from 5/10 to 10/20 t o15/30
 

This is my first post on this forum.

I have been playing poker seriously for over a year now. I live outside of Chicago, so the live card room scene is not that great. I have been to Tunica 2xs and Vegas 3xs in the last year. I play mostly NL...the limit I have played has been 5/10 and I have had a hard time adapting.

I realize that you need bad players making bad calls for you to profit in poker. But every single hand in 5/10 it seems has 4 people going to showdown...at least 3. So, if you get a hand, say JJ, and raise...get 3 callers...and dont get a J, now what? or even if you flop trips and there is 2 to a flush or straihgt, its been my experience that 1 if not 2-3 people will chase whatever the hole way and usually get lucky. It drives me NUTS

I almost jumped into a 10/20 game at the Mirage last week in Vegas, to see if people would lay down some crap(or atleast 1/2 the table will) Does it make a difference, or at any lower stake do people just call and call and call.

My motto is, you want 2 or 3 bad players at every table, not 6 in every pot

Re: from 5/10 to 10/20 t o15/30
 

No offense, but you don't have a clue about limit HE. It's clear from your post that you have a NL background and you are approaching limit from the same perspective. Hands in limit frequently go to showdown and often many of the people who make it to the river are right to get that far (excluding their usually attrocious preflop calls and cold-calls).

Read Winning Low Limit Hold 'Em by Lee Jones to get some good basic guidelines and then read and reread often Small Stakes Hold Em. It basically will show you how to take advantage of the bad players, especially when there are many seeing the flop.

Re: from 5/10 to 10/20 t o15/30
 

Like you said, you want people to make bad calls. That makes you profit.

Do you have Small Stakes Hold'em? If not, that would help. If so, take another look, and take courage. If it weren't for bad beats, people wouldn't play the game.

Re: from 5/10 to 10/20 t o15/30
 

You do make a valid point. If your point is that a full ring game with two poor players in it can be easier to play in(possibly better) than a full ring game with five or six poor players.

Re: from 5/10 to 10/20 t o15/30
 

You just need to adjust your starting hands. When 1 pair doesnt win you can pretty much play JJ like 22. These loose passive games are incredibly profitable. JTs is a better hand than AQo etc. You just have to draw to more than 1 pair and you ll crush the game since most people go too far with weak hands.

Re: from 5/10 to 10/20 t o15/30
 

[ QUOTE ]
JTs is a better hand than AQo etc

[/ QUOTE ]
Wrong. AQo still has more equity in the general case.

Similar case: how many opponents would you like when you have AA? Most people will say 1 or 2. Wrong. You want 9.

Re: from 5/10 to 10/20 t o15/30
 

[ QUOTE ]
Similar case: how many opponents would you like when you have AA? Most people will say 1 or 2. Wrong. You want 9.

[/ QUOTE ]
When I tell my friends this, they think I'm crazy. However, it is absolutely correct to think this way.

Welcome people who try to chase you down (at least PF when you have a monster hand). They are getting the worst of it.

Re: from 5/10 to 10/20 t o15/30
 

your motto is wrong

listen to this and own it: more bad players make you a bigger winner.

'dig and be dug in return'

Re: from 5/10 to 10/20 t o15/30
 

Ok, yes, I am more of a NL player..but all my experience in Limit has been 5/10. I do understand bad players = profit. I have read Hold Em Poker For Advanced Players and Jennifer Harmon's Limit section in SSII.

But, all the experience I have seen, there is atleast 2 people per hand playing K5 or Q6os or even J4 suited. In addition to those 2 people, there is a decent player with a reaonable hand, and someone else.

So, I get say JJ in mid position with 1 limper in front and make it 2 bets...and get a caller behind, big blind calls and limper calls. Flop is Q 5 9 2 suited....ya know 1 of these donks has A JUNK QUEEN. They call raises with any picture cards. So how do you defend it? Obviously 4 handed you gotta throw the jacks away to a bet. And if they hae 1 of the 2 suited cards...there in.

I realize you need bad players...but 2-3 in EVERY POT is insane. you cant put them on a hand, its impossibe..they play K3 like TT, or a made straight. There iditos and there everywhere.

I played a 5/10 game in Indiana last month..had 66 and raised from late position. BB called with Q2 OS. Flop comes Q66...I bet he calls. Turn and river is both Q's..I lose with Quads to bigger Quads. But WHy would he call a raised pot with Q2 OS??????

The card room here in Joliet just reopened, and I am going there now to try the 10/20.

Basically..Im asking at what levels, do people start repecting raises? Making bad calls is fine...but 4 people making MISERABLE CALLS AND CATCHING....it sucks

Re: from 5/10 to 10/20 t o15/30
 

[ QUOTE ]
Ok, yes, I am more of a NL player..but all my experience in Limit has been 5/10. I do understand bad players = profit. I have read Hold Em Poker For Advanced Players and Jennifer Harmon's Limit section in SSII.

But, all the experience I have seen, there is atleast 2 people per hand playing K5 or Q6os or even J4 suited. In addition to those 2 people, there is a decent player with a reaonable hand, and someone else.

So, I get say JJ in mid position with 1 limper in front and make it 2 bets...and get a caller behind, big blind calls and limper calls. Flop is Q 5 9 2 suited....ya know 1 of these donks has A JUNK QUEEN. They call raises with any picture cards. So how do you defend it? Obviously 4 handed you gotta throw the jacks away to a bet. And if they hae 1 of the 2 suited cards...there in.

I realize you need bad players...but 2-3 in EVERY POT is insane. you cant put them on a hand, its impossibe..they play K3 like TT, or a made straight. There iditos and there everywhere.

I played a 5/10 game in Indiana last month..had 66 and raised from late position. BB called with Q2 OS. Flop comes Q66...I bet he calls. Turn and river is both Q's..I lose with Quads to bigger Quads. But WHy would he call a raised pot with Q2 OS??????

The card room here in Joliet just reopened, and I am going there now to try the 10/20.

Basically..Im asking at what levels, do people start repecting raises? Making bad calls is fine...but 4 people making MISERABLE CALLS AND CATCHING....it sucks

[/ QUOTE ]

you're an idiot. you want this in every game. lol@ respecting raises.

Re: from 5/10 to 10/20 t o15/30
 

When they respect your raises you don't win crap with a made hand.

I was in a game last weekend that was great, 4-8 limit and they were going nuts. 4-5 people calling a capped bet preflop, calling down marginal hands ect. ect. I pulled $400 from that table.

Re: from 5/10 to 10/20 t o15/30
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Ok, yes, I am more of a NL player..but all my experience in Limit has been 5/10. I do understand bad players = profit. I have read Hold Em Poker For Advanced Players and Jennifer Harmon's Limit section in SSII.

But, all the experience I have seen, there is atleast 2 people per hand playing K5 or Q6os or even J4 suited. In addition to those 2 people, there is a decent player with a reaonable hand, and someone else.

So, I get say JJ in mid position with 1 limper in front and make it 2 bets...and get a caller behind, big blind calls and limper calls. Flop is Q 5 9 2 suited....ya know 1 of these donks has A JUNK QUEEN. They call raises with any picture cards. So how do you defend it? Obviously 4 handed you gotta throw the jacks away to a bet. And if they hae 1 of the 2 suited cards...there in.

I realize you need bad players...but 2-3 in EVERY POT is insane. you cant put them on a hand, its impossibe..they play K3 like TT, or a made straight. There iditos and there everywhere.

I played a 5/10 game in Indiana last month..had 66 and raised from late position. BB called with Q2 OS. Flop comes Q66...I bet he calls. Turn and river is both Q's..I lose with Quads to bigger Quads. But WHy would he call a raised pot with Q2 OS??????

The card room here in Joliet just reopened, and I am going there now to try the 10/20.

Basically..Im asking at what levels, do people start repecting raises? Making bad calls is fine...but 4 people making MISERABLE CALLS AND CATCHING....it sucks

[/ QUOTE ]

you're an idiot. you want this in every game. lol@ respecting raises.

[/ QUOTE ]

whatever...im sorry I even brought this post up, I guess nobody undertands my Point of view

Re: from 5/10 to 10/20 t o15/30
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Ok, yes, I am more of a NL player..but all my experience in Limit has been 5/10. I do understand bad players = profit. I have read Hold Em Poker For Advanced Players and Jennifer Harmon's Limit section in SSII.

But, all the experience I have seen, there is atleast 2 people per hand playing K5 or Q6os or even J4 suited. In addition to those 2 people, there is a decent player with a reaonable hand, and someone else.

So, I get say JJ in mid position with 1 limper in front and make it 2 bets...and get a caller behind, big blind calls and limper calls. Flop is Q 5 9 2 suited....ya know 1 of these donks has A JUNK QUEEN. They call raises with any picture cards. So how do you defend it? Obviously 4 handed you gotta throw the jacks away to a bet. And if they hae 1 of the 2 suited cards...there in.

I realize you need bad players...but 2-3 in EVERY POT is insane. you cant put them on a hand, its impossibe..they play K3 like TT, or a made straight. There iditos and there everywhere.

I played a 5/10 game in Indiana last month..had 66 and raised from late position. BB called with Q2 OS. Flop comes Q66...I bet he calls. Turn and river is both Q's..I lose with Quads to bigger Quads. But WHy would he call a raised pot with Q2 OS??????

The card room here in Joliet just reopened, and I am going there now to try the 10/20.

Basically..Im asking at what levels, do people start repecting raises? Making bad calls is fine...but 4 people making MISERABLE CALLS AND CATCHING....it sucks

[/ QUOTE ]

you're an idiot. you want this in every game. lol@ respecting raises.

[/ QUOTE ]

whatever...im sorry I even brought this post up, I guess nobody undertands my Point of view

[/ QUOTE ]

everyone understood your point of view at the beginning. Once they learn how to win they realize how ridiculous they sounded.

Re: from 5/10 to 10/20 t o15/30
 

[ QUOTE ]


whatever...im sorry I even brought this post up, I guess nobody undertands my Point of view

[/ QUOTE ]

Don't take it personal, people are actually trying to help you. Save this post and look at it one year from now and if you've improved as a player, trust me you'll have a good laugh.

Re: from 5/10 to 10/20 t o15/30
 

It is hard when things can't go just the way you want them all the time.

Re: from 5/10 to 10/20 t o15/30
 

It is very frustrating, these types of games; I personally hate them with all my heart. How I wish I could still find one... [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

Re: from 5/10 to 10/20 t o15/30
 

...or go back to no limit?

It seems to be something basic within us. You may be genetically suited to NL. I've found I'm not. I'm perfectly suited and happy to play limit poker. I don't mind the suckouts at limit, but hate it at no limit. I play profitably at limit, but not so well at no limit. I can sit and grind for hours at limit, but get antsy at no limit.

Perhaps you are better off at the no limit tables.

CJ

Re: from 5/10 to 10/20 t o15/30
 

you're probably a losing player in the games and are chalking it up to bad luck.

Re: from 5/10 to 10/20 t o15/30
 

^not true at all. Even the hands I'm not involved with drive me nuts. I think I was experiencing the far end of the sprectrum of loose wild miserably weak players...6 in every game/pot

I actually ended up playing 5/10 last night...I won a little bit..which brings up my next bitch at the lower limit, lol...

the rake. We were 7 handed...the game was pretty quick, I figured in 2 hours, I saw around 40 hands, so each payed about $17-20 an hour in rakes, plus being in the blind so often. i actually played better, and the game was really weak...the dealer was cool. i explained my thought on limit here to him...he said the 10/20 game is good there(1 table and i was third on list)..and theres a 20/40 game a hour away he said that can be killed

Re: from 5/10 to 10/20 t o15/30
 

In order to be a good limit player you have to learn how to beat loose/passive (calling station) and loose/aggressive (maniac) type games.
In these games you have to open up your starting standards some. Limp with any pocket pair and mid to high suited connectors. You will loose more with big pairs and AK but win some big pots when you hit trips or a straight/flush.
Focus on winning the big pots when you have a big edge in the hand and folding marginal draws when the pot is small.
One problem in playing in these type games is sometimes you will go card dead and have loosing sessions. If moves don't work and the hand goes to showdown everytime, sometimes three or four way you have to have the goods to win.
Read SSHE and impliment what it teaches or else go back to no-limit where you can bet enough to get people not to chase properly.

Also think about this, how profitable would it be if you raised with AA in mid position and everyone folded. How much will you make in a tight game like this?

Re: from 5/10 to 10/20 t o15/30
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]


whatever...im sorry I even brought this post up, I guess nobody undertands my Point of view

[/ QUOTE ]

Don't take it personal, people are actually trying to help you. Save this post and look at it one year from now and if you've improved as a player, trust me you'll have a good laugh.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is absolutely true. I had a similar situaiton when I started playing limit and now I think back on it and laugh. Trust me - the more you play you'll adjust your game and beat the bejesus out of these games.

Also, as mentioned, read Small Stakes Hold 'Em. Harman is great, but the advice doesn't translate to low-limit games with many callers.

One final thing I've had to adjust to: Most loose-passive players will *never* try to bluff you. If they wake up on fourth street and raise you're probably beaten. Check for redraws and muck your hand if you have few or none. It sucks but will pay off in the long haul.

Good luck.

Re: from 5/10 to 10/20 t o15/30
 

[ QUOTE ]
In order to be a good limit player you have to learn how to beat loose/passive (calling station) and loose/aggressive (maniac) type games.
In these games you have to open up your starting standards some. Limp with any pocket pair and mid to high suited connectors. You will loose more with big pairs and AK but win some big pots when you hit trips or a straight/flush.
Focus on winning the big pots when you have a big edge in the hand and folding marginal draws when the pot is small.
One problem in playing in these type games is sometimes you will go card dead and have loosing sessions. If moves don't work and the hand goes to showdown everytime, sometimes three or four way you have to have the goods to win.
Read SSHE and impliment what it teaches or else go back to no-limit where you can bet enough to get people not to chase properly.

Also think about this, how profitable would it be if you raised with AA in mid position and everyone folded. How much will you make in a tight game like this?

[/ QUOTE ]

QFT

nh, sir

Re: from 5/10 to 10/20 t o15/30
 

[ QUOTE ]
One final thing I've had to adjust to: Most loose-passive players will *never* try to bluff you. If they wake up on fourth street and raise you're probably beaten. Check for redraws and muck your hand if you have few or none. It sucks but will pay off in the long haul.

[/ QUOTE ]

...or the second to last thing.

Once you learn that LPs won't bluff you and you start laying down hands, you'll realize that they also frequently overvalue their hands and THINK they've got a better hand when often yours is better. Then you have to improve your hand reading skills (and player reading skills) so you can decide which to lay down and which to value raise.

Then, after that, there's probably another "last thing to know." I just don't know what I don't know, yet.

CJ

Re: from 5/10 to 10/20 t o15/30
 

My problem is often they think they have a worse hand than me, but still call down. I'm wondering why they don't raise, so I keep firing figuring my hand is good. What I fail to realize is that my previous betting and raising scared them, and they are now just calling and hoping to win. For example, I have QJ, flop comes Q2Q 3 players. Bet, call, I raise, call, limp 3 bet... I cap. Turn check, bet, I raise again. He just calls. River he checks, I bet, he calls. He shows 22 for the flopped boat.

Re: from 5/10 to 10/20 t o15/30
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
One final thing I've had to adjust to: Most loose-passive players will *never* try to bluff you. If they wake up on fourth street and raise you're probably beaten. Check for redraws and muck your hand if you have few or none. It sucks but will pay off in the long haul.

[/ QUOTE ]

...or the second to last thing.

Once you learn that LPs won't bluff you and you start laying down hands, you'll realize that they also frequently overvalue their hands and THINK they've got a better hand when often yours is better. Then you have to improve your hand reading skills (and player reading skills) so you can decide which to lay down and which to value raise.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yep, that's a good one. I just had an instance of that last night when I missed a value raise after flopping a low boat with a PP and having a LP re-raise (it may have even been a check raise) me on the river. I was convinced he'd flopped trips and made a better boat on the river so I just crying called. Turned out he rivered a really bad runner runner straight and was super proud of it apparently.

I was initially thinking of pretty two-dimentional situations where you've made it painfully obvious you have an overpair and suddenly some calling station check raises your turn bet when he makes his second pair on Q-9.

This game is complicated. [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

Re: from 5/10 to 10/20 t o15/30
 

First off, you aren't an idiot like most people here are saying. Your beliefs were common beliefs to low limit players trying to build up before the publish of Small Stakes Hold Em. Your problem is that you are trying to play a 5-10 game like a 20-40 game (here in LA, some 20-40 games don't even play like 20-40 games). You are trying to apply the principles of Hold Em for Advanced Players in a game that just isn't geared for it (Although if memory serves correctly, they do address loose play in HEAP, just not as indepthly as in SSHE).

Other then you being called an idiot, the advice here has been solid. READ SSHE, UNDERSTAND the concepts, and more importantly have faith that the concepts work. You can beat the loose 5-10 game but you need to understand a different set of concepts then those that are taught in the advanced player series. It will serve you well, for once you move up, some higher limit games will turn very loose at times and you can utilize the same concepts to crush them!

Best of luck,

DW

Re: from 5/10 to 10/20 t o15/30
 

[ QUOTE ]
My problem is often they think they have a worse hand than me, but still call down. I'm wondering why they don't raise, so I keep firing figuring my hand is good. What I fail to realize is that my previous betting and raising scared them, and they are now just calling and hoping to win. For example, I have QJ, flop comes Q2Q 3 players. Bet, call, I raise, call, limp 3 bet... I cap. Turn check, bet, I raise again. He just calls. River he checks, I bet, he calls. He shows 22 for the flopped boat.

[/ QUOTE ]

But in all fairness, flopping a boat like that is a weak boat (albeit stronger in limit then it is in NL). One sunny afternoon at a nice fat SD NL game, I built up my stack to a respectable $1200 (in a 2-3 game). I flopped the small boat like that, lost to a larger boat after we both went all in on the flop. Lost my entire stack and haven't played NL since. Beats like that make me twitch [img]/images/graemlins/mad.gif[/img]

Re: from 5/10 to 10/20 t o15/30
 

while we're on the subject of SSHE I was wondering what people think about the starting hand selections in that book? Don't you think they're a bit too loose, especially the hand selections they have for loose tables? I know it all depends on the situation but still...

Re: from 5/10 to 10/20 t o15/30
 

Before I respond, I should note that my experience in small stakes is almost exclusively live games, so if you are referring to online play you should take this with a grain of salt.

I think if you are getting the players on the flop that they assume in the book, you are fine. Usually low limit live games always have the players (the looseness hardly ever dries up, except if you are playing on the days where it seems like they are offering a free Senior Buffet). In low limit you just have to watch the aggressive games. Sometimes a table can shift from passive to aggressive and if you don't react accordingly and very quickly, you could leak some bets. So I would say so long as you aren't in a game that has gone hyper-aggressive, the starting hand requirements are pretty good.

I also like to watch my relative position. So if I have a borderline late position starting hand from SSHE, and the blinds are aggressive players, I might let it go (even though I have position).

But that's just my opinion [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/crazy.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

DW

Re: from 5/10 to 10/20 t o15/30
 

for online games $3/6 and up SSHE is too loose. (the tight chart)

Re: from 5/10 to 10/20 t o15/30
 

[ QUOTE ]
for online games $3/6 and up SSHE is too loose. (the tight chart)

[/ QUOTE ]

Agreed. Online limit games are generally much, much tighter than live ones. I've played .50/1 games online that are tighter than the 10/20 I played live Monday night, and certainly tighter than every 5/10 game I've seen since the local casino opened up poker (chop the blinds? what's that? [img]/images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img]).

Re: from 5/10 to 10/20 t o15/30
 

[ QUOTE ]
He shows 22 for the flopped boat.

[/ QUOTE ]

God Bless America! What a country! [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

In the past two months, I've seen 5 boats checked on the river, including times when the check was from the player last to act. What more can you want? They pay you off when you've got the goods, and don't charge you when they have the goods. That's profit, baby!

CJ

Re: from 5/10 to 10/20 t o15/30
 

[ QUOTE ]
This game is complicated. [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

Barry Tanenbaum told me this:

"Limit poker is the perfect gambling game, because it has three elements: One, it's easy to learn. Second, it's sufficiently difficult to keep interest up for a long time. And third, luck can win."

After 30 years out here, I guess he's learned some things.

I agree with him. It's so complicated that after almost 3 years of intensive study and experience, I'm still not an expert. I could have had a Master's Degree if I'd spent as much time in school in this time, but I wouldn't have had as much fun. (Excluding chasing co-eds as if I were Groucho Marx.)

What makes it so deliciously complex is the adjustments you have to make constantly. You can never do the same thing all the time if you expect to win consistently.

CJ

Re: from 5/10 to 10/20 t o15/30
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]


whatever...im sorry I even brought this post up, I guess nobody undertands my Point of view

[/ QUOTE ]

Don't take it personal, people are actually trying to help you. Save this post and look at it one year from now and if you've improved as a player, trust me you'll have a good laugh.

[/ QUOTE ]

Or cringe. My early posts make me want to cringe.

AB