Why Raise with Suited Connectors? (NLHE)
 

I was just wondering why some people, regardless of position, will raise with suited connectors in No Limit Hold 'Em? In terms of what it does when different types of players are present at the table and how it can be used to your advantage? My friend has also been wanting to know this.

I'll further preface this question with:

The idea of raising preflop with PPs and Premium hands is to induce a 3way pot or a heads up so you improve your hand's probability of winning. But with Suited Connectors, they're usually better when there are more than 3 people in a pot because your EV on it skyrockets. So why do some players like to raise like they have PP, regardless of position, with Suited Connectors?

Re: Why Raise with Suited Connectors? (NLHE)
 

I do it but not every time. I do it to vary play. If I only raise w/ premium hands, my opponents will figure that out.

Re: Why Raise with Suited Connectors?
 

Generally speaking, it's a bad idea, whether it's NL or L you're talking about.

Suited connectors work on a principle called implied odds. What that means is that at the start of the hand, they aren't strong enough to "own" their fair share of equity in the pot. However, if they make their 8 or 9 card nut (or near nut) draw on the flop, they now own roughly 1/3 of the equity in the pot, and if they hit that draw they own basically 100% of the equity (ignoring the issue of drawing to non-nut hands for now).

So what you want to do with suited connectors is put in as little money while you're a dog before the flop, and plenty of money on the flop when you get your draw (assuming it's at least 3-way action), none on the turn if you don't hit (since your equity drops to more like 1/6th at that point if you miss the turn) and as much money anytime the draw hits as possible (regardless of how many people are still in the pot).

The only reason to raise low to mid suited connectors preflop is as a semi-bluff. If you think there's a reasonable chance everyone will fold before the flop, then they're a perfectly good hand to raise. This usually only works in NL holdem, but in tight L games it might work too.

High suited connectors, like KQs, can sometimes be raised for value as well as for bluff. Especially in limit.

Re: Why Raise with Suited Connectors? (NLHE)
 

To build a bigger pot so you can bet more when you make your hand and still get called.

Re: Why Raise with Suited Connectors? (NLHE)
 

I agree with the other posts- its done for many reasons-
It can also be done to set up bluffs- your going to bet no matter what hits the flop because you know everyone else is going to miss the flop roughly 70% of the time this is really true if you raise and cut the field down- if you hit nobody is going to know- if you don't hit, take a stab. if they fold you won- if they raise you fold< and show your hand and say "i was just kidding" they will think your a maniac and call you when you have a big hand.....

For the bluff to work make sure you know who you bluff and that you have a good image- don't bluff the calling station that NEVER folds-

Re: Why Raise with Suited Connectors? (NLHE)
 

[ QUOTE ]
I was just wondering why some people, regardless of position, will raise with suited connectors in No Limit Hold 'Em? In terms of what it does when different types of players are present at the table and how it can be used to your advantage? My friend has also been wanting to know this.

I'll further preface this question with:

The idea of raising preflop with PPs and Premium hands is to induce a 3way pot or a heads up so you improve your hand's probability of winning. But with Suited Connectors, they're usually better when there are more than 3 people in a pot because your EV on it skyrockets. So why do some players like to raise like they have PP, regardless of position, with Suited Connectors?

[/ QUOTE ]

First, to get good answers (not saying any of the above are not) go to one of the potlimit/nolimit forums and post this question. Poker theory is where everyone starts, because its first, AND its "poker theory". Once they start posting more, they find their true homes in other sections (for the most part).

In limit, its usually not a good idea to raise up your suited connectors since you want a multiway pot. Although its not awful to occasionally cap a multiway pot with them. In no-limit, a lot of the game is disguising your hand. As another poster said, if you only raise premium hands, players will start to notice. Many of the good players will even 3-bet with some of their suited connectors, and lower pairs (22-66). People are much more willing to go broke in a 3-bet pot, partly due to the inflated size. There are a lot of players at the tables that only 3-bet KK, AA, and AK. That makes life pretty easy when the situation arises. But really, go read some of the pl/nl forums.

Re: Why Raise with Suited Connectors? (NLHE)
 

[ QUOTE ]
To build a bigger pot so you can bet more when you make your hand and still get called.

[/ QUOTE ]

Isn't this precisely CONTRARY to the concept of implied odds, though?

Re: Why Raise with Suited Connectors? (NLHE)
 

actually not. There's 2 points to make here

1) It's ok to sweeten the pot PF with drawing hands as long as the stacks are deep enough to give you the implied odds. Implied odds are less a function of pot size and more a function of the size of the stacks behind.

2) Raising with SCs is different from open raising with SCs. If you open raise you'll scare off action which isn't what you want. But if you raise with them then one of 2 things will happen. Either every one will come along for the ride in which case you've simply raised the stakes that your SCs are playing for while not affecting your potential return (as long as the stacks are big enough to pay off the right price if you hit your draw). Or people will drop off, leaving their dead money in the pot and increasing your winning chances that way. Also note that you've done a good job of disguising your hand in this scenario also because most people don't play SCs that way (for the reasons you've raised).

Of course, this is a reason to justify raising sometimes with SCs, not raising all the time with them. They make great limping hands also.

Re: Why Raise with Suited Connectors? (NLHE)
 

The real reason is simply to steal the blinds. With pretty much every hand in holdem except QQ-AA you should be happy to raise and just take down the blinds. The value from the sum of the times you are just stealing the blinds or taking the pot down on the flop with a continuation bet if u just get one or two callers is better than the value from that rare occasion you make a big hand in a multiway pot and get it paid off. You should very rarely be raising suited connectors for value. The only time I can think of doing this is when there are six or more players in a pot and you are almost certain you won't be reraised.

That said, I think playing suited connectors in general is a bit overrated. A lot of players automatically raise with them from middle position and automatically continuation bet if they get a caller. Against an aggressive table this is a mistake. Raising with them might still be better than limping, but the best play is to just fold.

The one situation where I think limping might be better than raising is in tournaments where the players are so loose and bad that stealing the blinds is hopeless, and whenever you make a big hand you WILL get paid off since they have no chance of getting away from top pair.

Re: Why Raise with Suited Connectors? (NLHE)
 

[ QUOTE ]
actually not. There's 2 points to make here

1) It's ok to sweeten the pot PF with drawing hands as long as the stacks are deep enough to give you the implied odds. Implied odds are less a function of pot size and more a function of the size of the stacks behind.



[/ QUOTE ]

I'll agree your point 2) follows if 1) is true, but I'm not sure 1) is true. Usually when people talk implied odds, they're measured in terms of the ratio between what you have to put in the pot now vs. what you stand to win later. So in NL, it's usually initially talked about as the ratio between the BB and the stack sizes. However, if you raise, it would seem like the implied odds would now be the ratio of the total money you put in to stack size, which would be on the order of 1/4th of the previous ratio. I have a hard time seeing how your implied odds didn't just get FAR worse.

Re: Why Raise with Suited Connectors? (NLHE)
 

because betting on the later streets is a function of the pot size. You make the pot twice as big and the flop/turn/river betting all double also. Therefore your implied odds (which are the relationship between the amount you have to bet and the amount you expect to win if you hit) will stay the same.

Re: Why Raise with Suited Connectors? (NLHE)
 

[ QUOTE ]
because betting on the later streets is a function of the pot size. You make the pot twice as big and the flop/turn/river betting all double also. Therefore your implied odds (which are the relationship between the amount you have to bet and the amount you expect to win if you hit) will stay the same.

[/ QUOTE ]

Fair enough, if the stacks were infinitely deep. However, in most structures it only take a few called pot-sized bets to get to the point where someone thinks about pushing. And obviously if someone pushes your implied odds are definitely worse if you raised preflop with a drawing hand.

Re: Why Raise with Suited Connectors? (NLHE)
 

True enough. The stacks have to be something like 50BB+ for you to be able to raise 3xBB before the flop and still be sure to have enough behind if you hit your draw.

Re: Why Raise with Suited Connectors? (NLHE)
 

[ QUOTE ]
True enough. The stacks have to be something like 50BB+ for you to be able to raise 3xBB before the flop and still be sure to have enough behind if you hit your draw.

[/ QUOTE ]

I got numbers FAR higher than that for many common scenarios. For example:

2 limp, standard PF raise to 6BB (4 + 1/limp) limpers call. Now you've got a 19.5 BB pot.
You get your draw, and one of them bets pot into you. Other limper folds, you call. Pot is now 58.5 BB. With 50BB, we're out of money on the turn no matter what, so in fact we shouldn't have called the flop, and therefore should not have played at all.

To be able to call a full pot turn bet, and min-raise a half-pot river bet (thereby really getting our implied odds licks in if we hit), we're going to need stacks over 200BB, which is bigger than max-buy is most places.

However, had we NOT raised, we could get our licks in with less than 100BB, which coincidentally IS often max-buy.

That's all I'm getting at. If stacks are infinitely deep, sure, raise it on up.

Re: Why Raise with Suited Connectors? (NLHE)
 

I think your implied odds in terms of the ratio do actually decrease when you raise, but your +EV may increase.

For example if ur in a 5/10 game in a multiway pot against horrible players and u raise to $40 your EV equation might be something like .10(600) - .9(40) = $24, with $600 being on average what you make when you hit your hand about 10% of time (this is a crude example). Then if you limp, your implied odds are better so you make on average 20x what you initially put in when you hit as opposed to 15x: So ur EV equation is: .10(200) - .9(10) = $11. So even though ur ratio is better by limping your EV is lower. Of course you're right, you will hit a point where stack sizes come into effect. If your opponent only has $1000 and you raise to $100, you aren't getting very good odds .10($1000) - .9(100) = $10, and thats only if an opponent stacks off every single time u make ur hand which of course is unrealistic.

I guess just the point is considering u probably didn't read all that math is that your implied odds ratio is just a tool you use to help maximize your EV, its not something that dictates your decisions alone.

Re: Why Raise with Suited Connectors? (NLHE)
 

[ QUOTE ]
I think your implied odds in terms of the ratio do actually decrease when you raise, but your +EV may increase.

For example if ur in a 5/10 game in a multiway pot against horrible players and u raise to $40 your EV equation might be something like .10(600) - .9(40) = $24, with $600 being on average what you make when you hit your hand about 10% of time (this is a crude example). Then if you limp, your implied odds are better so you make on average 20x what you initially put in when you hit as opposed to 15x: So ur EV equation is: .10(200) - .9(10) = $11. So even though ur ratio is better by limping your EV is lower. Of course you're right, you will hit a point where stack sizes come into effect. If your opponent only has $1000 and you raise to $100, you aren't getting very good odds .10($1000) - .9(100) = $10, and thats only if an opponent stacks off every single time u make ur hand which of course is unrealistic.

I guess just the point is considering u probably didn't read all that math is that your implied odds ratio is just a tool you use to help maximize your EV, its not something that dictates your decisions alone.

[/ QUOTE ]

This makes a certain amount of sense with one stipulation - you're against very bad opponents. You may have the choice of playing a worse scenario for higher stakes, or a better scenario for lower stakes, but they're both still very good because your opponents are very bad, so you'd take the higher stakes.

My advice was in the context of much better play.

Re: Why Raise with Suited Connectors? (NLHE)
 

I agree in general, see my response to the original poster. In fact I sort of contradicted myself with my response to you, I wasn't really trying to show that raising is in fact better, I was just trying to give an example of where theoretically your implied odds ratio is worse but your overall +EV is better.

Re: Why Raise with Suited Connectors? (NLHE)
 

[ QUOTE ]
I agree in general, see my response to the original poster. In fact I sort of contradicted myself with my response to you, I wasn't really trying to show that raising is in fact better, I was just trying to give an example of where theoretically your implied odds ratio is worse but your overall +EV is better.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sure - that's a good point. With sufficiently bad opponents I absolutely believe that can happen. Especially if they underbet made hands and then the rest of them gang-call with air after the flop.

It's just that it's very hard already to draw profitably in NL against a tough lineup. Hell, you could go your whole life and never try to do it except on a semi-bluff and be a winner. But anyways, it's so hard that I think you need every edge you can get including maximal implied odds.

Re: Why Raise with Suited Connectors? (NLHE)
 

You laid out a worst case scenario. I don't think we should be calling pot sized bets with an OESD or flush draw on the flop. And bare in mind I'm proposing sweetening the pot here, not trying to drive people out (though I don't mind if they fold).

So...

2 limpers. I raise to 4BB and they both call (let's say the blinds both fold). Pot == 15BB.

case 1) First limper makes a pot sized bet, second limper folds. I fold 'cos I don't have the right odds

case 2) First Limper makes a c-bet (8xBB). 2nd limper folds. I get 3:1 on my draw with good implied odds behind if I hit it. I call. Pot is now 31xBB and I have 38 behind. If I hit the turn (1 in 5) then I need to get all his money to make it worth my while.

case 3) First limper makes a c-bet and the second limper calls. I call too. Pot is now 39 and I have 38 behind. I only need to get 1 caller if I hit in order to be paid off (just)

case 4) Both limpers check to the raiser. I then get to choose whether I want to milk my FE or take a free card. Ideal.

Seems to me that Case 4 is the most common case and case 1 is the least common. Case 1 is also the least attractive outcome for us of course.

Other benefits are that we get to stop people limping so we can put villains on hands better and therefore play into them with a wider variety of flops. That is to say there's more opportunities for stealing if we take the lead in the betting.

Another key point here is that SCs are a great disguised hand after a PF raise. They're a drawing hand that looks like a made hand. And there's a lot of value in that.

Raising with SCs isn't my main line, and I think that with <50BB it's value must be sought in reasons other than implied odds but I still believe that with a (minimum) stack of 50BBs it can pay off if played correctly.

Re: Why Raise with Suited Connectors? (NLHE)
 

[ QUOTE ]
First, to get good answers (not saying any of the above are not) go to one of the potlimit/nolimit forums and post this question. Poker theory is where everyone starts, because its first, AND its "poker theory". Once they start posting more, they find their true homes in other sections (for the most part).

[/ QUOTE ]

I think you're probably right about the tendencies, but to my understanding it's ass-backwards. The NL forums should be about play at specific stakes, and generally end up being mostly about specific hand histories. I think Poker Theory is a great place to ask a question like this, and perhaps expect answers that contrast the way you play at different stakes.

But in practice, PT ends up being "Beginners" for people who can't find the real Beginners. In this case, I think the OP is very appropriate for PT, or for general Hold 'em.

To the OP, some reasons for raising SCs are:



<ul type="square">[*]As a semibluff to attempt to take down the blinds[*]To set up additional semibluffs when no one hits the flop.[*]To provide cover so that opponents can't assume you only raise with hands with good showdown value.[*]Possibly to build up a pot for when you hit. Note, however, that SCs play much differently than pocket pairs because you rarely flop a made monster, so it might be you instead of your opponents who gets roped in by the pot size![/list]
Now against that, you have the decreased expressed and implied odds -- expressed because you've limited the field and are getting fewer calls, implied because more is going in relative to future expectations of called bets (whether limit or big-bet, for different reasons).

So it's not a clear play. It's a better play when you're either winning a lot of pots through your flop continuation bets or at a table so tight that you routinely get no action on your premium hands. (That's not a very good table to be at, but you may as well steal with a hand that could flop big if you get called; you're not hoping to be called, however.)

Against players who get stubborn and defend against a CB with something like 44, you should raise with SCs less. In limit you should certainly bet your draws for value, because you expect to get called several ways. In NL you should just hope to get some free cards and make a big hand.

Re: Why Raise with Suited Connectors? (NLHE)
 

DECEPTION.

Re: Why Raise with Suited Connectors? (NLHE)
 

[ QUOTE ]

<ul type="square">[*]As a semibluff to attempt to take down the blinds[*]To set up additional semibluffs when no one hits the flop.[*]To provide cover so that opponents can't assume you only raise with hands with good showdown value.[*]Possibly to build up a pot for when you hit. Note, however, that SCs play much differently than pocket pairs because you rarely flop a made monster, so it might be you instead of your opponents who gets roped in by the pot size![/list]
Now against that, you have the decreased expressed and implied odds -- expressed because you've limited the field and are getting fewer calls, implied because more is going in relative to future expectations of called bets (whether limit or big-bet, for different reasons).

So it's not a clear play. It's a better play when you're either winning a lot of pots through your flop continuation bets or at a table so tight that you routinely get no action on your premium hands. (That's not a very good table to be at, but you may as well steal with a hand that could flop big if you get called; you're not hoping to be called, however.)

Against players who get stubborn and defend against a CB with something like 44, you should raise with SCs less. In limit you should certainly bet your draws for value, because you expect to get called several ways. In NL you should just hope to get some free cards and make a big hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

The above. I'd like to add that you need to win around 14 times the bet preflop if you only win by making your straight/flush. So you really need to have value from the semi bluffs to make it more profitable than limping.

Re: Why Raise with Suited Connectors? (NLHE)
 

[ QUOTE ]
The idea of raising preflop with PPs and Premium hands is to induce a 3way pot or a heads up so you improve your hand's probability of winning. But with Suited Connectors, they're usually better when there are more than 3 people in a pot because your EV on it skyrockets. So why do some players like to raise like they have PP, regardless of position, with Suited Connectors?

[/ QUOTE ]

Not to be a nit, but remember that the EV of any hand increases when there are more people in the pot, simply because there is more money in the pot (obviously assuming hero voluntarily puts in the same amount).

You're not raising premium hands to increase the probability of winning; you're raising to increase EV.

The rate at which the EV increases for SC's is not better than the rate for other categores of hands. Consider some examples:

Example 1: AA

Hand 0: 14.796% 14.52% 00.27% { random }
Hand 1: 85.204% 84.93% 00.27% { AcAd }

In the above hand, if both players put in 1 unit all-in, then hero's EV is .85*2 - 1 = .7 units.

Now let's see what happens to the EV of AA when against 2 players:

Hand 0: 73.43% 73.69% 00.23% { AcAd }
Hand 1: 13.28% 13.01% 00.36% { random }
Hand 2: 13.28% 13.01% 00.36% { random }

Against two unknowns, Hero's EV is .73*3 -1 = 1.20 units

Finally, against 3 unknowns:

Hand 0: 63.822% 63.71% 00.23% { AcAd }
Hand 1: 12.052% 11.61% 00.47% { random }
Hand 2: 12.073% 11.63% 00.46% { random }
Hand 3: 12.052% 11.61% 00.47% { random }

Against three unknowns, Hero's EV is .63*4 - 1 = 1.55 units.

Example 2: 67s

Hand 0: 45.37% 43.21% 02.57% { 7d6d }
Hand 1: 54.63% 52.55% 02.57% { random }

Against a single random hand, your EV is .45*2 - 1 = -.1.

Hand 0: 31.92% 30.51% 01.54% { 7d6d }
Hand 1: 34.04% 32.46% 01.72% { random }
Hand 2: 34.04% 32.46% 01.72% { random }

Against two random ands, your EV increases to .3192*3 - 1 = -.04. Still unprofitable.

Hand 0: 25.06% 23.76% 01.32% { 7d6d }
Hand 1: 24.98% 23.58% 01.42% { random }
Hand 2: 24.98% 23.58% 01.42% { random }
Hand 3: 24.98% 23.58% 01.42% { random }

Against 3 random hands, your hand is BARELY profitable; EV is .0024 units.

Hand 0: 20.754% 19.54% 01.23% { 7d6d }
Hand 1: 19.811% 18.54% 01.28% { random }
Hand 2: 19.812% 18.55% 01.28% { random }
Hand 3: 19.802% 18.54% 01.27% { random }
Hand 4: 19.821% 18.55% 01.28% { random }

Against 4 random opponents, your EV is .04 units. The EV of suited connectors does not skyrocket when there are more players in the pot.

I almost included a third example showing that the rate of EV increasing is better for very speculative hands like A5 or K7, but I think I've made my point.

My post has nothing to do with the benefits of raising SC's in NLHE. Other posts have already addressed these issues more than adequately. I only wanted to point out the flaws in your initial claims about EV, especially the claim that the EV of SC's skyrockets when there are more players in the pot.

Re: Why Raise with Suited Connectors? (NLHE)
 

This is a case of using EV for the wrong things.

The reason you raise big pocket pairs is NOT because the EV goes up. It usually doesn't. 1 opponent for 2 units looks a lot like 3 or 4 opponents for 1 unit. Obviously in NL, where the raise is several uints, there might be an improvement.

But the REAL issue is one of postflop play. Opponents in multiway pots tend to look for hands bigger than 1 pair. Meanwhile, it's likely that you will have exactly one big pair the whole hand. What this means is that, by virtue of playing a multiway pot, your opponents will play more or perfectly against your one big pair. And when your opponents play perfectly, you loose out on a lot of value.

When you raise, your (often heads-up) opponent now starts trying to defend their equity in the pot with weak hands when the board looks like it missed everyone, which is a legitimate strategy but is disasterous against an overpair. In other words, if you raise your opponents natural inclination after the flop is to make mistakes, whereas if you don't their natural inclination is to play as if you had exactly what you do have.

THAT is why you raise.

Re: Why Raise with Suited Connectors? (NLHE)
 

Note that the same thinking gives opposite resuklts for SCs. People play correctly agaist your suited connectors if you DO raise by trying to take the pot with marginal hands before you hit the draw and then giving up if it doesn't work, and play incorrectly against them if you DON'T raise by giving you free cards and trying to hit dead draws to two pair and trips.

Re: Why Raise with Suited Connectors? (NLHE)
 

The main reason I would raise with suited connectors is for the chance to win a very big pot against an aggressive player. For example raising with 7d 8d will either hit something good and win money or completely miss and is easy to get away from. If the flop comes 5d 6s 2d (obv this is a nice flop that wont happen too often) Your aggressive opponent is most probably not in the mood to fold to your bet on a flop that really looks about as threatening as Robbie Savage. Also if you show down your 7d 8d, players will know that your more than just a 1 trick pony and are capable of mixing it up. All this may sound obvious but surely one of the key things for any poker player is to be difficult to read. If you only play premium hands then surely you're easier to play against no??

Re: Why Raise with Suited Connectors? (NLHE)
 

kbinder... your calculation is correct, but you forgot people don't call with random hands AND they don't even limp with random hands. Preflop, only the blinds have money in the pot and a true random hand.
Also your calculation is who wins if everyone goes to the river (including yourself). There can be many scary boards where you just don't know if your aces (or any other big pair) are good when multiway. You will make more mistakes according to the fundamental theorem of poker (Sklansky, NLHE theory and practice), so you will gain less than you assume.
In other words: You forget you don't win that amount of money of your opponents that fold before the river, but it is harder for you to dertermine when you can make up for this by folding yourself (in a multiway pot).

You are completely forgetting any post flop play. EV postflop is so great with suited connectors in multiway pots, because it only costs you the prelfop amount if you don't catch a draw (4 out of 5 times) but you have around 40% equity in the pot on average of you do get your draw. This equity (unlike big pairs) does not depend a lot on the amount of players in the pot, since you are drawing to a bigger hand than they are most of the time. So your profits rise almost linearly with the amount of players in the pot.

so EV = -(4/5)Preflop + (1/5)(0.4)River

Where:
Preflop = the betsize/blindsize preflop
River = the size of the pot on the river (incl. preflop)

For the River amount a pot was built by a certain amount of players. They all put in their share, but as long as you have am equity bigger than your share of the money you gain by putting in more money;

Number of players - Percentage in pot - Equity
2 50% 40%
3 33% 40%
4 25% 40%
5 20% 40%
6 17% 40%

So you are profitable post flop from 2 or more opponents, since you're equity is larger than the percentage of the money put in the pot by you. The more players, the better. I kept the equity on 40% because that is just a guess... It will probably drop a bit with more players, but I guess it would range between 50% and 35% with a 40% average.

I hope this made sense, GL

Re: Why Raise with Suited Connectors? (NLHE)
 

Reasons to raise Suited connectors:

1)Makes you harder to read

2)Gives cover for your bigger hands.(makes you harder to read)

3)When you hit a big hand with a player that will pay you off, they have a harder time putting you on a SC. Big payday. ('Cause you're harder to read)

4)People think your a donk and play back at you, causing you to make more on your big hands. ("cause your harder to read)

5)Gives you steal opportunities post flop.

I think you get the point. Just don't get carried away with it like too many people do. These are hands that you need to be a reasonably deep to play. Make sure you're aware of who is in the pot, their post flop tenedencies and stack sizes.

Re: Why Raise with Suited Connectors? (NLHE)
 

If you raise with suited connectors people don't respect you when you raise with aces.

Your implied odds are based upon the flop. if you have 5 6 of hearts and the flop comes 2 4 8 you have eight outs for the straight and when you hit it people will make the ultimate mistake.

IF you're in early position you'll notice that a lot of the callers check to the raiser. Often you can steal the pot with a single bet. This even makes so called break even bets profitable.

When someone check raises you or if they bet realy big after the flop--you muck your cards because you're done with them.

This is more the "recipe" answer rather than theory, but you want to make sure you don't do it all the time. Normally you want to limp in with suited connectors, but I like to raise with them in late position on occasion. if i can show the hand down cheaply i will(assuming I don't hit anything)

Most importantly I don't think you can think of hands as being in a vacuum in NLH. IT all depedns on the stacks, the players, you position and many other things. You would definitly play suited connectors differently playing people in a home game who constantly underbet the pot then you would with Doyle Brunson--

Re: Why Raise with Suited Connectors? (NLHE)
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
To build a bigger pot so you can bet more when you make your hand and still get called.

[/ QUOTE ]

Isn't this precisely CONTRARY to the concept of implied odds, though?

[/ QUOTE ]

No it's not precisely contraray to the concept of implied odds. (Actually it could be, I'll get to that in a second.)

Assuming stacks are deep, then all you're doing is raising the stakes. This is not a bad idea at all if
a) you play better than your opponents post flop
b) several opponents will stay with you when you raise.

Now what you've done is basically turned your $1/2 NL game into a $5/10 NL game (or whatever) where you would have limped with this hand, but just for this one hand.

It also has the added benefit of representing a big pair so your hand will be quite deceptive if you hit it.

But this idea breaks down if the stacks are too small. You wouldn't want to do this if everyone was sitting around with $60 in your $1/2 game, for example. You might do it for other reasons, but then you'd be right - you'd be wrecking your implied odds because there's not enough money there to get for those rare times you hit big and get paid off big.

Re: Why Raise with Suited Connectors? (NLHE)
 

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This makes a certain amount of sense with one stipulation - you're against very bad opponents. You may have the choice of playing a worse scenario for higher stakes, or a better scenario for lower stakes, but they're both still very good because your opponents are very bad, so you'd take the higher stakes.

My advice was in the context of much better play.

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But on the other hand, playing better opponents requires more deception, and that's exactly what raising these gives you. If you NEVER raised suited connectors against really smart opponents, you'd be too easy to read. The better your opposition, the less likely you should be to raise SCs for actual hand strength value and implied odds on hitting a hand, and the more likely you should be to raise them for implied odds on disguising your hand (getting paid on unexpected 2 pair or trips more so than flushes and straights, or getting paid on bluffs).

Re: Why Raise with Suited Connectors? (NLHE)
 

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It's just that it's very hard already to draw profitably in NL against a tough lineup. Hell, you could go your whole life and never try to do it except on a semi-bluff and be a winner.

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On the contrary, it's very easy to raise in position preflop and then get a free card on the flop, giving you infinite pot odds on your draw.

Re: Why Raise with Suited Connectors? (NLHE)
 

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Not to be a nit, but remember that the EV of any hand increases when there are more people in the pot, simply because there is more money in the pot (obviously assuming hero voluntarily puts in the same amount).

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That's clearly not true, in the general case. There are many hands (or should I say scenarios or situations) where your EV is higher with fewer people in the hand. Two obvious counterexamples are
1) big pocket pairs in NL (not necessarily limit) where the majority of play will be post flop with deep stacks, and
2)utter trash, where your only hope of making money is based on your ability to win the pot with a bluff.

Re: Why Raise with Suited Connectors? (NLHE)
 

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It's just that it's very hard already to draw profitably in NL against a tough lineup. Hell, you could go your whole life and never try to do it except on a semi-bluff and be a winner.

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On the contrary, it's very easy to raise in position preflop and then get a free card on the flop, giving you infinite pot odds on your draw.

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Any time you take a free card and then a draw hits, observant opponents will notice. You may have infinite pot odds, but your implied odds are shot to hell. This may be the best play in certain circumstances, but usually the semi-bluff is better.

Re: Why Raise with Suited Connectors? (NLHE)
 

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But on the other hand, playing better opponents requires more deception, and that's exactly what raising these gives you. If you NEVER raised suited connectors against really smart opponents, you'd be too easy to read. The better your opposition, the less likely you should be to raise SCs for actual hand strength value and implied odds on hitting a hand, and the more likely you should be to raise them for implied odds on disguising your hand (getting paid on unexpected 2 pair or trips more so than flushes and straights, or getting paid on bluffs).

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There's some merit to what you say. However, I believe there is a MUCH better ways to disguise you hand than raising with SCs when you have no bluff equity. Clever use of pocket pairs and an appropriate preflop bluffing strategy is far superior.