A dream that never began...
 

Maybe this isn't the right forum to post this on, but since this is the only forum I really post on, I'll throw it out there.

BACKGROUND:
I started playing online poker approximately one year ago, so I am new to this game. I played live poker before this, but on a much more limited basis. I started playing a few months after I met Jason Strasser in a live game in NYC. We got into a pot together, and afterwards he mentioned that he played online and wondered why I did not do so.

I always thought online poker would be really boring and completely non-interactive, and that live poker was much more fun (I still kind of believe this). However, I did not realize how quickly playing online poker can increase your learning curve and how many more tools are out there for improving your play (pokertracker, pokerhand.org, PAHUD, forums, etc.). Because of these things, online poker can be very profitable. I deposited 300 into party poker, and off I was. Obviously it wasn't a smooth upward path, but it followed the path of many players on this forum, and I've moved up to the 10/20 and 10/25 levels and to higher stakes live games in the course of a year (relatively quickly IMO).

I am in my final year of law school at NYU. Throughout this time, I have seen some of the downsides to playing poker. For one, my grades have dropped. In undergrad (Harvard) and graduate school (I also have a degree in fiction writing from NYU); I did very well in school. I love to learn, and I love being a school setting where you meet tons of smart people with similar interests. That said, when you are playing 20 hours a week of online poker and chatting on IM, reading forums, etc. as a natural function the time you might spend doing other things (working out, studying, reading, writing, etc.) decreases. For example, I am pretty sure that had I not played poker, I would have finished my first novel by now (which I am about 1/2-3/4 finished with). I also think I would have been more involved in the law school community and would have read approximately 40 more books (I love to read and read about a book a week). I don't regret playing poker to such an extent, but I think about it a lot. My regard for money has certainly changed. I am a frugal person by nature, and I have started doing things like taking cabs everywhere when I would have normally taken the subway, buying a few pairs of expensive Nike Dunks, and partying at the clubs in NYC (I love seeing good hip-hop DJs like DJ AM). My girlfriend also hates the amount of time I spend playing/thinking about poker, and it actually took her a long time to accept that I even wanted to play a game that was trivial in many respects (and completely unproductive from a societal perspective). We had a lot of fights about poker in general and it has been a strain on our relationship.

Some of the positives of playing online poker include making money, refining my logical thinking, growing stronger in personal management (which I think is crucial to poker success), and meeting some great people. I have become very good friends with strassa, taylor caby (green plastic)--who I discuss a lot of potential business ideas with), andrew wiggins (muddywater), samh, whitelime, my roommate ezmogee, duck, and a bunch of others as well. They have all helped me with my game and also I have become "real" friends with them as opposed to just poker friends who I discuss hands with.

During the course of this time, I started making money playing the game. This month I made over 100k. I cashed in the PCA for approx 14k, I made a mess playing live, and a mess online. For me, this is a substantial sum of money. I know for most of the posters on this forum that's what they make/lose in a day, but I am pleased with this result. I think I could repeat this, as I am getting better all the time and have made substantial progress and will continue to improve/grow my bankroll/move up.

During my summers in law school, I worked at law firms. I really enjoyed these experiences. I got to work at large, respected firms, get taken out to lunch at the best restaurants in New York, and make some good money. Law firms just got a raise, the base for starting associates is 160k and the bonus is approximately 30-45k. That doesn't sound like much when I just made 100k this past month, but I know the variance associated with poker and that you can't win every day.

Working at a law firm in corporate law is grueling work, the hours are bad, but you are making connections, building your resume, learning things, and growing as a professional. It's a steady job with a clear progression.

Poker is not. I never really considered playing poker as a possible career choice. My girlfriend's mother thinks I should just play poker and write, and that sounded really appealing, but there are just too many things in this world that I am interested in that I don't think I would be satisfied with just playing poker. That said, poker doesn’t necessarily preclude you from doing other things, it's just that it takes up a lot of time and it might hinder your career prospects in certain fields in a time sense. I am also slightly concerned about the long-term viability of playing online.

I think online poker will be around for a while, and I'm more optimistic than most and believe it will exist in some form and perhaps be regulated in the future, but the games will certainly get tougher. From what I've heard the games are tougher than a year ago, and one year was tougher than two years ago. I'd hate to wake up 4 years later, having done nothing to further a professional career.

That said, I love being able to wake up in the morning, sprawl out on my couch, fire up my laptop, and make money! That's a pretty sweet lifestyle. I dreaded working the long hours of a law firm job, I know so many lawyers at big firms are miserable, and it kind of irked me that working as a corporate lawyer, my clients would be the ones making the real business decisions, and that I would be contributing in some sense, but my main function, especially as a young associate, would be to assist with the more technical aspects of the deal (drafting, research, etc.). I thought finance would interest me much more and I'd be more intrigued with the job. My best friend from high school works at a hedge fund, and is very successful, and we always talked about how I might do well given the right environment in that type of a job.

FINAL DECISION:
This fall, I started to make some inquiries into the hedge fund world. I touched upon a few connections, and was granted interviews at a few funds. This month I was offered a job at a start-up fund. The opportunity to me is mind-boggling. The responsibility I will be given, and the learning environment and pedigree of the fund will all be top-notch. I can't say any details, but suffice it to say the offer will be nearly impossible to turn down. The money will be significantly more than I will make as a lawyer (won't discuss actual $). The upside is also much much higher.

That said, during the past few months I also thought long and hard about being an entrepreneur. I think I would really enjoy thinking about business problems and dealing with the small details which allow you to find solutions to the bigger problems. Making something out of nothing and creating lasting value has always been greatly appealing to me. When I was in undergrad, I took a year off to start an internet business (the financing we had eventually fell through when the market crashed). I have always had an entrepreneurial spirit. That said, working at a start-up fund I will get a lot of these experiences as well, and if I ever decide to start a business down the road I know the hedge fund job will be valuable. That said, it takes a long time to grow a business and the sooner you start the sooner you can be successful (or if you fail, find something new). I am slightly worried that if I am successful at the hedge fund, and the fund does well, I will be making too much money to ever find it in me to quit and start my own thing. It's not an easy decision.

The firm encouraged me to take a few months off to study for and take the bar, so I will still have my JD, which I think is important, as a lot of things that you encounter in the hedge fund world have legal issues attached.

My role at the fund will be managerial in nature, and I will also get significant trading exposure and assist crafting trading strategies. I am pretty sure I would love doing all of those things, although I cannot say for sure because I have never worked at a hedge fund before.

I know this post is long and rambling, but if anyone has any thoughts about my decisions (poker player v. lawyer v. entrepreneur v. working at a hedge fund), I would really appreciate it.

I have learned a ton from these forums, and try and post hands that I think are difficult. I've considered 2p2 a great learning tool and appreciate all the advice.

Thanks,
dlpnyc21

Re: A dream that never began...
 

I started reading this and it seemed really interesting but it was too long.

Sounds from what Ive read that you arent all that happy with life, and I think just do what you want to do. You should have enough money to give you a cushion, should be able to continue to make some playing part time - so just do what you think will make you happy, as simple as that.

D

Re: A dream that never began...
 

what about writing? do you plan to still put a lot of time into it? i had no clue you had a degree in fiction writing (my own degree was in screenwriting). i love the flexibility afforded me by playing and coaching poker, but at the same time i couldn't do it forever.

Re: A dream that never began...
 

Congrats and I think you are making the right decision.

Re: A dream that never began...
 

[ QUOTE ]
what about writing? do you plan to still put a lot of time into it? i had no clue you had a degree in fiction writing (my own degree was in screenwriting). i love the flexibility afforded me by playing and coaching poker, but at the same time i couldn't do it forever.

[/ QUOTE ]

I love to write and read fiction. There are very few things that give me more pleasure in this world than reading a great book, and the feeling I get after someone says they enjoyed a short story I wrote is something that I know I could never find in poker, finance, or the law. The great thing about writing is that you can do it at any time. But the downside is that very few people are good enough/disciplined enough to be successful. I'd love to write for an HBO television show, but that's like saying I'd love to play point guard for the NY Knicks. It's a hell of a lot easier to be successful in law or finance or poker. I have no doubt I will continue to write in the future, but this past year I've written less in large part because of the time I spent playing poker.

Re: A dream that never began...
 

[ QUOTE ]
this past year I've written less in large part because of the time I spent playing poker.

[/ QUOTE ]

same here

i've realized that to actually be a writer, you have to just write every [censored] day, which for me has been extremely difficult with poker taking up so much of my time

Re: A dream that never began...
 

You seem to have put a lot of thought into your career and life choices. As far as the conflict between poker, writing, and the corporate lifestyle, it seems as though you have done a very good job at balancing the three as it is. You are opening doors for yourself to do whatever you want at a younger age rather than being forced along a single path in life like most people. Also, most people are lucky to be good at just one thing in their lives -- you seem to have three great talents. Don't feel bad about splitting time up among the three interests, especially if each makes you happy or advances your career/life.

Re: A dream that never began...
 

all impressive benchmarks, save your evaluation of DJ AM as a good hip-hop DJ.

As regards the thrust of your post, sounds like you're making a mature decision. You've tons of credentials to fall back on should anything go awry, and you can make time to write and play some poker should you be so inspired. Indeed, perhaps working in a stimulating environment will be a healthy trigger for the writing process. Good luck in all your endeavors.

Re: A dream that never began...
 

As someone who graduated Law school (but never intended to become a Lawyer), became a writer, then worked at a merchant banking firm, then became a poker player, and now writes again for a living while playing poker on the side, I can feel your...pain?

I never did take the Bar, and I sorta regret that sometimes. Till I talk to my friend who is making close to 7 figures as a Lawyer and who hates his life, tehn I don't really have any regrets.

Just do what makes you happy...success will come. Managing a Hedge fund isn't all that differnt from playing poker professionally...just a different type of gambling (and with OPM).

Re: A dream that never began...
 

errr...you're right, he's not the best hip-hop dj. But he's by far the best MASH-UP dj I've ever heard (dj berrie and dj chachi and dj sizzahhands are close) and he puts on a HELLUVA show. Good hip-hop dj's are very hard to come by, and when I was a kid Funk Flex's show in the tunnel was the stone nuts, but it's been a while since I've heard a good, strictly hip hop show.

Re: A dream that never began...
 

not sure how much you get into it, but Lord Finesse is having a birthday party upcoming, with music by Premier. Hard to beat that. Lot of live performances too.

Jazzy Jeff is still the nastiest guy out there; I don't think he's doing his regular spot at APT anymore, however. He does make it to Atlantic City with some frequency.

Flex has never been a turntable technician, though he's a self-promotion master.

Best set I've heard in a while came courtesy of Black Eclipse from the X-ecutioners; he was killing time before Rakim came on at a recent Lyricist Lounge, and the R was unsurprisingly a couple hours late.

Re: A dream that never began...
 

i don't know if this is relevant in any way but are you gaucho2121?

Re: A dream that never began...
 

yes, why? Also, I want to add that playing poker while splayed out on your couch, watching maui fever on mtv and making money with no boss and no deadlines is simply an unreal lifestyle.

Re: A dream that never began...
 

Dlpnyc21,

I thoroughly enjoyed reading your post. Your thought processes are those of a clearly introspective and analytical individual, and that will bid you well in life regardless of the ultimate decisions you make.

I can't say I can fully relate to the large lucrative benefits poker provides you as I am only a moderately winning mid stakes player. I play mainly for stress relief and what you referred to as "personal management"; poker has taught me to be in control of my emotions in extreme situations.

What I can relate to is the ultimate decision you made and the underlying concerns that go with them. I am in essence a West Coast mirror to you; I work at a hedge fund in San Diego, have been involved in startups in Silicon Valley, and am currently pondering my next career step. My choices are basically to move on to a bigger hedge fund, cop out on go to Business School, stay put and hope our asset base grows, or quit for a while, play poker and work on my friends startup.

What has guided my ultimate decisions thus far is the concept of scalability. My main problem with poker is that while it can be lucrative, dynamic, and highly challenging (aspects I seek in my career), it is in essence a game of limited scale. I will not argue that making a near-instant decision on a million dollar pot is "large scale" in many respects, but I do think other careers, such as large asset finance lead to decision points of a much higher magnitude, measured in monetary terms or otherwise. The same can be said of entrepeneurship.

Now it may not be neccesarily correct to make career decisions based on the size of its biggest game, so to speak, but I think my main goal while I am young is to test the limits of my talent; I sense you are of a similar mind. Having been successful at most levels in my life until this point, I simply want to put myself in a pond where I am the one whose in danger of being eaten. I feel it is in these situations where I am at my best, when my survival instinct kicks in and I feel truly alive. Yes, poker has been the fastest path to this situation. And while I have yet to reach the biggest of games, I do think that the time required to get there would and has been better spent fighting my way up in even fiercer environments.

Mike

Re: A dream that never began...
 

OP.. do what makes you the happiest.. life is wayy too short to do anything but the things that make you happy. I'm only 22, i have no clue what im doing with my life, but my life experiences thus far (a lot to do w/ poker) have taught me things that I might have never learned, or learned a lot slower.

Re: A dream that never began...
 

DLP, IMHO whether to give up the hedge fund job for entrepreneurship depends on what entrepreneurial opportunities you want to pursue. I didn't get a sense from your OP that you have a particular big idea that is keeping you awake at night and crying out for realization. I can understand that problem-solving and ownership are satisfying in themselves. But projecting myself into your situation, unless I really feel like I'm going to change people's lives with my work, I'd rather just make a lot of money at the hedge fund and set aside time for my writing where I might be able to make a difference to people on a deeper level. The good news is all of your options are pretty damn good ones. Except for BigLaw. That's right out.

BTW, I play like 1/5 the stakes you do, but I decided to spend less time on poker last year to concentrate on my music. I'm much happier for it.

Re: A dream that never began...
 

so your question is: should i choose good option A, awesome option B, or awesomest +6 option C? tough decision! hardknock (sp? i'm not hip and with it) life yo.

Re: A dream that never began...
 

wrong forum.

Re: A dream that never began...
 

[ QUOTE ]
DLP, IMHO whether to give up the hedge fund job for entrepreneurship depends on what entrepreneurial opportunities you want to pursue. I didn't get a sense from your OP that you have a particular big idea that is keeping you awake at night and crying out for realization. I can understand that problem-solving and ownership are satisfying in themselves. But projecting myself into your situation, unless I really feel like I'm going to change people's lives with my work, I'd rather just make a lot of money at the hedge fund and set aside time for my writing where I might be able to make a difference to people on a deeper level. The good news is all of your options are pretty damn good ones. Except for BigLaw. That's right out.

BTW, I play like 1/5 the stakes you do, but I decided to spend less time on poker last year to concentrate on my music. I'm much happier for it.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's actually not the case. I had a very specific idea for a business and was set to work with a person I like and respect a lot. I think the idea (which I won't discuss) has a tremendous amount of potential. I also think I would enjoy owning my own business for many reasons. Both my uncles and father ran their own businesses and did very well, comparatively.

Re: A dream that never began...
 

[ QUOTE ]
wrong forum.

[/ QUOTE ]

ya...this is like the 1000th post about poker and jobs and whatnot in HSNL. stop it already!

Re: A dream that never began...
 

hsnl is now a forum for grudge matches, careers, and no strategy. just accept it

Re: A dream that never began...
 

Dave,

work at the fund and play poker on the side. law sucks. you will learn a lot more and have a lot more fun (and make more money) in finance. being an entrepreneur is great, but you will always have the opportunity to do it, and it will be easier once you have the knowledge, experience, financial means, and connections you will develop at a great job like working at a hedge fund. and the hours will be long and hard i'm sure, but large law firm hours are just a complete grind.

if you want to talk more, feel free to PM/email/IM me. you can get my info from duck, whitelime, whomever. good luck.

- TWP

Re: A dream that never began...
 

Cliff notes for kids who can't read good?

Re: A dream that never began...
 

no matter what you decide to do, you'll end up being succesful. you're a genius! .... harvard... law school... potential jobs that I don't have a clue what they even mean.. lol. good luck.

Re: A dream that never began...
 

Dave,

Interesting post. I actually think this post is sort of appropriate for this forum because going pro is an idea most HSNLers play with at some point.

This comparison might be a little bit of a stretch, but playing poker is sort of like bartending. The money is great, the hours are relatively flexible (and just like a poker player, you probably stay up all night and sleep most of the day) and you meet some interesting people / cute chicks. It's easy to get trapped because it's an easy / comfortable lifestyle.

The question you have to ask yourself is, in 20 years, are you going to be satisfied having, to paraphrase something you said, sat on your couch playing poker all day long. My guess is no.

If you go the entrepreneurial route, my suggestion is to use poker to facilitate business success, e.g. cover your expenses until you become profitable.

Re: A dream that never began...
 

[ QUOTE ]
being an entrepreneur is great, but you will always have the opportunity to do it

[/ QUOTE ]
Depends on what kind of start-up he's thinking about.

Re: A dream that never began...
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
what about writing? do you plan to still put a lot of time into it? i had no clue you had a degree in fiction writing (my own degree was in screenwriting). i love the flexibility afforded me by playing and coaching poker, but at the same time i couldn't do it forever.

[/ QUOTE ]

I love to write and read fiction. There are very few things that give me more pleasure in this world than reading a great book, and the feeling I get after someone says they enjoyed a short story I wrote is something that I know I could never find in poker, finance, or the law. The great thing about writing is that you can do it at any time. But the downside is that very few people are good enough/disciplined enough to be successful. I'd love to write for an HBO television show, but that's like saying I'd love to play point guard for the NY Knicks. It's a hell of a lot easier to be successful in law or finance or poker. I have no doubt I will continue to write in the future, but this past year I've written less in large part because of the time I spent playing poker.

[/ QUOTE ]


I'd be very interested in reading some of your work.

Re: A dream that never began...
 

gaucho, everytime we talked, i had no idea you were this smart.

Re: A dream that never began...
 

[ QUOTE ]
gaucho, everytime we talked, i had no idea you were this smart.

[/ QUOTE ]

lol, ty for the compliment. I will say that my poker math skills are not as good as kerpowski's or some others, but I think I'm a pretty strong logical thinker and learn very quickly. I also probably have stronger observational and memory skills (comes from writing) than most and that has allowed me to be successful live player, as well.

Re: A dream that never began...
 

[ QUOTE ]
Dave,

work at the fund and play poker on the side. law sucks. you will learn a lot more and have a lot more fun (and make more money) in finance. being an entrepreneur is great, but you will always have the opportunity to do it, and it will be easier once you have the knowledge, experience, financial means, and connections you will develop at a great job like working at a hedge fund. and the hours will be long and hard i'm sure, but large law firm hours are just a complete grind.


[/ QUOTE ]

This is the correct answer IMO...I thought the choice was between law and poker (which is easy as hell), but if you've got a hedge fund gig thrown in and you're naturally talented at that kind of work, by all means take it. You can always quit 5 years from now as a millionaire balla.

Good luck.

Re: A dream that never began...
 

Do exactly what you're doing. It sounds like you're decisions are very sound.

Go for it!!!

GL

Re: A dream that never began...
 

This is pretty simple. Work at the fund, make a lot of money, try to remain frugal. Remember to quit and pursue your other goals.

Re: A dream that never began...
 

from poker you are going to know enough to ball all over the world

Re: A dream that never began...
 

If you turn down the opportunity to work at a hedge fund you're insane. DO NOT count on poker for future income. There's no reason you can't still fit in 10-20 hours of poker/week which should still grant you a fair bit of income.

Re: A dream that never began...
 

[ QUOTE ]

BTW, I play like 1/5 the stakes you do, but I decided to spend less time on poker last year to concentrate on my music. I'm much happier for it.

[/ QUOTE ]

* same. i've opted out of some potentially rewarding offers, and quit my job to focus on music. despite the fact that money is tight at the moment, i'm as happy as i've been simpily having the flexibility to do what i love. thats the only thing truly significant to me.

gl with your music burningyen, and with your decisions nyc. regardless of what you choose i really hope you find the time to write.

Re: A dream that never began...
 

I used to be a corporate attorney for a mid-sized firm, and now I am a partner in a hedge fund.

To me the decision is very, very easy. It's hedge fund in a landslide. If the opportunity is as good as you describe, in a few years you could make enough money to never have to worry about it again. Then you can write, play poker, do whatever.

If you find out you hate working at a hedge fund, you can always quit and go back to poker, writing, etc. But if you pass this up to play poker, you may not get an opportunity like that again.

P.S. being a corporate attorney at a firm sucks. I didn't realize how much I hated it until I left. It's a good learning experience for a while, but definitely not a career choice I would recommend to anyone.

Re: A dream that never began...
 

[ QUOTE ]
i've realized that to actually be a writer, you have to just write every [censored] day, which for me has been extremely difficult with poker taking up so much of my time

[/ QUOTE ]

for me, and many others I know in the arts, this is not really how the process works. you write because you need to write, or because you really love it, or both. at any rate it is certainly not something you have to make yourself do, and not something that a game like poker would take the place of. in other words, if poker were to go away tomorrow you would probably not fill that hole in your life with writing (maybe you would, but I wouldn't bet on it).

Re: A dream that never began...
 

Jay is writing for commercial purposes (I believe) and I dont find it hard to believe that the process there is different from, say, writing a novel or poetry. Just my two cents.

Re: A dream that never began...
 

[ QUOTE ]
Jay is writing for commercial purposes (I believe) and I dont find it hard to believe that the process there is different from, say, writing a novel or poetry. Just my two cents.

[/ QUOTE ]

Very, very different process. You really aren't allowed the luxury of writer's block, your deadlines are much more rigid, and you usually have very explicit parameters when writing for commercial (i.e. marketing/advertising) purposes.

For me, commercial writing pays the bills (though can be fun at times), Long form writing is for myself (usually), and my poker writing is for the birds.

Re: A dream that never began...
 

Some artists like Woody Allen, Sting and Stevie Wonder supposedly write on a set daily schedule, no matter if they're feeling it or not. I think there's a lot to be said for this approach, especially if you have a tendency to get too precious and self-critical with your writing. But whatever works.