against more than two opponents is probably more of a mistake then betting the second best hand with a redraw to improve to the best hand.

As far as your river check, I think this is pretty bad. You have a whole field checking to you twice and you have a very good hand. I would bet everytime. Nobody with a hand that beats you is going to risk checking it thru on the river, unless they are total timid types that would check a flush or straight twice. Unless you see some of these types in the lineup, always bet.

-J

Re: Set - value bet or check behind against 4 opponents and drawy board
 

way to play scared poker.

who cares if they have the flush, you have top set. bet, get check raised, river a boat, raise the river.


bet the turn, bet the river.

I will give you a tip: You won't have the nuts on the river everytime, but you are still going to have to bet.

Re: Set - value bet or check behind against 4 opponents and drawy boar
 

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I probably check turn against three opponents, but river is easy easy bet.

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you probably suck at poker though

Re: Set - value bet or check behind against 4 opponents and drawy board
 

[ QUOTE ]
There are all kinds of lines and reasoning why you could play this hand the way you did or another way.

The benefits to checking behind on the turn are you avoid having to pay two bets when behind. The disadvantages are you give a free card miss money when you are ahead.

The paradox about this situation is that the more players in, the more money you stand to win by betting, but the more likely someone has drawn a flush and that you are actually behind. The less players in, the less likely you are behind, but the less money you stand to make by betting, and the more you will lose theoretically, if behind.

So as you can see, this is usually a close decision. The factors I use to swing me one way or another are: in the absence of any other information, always bet and call a raise. If you pick up tells that indicate someone is trapping, and if that tell seems genuine, and the players are better caliber and know that you will usually bet, and if there arent many players, consider checking. However, if the players are poor and exhibiting alot of fake out moves, usually always bet. Checking the best hand here against more than two opponents is probably more of a mistake then betting the second best hand with a redraw to improve to the best hand.

As far as your river check, I think this is pretty bad. You have a whole field checking to you twice and you have a very good hand. I would bet everytime. Nobody with a hand that beats you is going to risk checking it thru on the river, unless they are total timid types that would check a flush or straight twice. Unless you see some of these types in the lineup, always bet.

-J

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I would check here with AK, that's about it. If I have AA or KK or QQ no diamond, I just bet fold.

You have top set, there is nothing to think about. If you get check raise, so what.

You cannot give a free card to all those baby diamonds or gutshots. Also, you lose so much value when someone has a smaller set or two pair and they will never fold.

Checking the turn here is teh suck

Re: Set - value bet or check behind against 4 opponents and drawy boar
 

Thanks for the advice. i agree i should have bet turn. and i did actually bet the river, by the way.

- i was also up against 4 opponents on the turn and river, not 3, if that matters at all...

- I often see in these live 3/6 games early position players with a baby flush that plan to just check/call. i agree, i played some scared poker there on the turn. But my dilemma is that in the super loose, passive 3/6 game that i play in, i see a lot of flushes actually get check/called in multi-way pots when they have something like 42s and hit their baby flushy.