benchmark dishes
 

the numerous food threads here and some inane continuous improvement meetings at work got me to thinking about my restaurant habits. for certain cuisines, i have benchmark dishes that i order the first time i go to a restaurant.

as an example, for japanese, i'll order chicken katsu (chicken cutlets breaded with panko and fried) or tonkatsu (pork cutlets with the same treatment). if that's satisfactory and i return a second time, i'll go for the tempura. if that's good, i'll go with teriyaki beef the third time.

my reasoning is that katsu is fairly simple for a decent cook to make, so, if they screw that up (breading too thick, breading falling off, meat over cooked, breading soggy, etc) there's no point ordering anything else on their menu.

the second visit determines the real skill of the cook once the pretenders are weeded out. good tempura is light and not greasy. the shrimp or veggies are cooked perfectly (overcooking is a major flaw in many tempuras) and the batter has a nice golden color. Once past the second step, the restaurant's golden in my book and i'll probably return regardless of the result of the third test.

that one is mainly for informational purposes only and to fix a ranking in my mind. i'm not a huge fan of any teriyaki that i don't make myself, but i'll eat it to test it out. to me, good teriyaki sauce is light but not runny and not too sweet with a nice but not overpowering vinegar kick. also, if they use pineapple in it, they fail.

obviously, if you go to a new restaurant in a group, it's fairly simple to do these tests all at once, but the first two are pretty much dealbreakers for me anyway.

what are good benchmark dishes for other cuisines?

Re: benchmark dishes
 

It seems like a fairly simple idea at first, but I like the levels of thought you've put into it, which brings me to the question: what are good benchmark dishes for an Italian restaurant?

I feel like the "classic" Italian dishes, spaghetti marinara and bolognese, don't qualify because I'll usually have those at home and not a restaurant (in contrast to say, pad thai for a Thai restaurant).
I nominate chicken parmigiana and lasagna. I feel that each of these dishes tests the ability of the Italian restaurant to combine cheese, sauce, and either pasta or breaded chicken, and I'm definitely motivated to reach for the parmesan as a first instinct at an Italian restaurant just because it strikes me as a complete meal. I would definitely like to hear what others' first choices are at Italian restaurants.

As a bonus: my first choice for lowbrow American/pub food is a patty melt. Discuss.

Re: benchmark dishes
 

Italian: I'm thinking gnocchi.

Re: benchmark dishes
 

[ QUOTE ]
As a bonus: my first choice for lowbrow American/pub food is a patty melt. Discuss.

[/ QUOTE ] chicken friend steak w/ eggs.

Re: benchmark dishes
 

Hashbrowns are the ultimate test of diner breakfasts.

Re: benchmark dishes
 

Zen

Chicken Parm is an excellent indicator of an Italian restaurant because if it is made well, it's amazing, and if it is sub-par, well it's still ok. Lasagna might be too high a bar to start with. I've had some really bad lasagna in my lifetime.

Ed,

Gnocchi is my favourite Italian dish, but it is too easy to mess up to keep in line with the OP's intentions.

Re: benchmark dishes
 

M,

Very nice thread idea.

Thai restaurants I want to try yellow chicken curry, pad thai, and either fresh or fried spring rolls the first trip. If that all works, I want to try a spicy chicken curry, coconut chicken soup, and some meat like garlic pork. If that all works out, I'm gonna mix it up w/ some duck curry and maybe something random like a seafood dish on my calibration trip.

Sushi I'm trying maguro, sake, shiro maguro, and hamachi nigiri. Spider roll and some sort of spicy tuna roll and a basic fish roll like a rainbow roll. Next trip I'm gonna try some different nigiri and some more involved rolls.

Re: benchmark dishes
 

The true test of an Italian restaurant is the risotto. I love it when I order the risotto and the waiter says, 'I'm sorry, that will take 30 minutes.'

Don't be sorry. That's what I was looking for. Now I can settle back and relax, knowing that my risotto is being prepared from scratch. Cooked to order. If your risotto comes out quicker than that, then they're cutting corners. And not just on the risotto.

Re: benchmark dishes
 

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Ed,

Gnocchi is my favourite Italian dish, but it is too easy to mess up to keep in line with the OP's intentions.

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I think that's the point, no? If they get that right they're golden? Am I misunderstanding the OP?

And I agree with you, gnocchi is the best. Unfortunately I didn't discover it until I moved from Boston (and subsequently, the delicious north end). Sodini's in North Beach, SF has really awesome gnocchi if you get the chance.

As for what I order first when trying an Italian place, it's usually eggplant parmigiana.

Re: benchmark dishes
 

Kind of a simple one that my grandma taught me. Whenever she went to a new restaraunt (american), she ordered a burger. If they messed that up then they weren't worth going back to. And I agree with her.

Re: benchmark dishes
 

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Ed,

Gnocchi is my favourite Italian dish, but it is too easy to mess up to keep in line with the OP's intentions.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think that's the point, no? If they get that right they're golden? Am I misunderstanding the OP?

And I agree with you, gnocchi is the best. Unfortunately I didn't discover it until I moved from Boston (and subsequently, the delicious north end). Sodini's in North Beach, SF has really awesome gnocchi if you get the chance.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think the OP wants dishes that are hard to mess up, and if those are good, then he would try the restaurant again, but I could be wrong.

And, for the record, my mom makes the best gnocchi.

Re: benchmark dishes
 

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And, for the record, my mom makes the best gnocchi.

[/ QUOTE ]

Unless you are my uncle you are wrong, sir.

In defense of my gnocchi choice, it is [censored] up a lot, but someone that knows what they are doing won't ever get it wrong. Its not a complicated procedure.

Re: benchmark dishes
 

[ QUOTE ]
The true test of an Italian restaurant is the risotto. I love it when I order the risotto and the waiter says, 'I'm sorry, that will take 30 minutes.'

Don't be sorry. That's what I was looking for. Now I can settle back and relax, knowing that my risotto is being prepared from scratch. Cooked to order. If your risotto comes out quicker than that, then they're cutting corners. And not just on the risotto.

[/ QUOTE ]
I agree with this 100%. I rarely go out to Italian these days - in large part because there's a serious lack of selection for non-horrible Italian restaurants in Seattle - but when I do go to a new one I almost always order risotto for this very reason.

Re: benchmark dishes
 

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Thai restaurants I want to try yellow chicken curry, pad thai, and either fresh or fried spring rolls the first trip.

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I think pad thai is a poor noodle choice for this purpose. I think Pad Kee Mao would be a much better indicator of how good a Thai restaurant is at noodle dishes. If you can't do super spicy dishes, I'd say Pad See Ew. For a curry I'd go with Panang on my first trip, kind of for the same reasons, but also because I think Panang curry is heaven on earth.

Re: benchmark dishes
 

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I agree with this 100%. I rarely go out to Italian these days - in large part because there's a serious lack of selection for non-horrible Italian restaurants in Seattle - but when I do go to a new one I almost always order risotto for this very reason.

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have you been to Pasta Freska on Westlake? Went there one time with a friend of the chef, and it is right up there with any Italian that I've had anywhere, including Italy. The chef picks the food and wine for you. Prices more than reasonable. Give it a try if you haven't.

Oh, and the chef is supposed to be a monster at backgammon, if that matters.

Pasta Freska

Re: benchmark dishes
 

I do the exact same thing with sushi el d. Like, to the letter.

For chinese restaurants that are like, 'fast foody' I would normally get a combination chicken chow mein. It's usually pretty reasonable and can also be very good.

Re: benchmark dishes
 

Kid,

Yes, you missed the starting point (but not the endgame). We start with a simple dish that the chef should not screw-up. Then as we make return visits to the restaurant we challenge him a bit. In this case gnocchi would be towards the top of the ladder of difficulty. So it would not be ordered on the first visit.

I agree that gnocchi is a true test of a good Italian restaurant. Once one has had great gnocchi, one can never eat bad gnocchi again. Gnocchi should be light as a feather.

M2d: Great idea, btw. I am definitely going to start using it.

RJT

Re: benchmark dishes
 

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Thai restaurants I want to try yellow chicken curry, pad thai, and either fresh or fried spring rolls the first trip.

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I think pad thai is a poor noodle choice for this purpose. I think Pad Kee Mao would be a much better indicator of how good a Thai restaurant is at noodle dishes. If you can't do super spicy dishes, I'd say Pad See Ew. For a curry I'd go with Panang on my first trip, kind of for the same reasons, but also because I think Panang curry is heaven on earth.

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panang, garlic pork, whatever spicy basil chicken/beef (pad gra pow in thai?) looks best and rounds out the order.

Re: benchmark dishes
 

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And, for the record, my mom makes the best gnocchi.

[/ QUOTE ]

Unless you are my uncle you are wrong, sir.

In defense of my gnocchi choice, it is [censored] up a lot, but someone that knows what they are doing won't ever get it wrong. Its not a complicated procedure.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ed,

OK, I am not so far from PSU (assuming that is Penn State) 3 hours maybe. What State are you in Golden Rhino?

This Sunday? I’ll bring the wine.

RJT

Re: benchmark dishes
 

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And, for the record, my mom makes the best gnocchi.

[/ QUOTE ]

Unless you are my uncle you are wrong, sir.

In defense of my gnocchi choice, it is [censored] up a lot, but someone that knows what they are doing won't ever get it wrong. Its not a complicated procedure.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ed,

OK, I am not so far from PSU (assuming that is Penn State) 3 hours maybe. What State are you in Golden Rhino?

This Sunday? I’ll bring the wine.

RJT

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Unfortunately I am not in a State, I live in Canada. How bout if I ever cross the border I bring a big ass tupperware full of gnocchi for you?

Re: benchmark dishes
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
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And, for the record, my mom makes the best gnocchi.

[/ QUOTE ]

Unless you are my uncle you are wrong, sir.

In defense of my gnocchi choice, it is [censored] up a lot, but someone that knows what they are doing won't ever get it wrong. Its not a complicated procedure.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ed,

OK, I am not so far from PSU (assuming that is Penn State) 3 hours maybe. What State are you in Golden Rhino?

This Sunday? I’ll bring the wine.

RJT

[/ QUOTE ]

Unfortunately I am not in a State, I live in Canada. How bout if I ever cross the border I bring a big ass tupperware full of gnocchi for you?

[/ QUOTE ]

Ontario? Ohio here. Not to hijack the thread (but am going to for a second). Do you know (rhetorical) that Toronto is second only to Rome in poulation of Italians? (This used to be true anyway – not positive it still stands.)

Re: benchmark dishes
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
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And, for the record, my mom makes the best gnocchi.

[/ QUOTE ]

Unless you are my uncle you are wrong, sir.

In defense of my gnocchi choice, it is [censored] up a lot, but someone that knows what they are doing won't ever get it wrong. Its not a complicated procedure.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ed,

OK, I am not so far from PSU (assuming that is Penn State) 3 hours maybe. What State are you in Golden Rhino?

This Sunday? I’ll bring the wine.

RJT

[/ QUOTE ]

Unfortunately I am not in a State, I live in Canada. How bout if I ever cross the border I bring a big ass tupperware full of gnocchi for you?

[/ QUOTE ]

Ontario? Ohio here. Not to hijack the thread (but am going to for a second). Do you know (rhetorical) that Toronto is second only to Rome in poulation of Italians? (This used to be true anyway – not positive it still stands.)

[/ QUOTE ]

I am taking a class on Italians in North America, and my prof stated that as a fact.

Re: benchmark dishes
 

Diners: Start with french fries, then move to cheeseburgers

Re: benchmark dishes
 

GoT,

I stand by my Thai picks. Other picks might showcase a restaurant's talents better or be tastier dishes overall, but I think the quality of those dishes is a better reflection of how everything else is likely to come out of the kitchen than just about anything else.

Re: benchmark dishes
 

I think, for diners, you can get some clues before you even step foot in the joint. when I was in oregon we used to hit up two particular places near campus for breakfasts when the dorm food wasn't cutting it. One was a down home place that we went to when it was just guys and the other a nicer place when girls wanted to come along too. the guys only place opened at oh-dark-thirty and (especially in the fall), its parking lot was usually filled before dawn with pickup trucks sporting gun racks. if you came in a bit later, the same trucks were there, but some of them had antlers and deer legs sticking up out of the truck bed.

the other place was where the sorority chicks would go. it was more towards the downtown area and had little shops next door.

guess which one had better hashbrowns.

Re: benchmark dishes
 

Meatloaf.

Re: benchmark dishes
 

[ QUOTE ]
Italian: I'm thinking gnocchi.

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ed - I'm not sure if this is an ironclad choice. I frequent one Italian place that makes great everything else, but their gnocchi was really dense and altogether unpleasant.

Re: benchmark dishes
 

For mexican restaurants: steak fajitas.

Also the salsa that you get at the beginning of the meal. If it tastes extra good you're in pretty good shape. It shows the restaurant has good attention to detail.

Re: benchmark dishes
 

never even heard of gnocchi before this thread.

Re: benchmark dishes
 

[ QUOTE ]
GoT,

I stand by my Thai picks. Other picks might showcase a restaurant's talents better or be tastier dishes overall, but I think the quality of those dishes is a better reflection of how everything else is likely to come out of the kitchen than just about anything else.

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I tend to agree with this for Thai as general rule of thumb. Pad Thai is a classic (more so than Pad Kee Mow, which I actually like way more) - so if they screw that up it's a much better indicator of overall quality I'd say, as it's the food that's most frequently coming out of the kitchen.

That being said, I've had amazing Pad Thai at places that have so-so everything else. This is one reason I tend not to utilize this "benchmarking" tactic at restaurants for my first visit, as it's very possible that the benchmark dish just happens to be one of the restaurants strong suits.

Absent recs from a friend or reading a review, I just go with what I like on the menu and hope it works out. If this happens to be a benchmark dish that's even better.

For mid-tier to finer dining, I usually go in to the meal with some knowledge of the restaurants strengths and best dishes, so again, no first-time visit benchmarking necessary.

-Al

Re: benchmark dishes
 

For Thai I recommend Tom Yum soup. You can tell quite a bit just by what mushrooms they put it. Crappy canned button mushrooms: boo hoo. It is a simple dish that any Thai chef should have mastered. If it sucks, most everything probably will.

Second: Phad Krapao, which is the fried meat with basil dish. This is the signature wok dish for Thai cooking. It is also very simple and should be made with a minimum of ingredients besides the meat and basil (in Thailand, it is just that plus peppers). If it is good, most things will be, IMO.

I always order these to test the goodness of a Thai place. I also check what veggies they use in general. Places that use a lot of bell peppers and green beans don't do much for me. These ingredients are not used in Thailand and their flavors are not a good match, IMO. Of course, everyone changes their cuisine for the American ingredients and palate but I feel like Thai cooking is so simple and delicious as is that I am very judgmental when a Thai cook chooses to make substitutions or additions of veggies that don't match the sauces they use.

KJS

Re: benchmark dishes
 

[ QUOTE ]

have you been to Pasta Freska on Westlake? Went there one time with a friend of the chef, and it is right up there with any Italian that I've had anywhere, including Italy. The chef picks the food and wine for you. Prices more than reasonable. Give it a try if you haven't.
Pasta Freska

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This is about 3/4 mile from me. I really got to go there; heard only great things.

KJS

Re: benchmark dishes
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

have you been to Pasta Freska on Westlake? Went there one time with a friend of the chef, and it is right up there with any Italian that I've had anywhere, including Italy. The chef picks the food and wine for you. Prices more than reasonable. Give it a try if you haven't.
Pasta Freska

[/ QUOTE ]

This is about 3/4 mile from me. I really got to go there; heard only great things.

KJS

[/ QUOTE ]I have driven by this place dozens of times and never thought anything of it. Interesting....

Re: benchmark dishes
 

[ QUOTE ]
For mexican restaurants: steak fajitas.

Also the salsa that you get at the beginning of the meal. If it tastes extra good you're in pretty good shape. It shows the restaurant has good attention to detail.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ouch, I realize Fajitas are fairly common these days, but I don't believe this is a 'Mexican Dish'.

I think Chile Verde would be a better choice.

I've had the Chile Verde from just about every mexican place in the south bay and I think the little hole-in-the-wall at MoonLight Shopping center, right in the corner next to Radio-Shack, is the best I have had.

The name I think is Acapulcos (not the chain).

Re: benchmark dishes
 

Pad Thai works because their choice of sauce says a lot about the place.

Some places you're basically getting ketchup or BBQ sauce, and some places an actual tamarind has been near the sauce.

I also use Swimming Rama as a benchline, because I'm a gringo and order that a lot.

Bright,

Tulio's used to be a good Italian, place, or it was years ago when my grandparents took me there.

Re: benchmark dishes
 

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For mexican restaurants: chicken mole/mole poblano

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Order with corn tortillas, not flour. Flavor should be slightly spicy (not too hot) with a touch of sweet (due to the chocolate). I've only seen this at sit-down Mexican restaurants, and not all of them serve it.

Re: benchmark dishes
 

Agree that mole done well is wonderful stuff, but i think it's so intricate that a decent restaurant that i'd return to could concievably make poor mole. otoh, a place that serves good mole is a keeper.

generally (and i'm nowhere near an expert as far as mexican food), i judge by the freshness of the salsa (my rationale is that if the salsa is fresh that means they have to keep on making it to keep up with demand which means that they are pretty busy, and, since i'm no expert here, i can usually defer to others' judgement). my other test is odd because i don't even like/eat this dish. my wife loves al pastor burritos and if we find a place that serves passable al pastor, i usually find that the foods i order (carnitas, chile rellenos, etc) are pretty good as well.

Re: benchmark dishes
 

El D,

Fair enough. I have a hard time agreeing with you, but it's probably because, despite my undying love of Thai food, I find Pad Thai to be one of my least favourite things on the menu [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

Re: benchmark dishes
 

For french, initial dish is French Onion Soup.
It covers 3 basics of french cooking: stock, bread, cheese. It's not hard to do correctly, with correct ingredients.

Re: benchmark dishes
 

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Italian: I'm thinking gnocchi.

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This is a good benchmark that sadly very few resataurants will pass.