Stars Takes No Action Against Players Cheating In SNG
 

I was playing in a $10+1 SNG at Stars yesterday and we were down to the bubble. I was the shortstack at the table and the blinds were starting to get pretty high. For the most part, the other three players were staying out of each others' way and looking for a shot to eliminate me to get in the money. However, on one hand, two of the players saw the flop after a raise and one bet out into the other. While the other player was debating whether or not to call, the player that bet out announced that he had top pair top kicker and that the other player should fold to avoid an expensive pot.

By having that type of conversation in chat, the two players involved ensured that two larger stacks would avoid a big pot and helped ensure that they would outlast the shortstack (me) at the table. While avoiding such confrontations is perfectly acceptable when done tacitly, having discussions at the table like this is a blatant violation of the tournament rules.

I reported the incident to Stars and got a response indicating that they were going to conduct an investigation. Later in the evening, I received a second response with the results of their investigation. The email stated that the conduct was in fact a violation of the tournament rules - in essence, the players had cheated - but because their was no history of cooperative play between these players that no action would be taken other than a warning.

What is the point of having rules if there are no consequences to be faced for breaking them?

What is the point of conducting an investigation to determine whether players have cheated if you aren't going to take action after determining that they have?

Re: Stars Takes No Action Against Players Cheating In SNG
 

The point is Stars acknowledged that they violated the rules and their accounts are now flagged with a warning. The simple truth is people do stupid [censored] sometimes and they're not always acting maliciously or with full knowledge that they are actually doing something wrong. Since they both obviously had no history of similar complaints they were issued a warning which is consistent with the policy of PokerStars. If anyone has problems with these players in the future their accounts will indicate they've already been warned for this type of behavior and will not be treated as leniently as a result. It's not like your complaint goes completely unnoticed and if these guys continue to discuss hands in that manner it will result in further disciplinary actions. I think that's fair if this really is their first offense.

Re: Stars Takes No Action Against Players Cheating In SNG
 

It is true, cheating is OK at stars

Re: Stars Takes No Action Against Players Cheating In SNG
 

i agree, that's unfair to you. what they should have done is transferred half of each player's winnings from that tournament to you as a penalty/compensation.

the issue isn't that these players are dangerous, or shady or anything like that. it's that they cheated the poster out of short-term money, whether they knew it or not.

Re: Stars Takes No Action Against Players Cheating In SNG
 

Blame Jamie Golds retarded ass. People see the world champ do it and think they can. "I got TOP TOP" FREAKIN IDIOT

Re: Stars Takes No Action Against Players Cheating In SNG
 

The title of thread should be changed to "Stars takes appropriate action for an $11 SNG, I just don't agree with it"

p.s. if you bug them enough, I'm sure they'll give you your $11 back.

Re: Stars Takes No Action Against Players Cheating In SNG
 

[ QUOTE ]
Blame Jamie Golds retarded ass. People see the world champ do it and think they can. "I got TOP TOP" FREAKIN IDIOT

[/ QUOTE ]
Yeah, because this kind of stuff never happened before Jamie Gold. [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

Re: Stars Takes No Action Against Players Cheating In SNG
 

Yup, moron should get a permaban, and you should get the balance of his account as compensation.

Re: Stars Takes No Action Against Players Cheating In SNG
 

The proper course of action in a situation like this is for the players that broke the rules to be disqualified and for the remaining players to be "promoted" into their spots. Stars themselves have done this in the past. In one thread in here not too long ago in which Lee Jones replied, a player complained of simliar conduct in a satellite tournament. The offending players were disqualified and the next two in line got the tourney entries.

Re: Stars Takes No Action Against Players Cheating In SNG
 

Had this happen on FTP the other day.... FTP Banned the guys chat for 30day and he was paid out according to what place was next to go out. Everyone moved up 1 spot ahead of him....

Table talk such as this is such BS and I felt I was compensated properly with the action that were taken....

Re: Stars Takes No Action Against Players Cheating In SNG
 

[ QUOTE ]
Blame Jamie Golds retarded ass. People see the world champ do it and think they can. "I got TOP TOP" FREAKIN IDIOT

[/ QUOTE ]
lol

Re: Stars Takes No Action Against Players Cheating In SNG
 

Similar incident --- and similar reply --- in my case the player was extremely pot committed and induced to fold.

MY SUBMISSION:

Subject: Tournament 36014771

Late in this tournamnet (Hand #7050645036) JordanRR disclosed to another player that he had KK in order to induce a fold. I feel that this is not right as the other player was pot comitted to call. As a result, I
finished out of the money and it cost me at least $189.00. I feel that the game should be halted and declared a foul at this point and the prize money be split 4 ways.

It is inappropriate to discuss a live hand.

Thank you in advance.


POKERSTARS SUPPORT:

Thank you for your email.

I appreciate the time you took to write us regarding your concern. As we cannot monitor every table 24 hours, we are glad to have players as our "eyes and ears".

I have issued this player a Rule 16 warning for these actions. Rule 16 from our tournament rules page states:

"Players, whether in the hand or not, may not discuss the hands until the action is complete. Players are obligated to protect the other players in the tournament at all times. Discussing cards discarded or hand possibilities is not allowed. A penalty may be given for discussion of hands during the play."

If he/she continues to make such comments, further corrective action will be taken, and possible revocation of his/her play could ensue.

Regards,

Adam
PokerStars Support Team

TOTAL BS

Re: Stars Takes No Action Against Players Cheating In SNG
 

for the simple fact they may be new to online poker and not even be aware what they did is unethical.

Re: Stars Takes No Action Against Players Cheating In SNG
 

[ QUOTE ]
for the simple fact they may be new to online poker and not even be aware what they did is unethical.

[/ QUOTE ]

So it's ok for them to cheat and that I lose money and they win money because they are new and don't know better?

Re: Stars Takes No Action Against Players Cheating In SNG
 

don't you think it's healthy to table talk, if you are full of it, and just are talking trash. Is it okay, if you are constantly telling people to fold? Lying about what cards your really have? Is it only wrong when there are more than 2 people in the hand? I'm not sure exactly where to draw the line, but some table talk is harmless correct?

Re: Stars Takes No Action Against Players Cheating In SNG
 

7 distinct points:

1) In situations like this, I bet on human stupidity more than human evil every single time.

2) I believe that human stupidity is infinitely more powerful than human evil.

3) When "cheating" there needs to be some evidence that the people breaking the rules had some knowledge that what they were doing is wrong.

4) In criminal situations, for relatively minor, first-offence cases, it is common for various warnings, good behaviour bonds, suspended sentences and the like to dissuade future misbehaviour

5) From what you say, there seems to be no clear intent to defraud other players - they're only looking to protect their own winnings (as distinct from deliberate efforts to thieve from others, such as collusion when you are directly in a hand)

6) Situations like this are rarely black and white. There is a degree of grey, especially at a relatively low level when players may not realise what they are doing is wrong.

7) It is untrue to say that Stars took "no action" in this situation - a warning is clearly action.

Re: Stars Takes No Action Against Players Cheating In SNG
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
for the simple fact they may be new to online poker and not even be aware what they did is unethical.

[/ QUOTE ]

So it's ok for them to cheat and that I lose money and they win money because they are new and don't know better?

[/ QUOTE ]

No, it's not OK. That's why they get a warning, which is exactly what would have happened at a live casino at these stakes. What do you expect Stars to do? Ban them? Confiscate their winnings? You probably didn't lose anything anyway since when people tank like that, 99% of the time they have no intention of calling.

Re: Stars Takes No Action Against Players Cheating In SNG
 

[ QUOTE ]
don't you think it's healthy to table talk, if you are full of it, and just are talking trash. Is it okay, if you are constantly telling people to fold? Lying about what cards your really have? Is it only wrong when there are more than 2 people in the hand? I'm not sure exactly where to draw the line, but some table talk is harmless correct?

[/ QUOTE ]

In cash games, sure. Not in tournaments.

Re: Stars Takes No Action Against Players Cheating In SNG
 

1. Whether it was stupidity or intentional, it doesn't change the fact that their actions broke the rules (Stars already made this conclusion so those of you saying they didn't break the rules are missing the point of this thread). Someone used the analogy of a first-time criminal. Yes they get suspended sentences and usually walk away without jail time, but they are also required as part of that to make restitution to the victims of their actions (as an attorney, I'm speaking from experience on this point). That's why the usual action in this type of case - disqualifying the offenders and moving the next people up - is particularly appropriate given your analogy.

2. There doesn't need to be any indication that they knew they were breaking the rules. Every one of us agree to terms and conditions when we joined the site. They're bound by them whether they took the time to read them or not.

Re: Stars Takes No Action Against Players Cheating In SNG
 

tell stars to ship you your .023024923 equity the cheater owes you. that'll teach him.

Re: Stars Takes No Action Against Players Cheating In SNG
 

DOESN'T ANYBODY GIVE A [censored] ABOUT THE RULES ANYMORE?

http://66.218.63.245/web/Walter-Sobchak.jpg

Seriously dude, this is a really minor offence and everyone in this thread agrees with Stars that a warning is appropriate. If you disagree then don't play on Stars anymore, but honestly you must be either a nit or a losing player to give a toss about this happening in a $11 SNG. I've had this happen in a $109 SNG and I simply typed in chat "Hey shut up that's against the rules", which netted an apparently sincere apology from the guy, who probably just hadn't thought through what he was doing. That was it as far as I was concerned. Why get punitive against losing players?

Re: Stars Takes No Action Against Players Cheating In SNG
 

Don't think the buy is relevant. $11 SNG may be large to him. You think the action should be different if buy in was $1000+ or larger?

Re: Stars Takes No Action Against Players Cheating In SNG
 

[ QUOTE ]
When "cheating" there needs to be some evidence that the people breaking the rules had some knowledge that what they were doing is wrong.


[/ QUOTE ]

I really disagree with this. If another player is materially harmed by other players breaking the rules, then I don't think it matters a bit whether they knew the rules coming in.

I think of it like a football game. If you agree to play a refereed football game then you can hardly complain when you get a face-masking penalty. I am kind of sick of the idiot excuse when the rules of play are available to everyone and are clearly spelled out.

This player was harmed by some idiot and I think that Stars should simply be judging the monetary damage of the cheating and redistributing the prize money accordingly.

Re: Stars Takes No Action Against Players Cheating In SNG
 

[ QUOTE ]
Don't think the buy is relevant. $11 SNG may be large to him. You think the action should be different if buy in was $1000+ or larger?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes. The main thing is that players in a $11 are very likely to be inexperienced newbies. When it happened to me in a $109, the player who did it was pretty bad at poker, so I figured he's likely a newbie. If a regular did it, my reaction would be different.

Also, yes again to punishment being more severe when larger sums of money are involved. We don't treat shoplifters identically to bank robbers in the real world.

Re: Stars Takes No Action Against Players Cheating In SNG
 

btw I agree that along with a warning, some small financial restitution should be made in the situation described by the OP. The rules are on their website, thus it should not be allowed for a player to ignore them without any penalty whatsoever.

Re: Stars Takes No Action Against Players Cheating In SNG
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Don't think the buy is relevant. $11 SNG may be large to him. You think the action should be different if buy in was $1000+ or larger?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes. The main thing is that players in a $11 are very likely to be inexperienced newbies. When it happened to me in a $109, the player who did it was pretty bad at poker, so I figured he's likely a newbie. If a regular did it, my reaction would be different.

Also, yes again to punishment being more severe when larger sums of money are involved. We don't treat shoplifters identically to bank robbers in the real world.

[/ QUOTE ]


So we can't have a table full of experienced $11 SNGers?
I disagree. And what if $10,000 to blow on a tournament is nothing to me and I am inexperienced and I break the rules? Can we then say that no action be taken because I was inexperienced?

THe REAL world response to shoplifting or bankrobbing depends on where and when(in time) that you live. Depending on these variables you could lose life and limb for either.

Besides, your analogy suggests that their rule infractions were INTENTIONAL.

Re: Stars Takes No Action Against Players Cheating In SNG
 

the fact that there have been so many posts in this thread proves that this situation requires subject interpretation.


stars, using the information available to them, have made such a subjective intepretation.


if you (OP) disagrees with that subjective intepretation, you should contact them and share your views. that's really all there is to this - some people (such as I) agree with stars, and others don't.


there's no black/white answer here, and people who are suggesting otherwise are being caught up in their own importance.

Re: Stars Takes No Action Against Players Cheating In SNG
 

So did the "talker" show the hand down, or was he bluffing trying to win the tournament? Is it only cheating if he is telling the truth?

Is it wrong to "bluff" with table talk? Especially online, where there are no physical tells? I have often felt like typing "I have KK" when I really do, before pushing a small stack late in a tournament that I know both blinds and any Ax are going to call and bust me out. Would that be cheating? I did that live once with AA and KK called anyway and busted me out, no one complained about it then.

Re: Stars Takes No Action Against Players Cheating In SNG
 

I don't agree that the amount of money that was at stake should determine what the appropriate action is. The rules should protect the low limit players equally. I also think it does not matter if those players were aware of the fact that they are breaking the rules.
A simple warning might still be in order. That is hard to say if we don't know all the facts including the mucking player's hand.

[ QUOTE ]
We don't treat shoplifters identically to bank robbers in the real world.

[/ QUOTE ]

Stealing and robbery are two very different crimes. The reason they are punished differently is the not the amount of money involved.

Re: Stars Takes No Action Against Players Cheating In SNG
 

Players agree to the rules when they sign up whether they read them or not. If a player does something like this and didn't know it what wrong, its the players own fault and should still be punished.

Re: Stars Takes No Action Against Players Cheating In SNG
 

[ QUOTE ]
Seriously dude, this is a really minor offence and everyone in this thread agrees with Stars that a warning is appropriate.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not "everyone" likes to jump on PokerStars' balls. And the buy-in is irrelevant. And who are you to say "if you don't like their ruling don't play there?"

Lastly, why must the OP be a losing player because he is fuming over a $11 SNG? Intentionally or not, he was clearly cheated out of money. How would you feel if you are cheated out of 2 grand and a high stakes player tells you to "chill"?

Re: Stars Takes No Action Against Players Cheating In SNG
 

[ QUOTE ]
btw I agree that along with a warning, some small financial restitution should be made in the situation described by the OP. The rules are on their website, thus it should not be allowed for a player to ignore them without any penalty whatsoever.

[/ QUOTE ]

Which rule dictates that someone who breaks it must pay financial restitution? There is no specific rule governing this situation other than "it is not allowed" and there is no penalty on the books (other than issueing warnings based on the history of the players). Every rule, even in tournaments, based on stuff like this gives the director the right to make a judgement call. Why should this be any different?

Re: Stars Takes No Action Against Players Cheating In SNG
 

[ QUOTE ]
Blame Jamie Golds retarded ass. People see the world champ do it and think they can. "I got TOP TOP" FREAKIN IDIOT


[/ QUOTE ]

Matt Savage said that if he was the tournament director, Jamie Gold would have been penalized for discussing his hands.

Re: Stars Takes No Action Against Players Cheating In SNG
 

@Josem-

[ QUOTE ]
6) Situations like this are rarely black and white. There is a degree of grey, especially at a relatively low level when players may not realise what they are doing is wrong.


[/ QUOTE ]

Look at the post I linked though. That situation was not gray at all, or low limits, and Stars just let them walk. There are also other situations like when the 2 players (I forget who) openly admitted that they would softplay each other HU at the high NL tables and Stars did nothing. Stars is just too easy on cheaters


@terrellk11

[ QUOTE ]
2. There doesn't need to be any indication that they knew they were breaking the rules. Every one of us agree to terms and conditions when we joined the site. They're bound by them whether they took the time to read them or not.

[/ QUOTE ]

I said something similar to stars in one of my many emails about that situation, and they basically said we know nobody reads those so we let them off easy. I'll search for email and exact wording later, but it is likely gone

Re: Stars Takes No Action Against Players Cheating In SNG
 

hulk3rules - I read that post.

I would be much more inclined to penalise those players more heavily than these players.

I believe the actions by the players in both situations are wrong.


However, people are wrong when they say that the people who did the wrong thing recevied no punishment. They received a warning. That is the first level of punishment at this site.



I also restate my original point that human stupidity & ignorance is far more likely to have caused this problem than human evil. given this, i think that warning people who are ignorant of the rules strikes a fair balance here.



since our governments have crap legislation that makes online gambling sites operate offshore, we have no recourse or right of appeal. [censored] happens. deal with it.

this is further reason to legalise & regulate such sites, and have them based in reputable western countries.

Re: Stars Takes No Action Against Players Cheating In SNG
 

Be Gentle to the Novices - cardplayer article by Lee Jones

Cliffnotes: Don't bite the hand that feeds you.

Re: Stars Takes No Action Against Players Cheating In SNG
 

To those of you claiming that leniency is appropriate when dealing with new or inexperienced players, I would say that I absolutely agree with you. However, that doesn't apply here. The player that initiated the table talk has logged more than 1200 SNGs at Stars and the other player has more than 450 SNGs.

I also might not be as upset if they had apologized when I pointed out that their chat was against the tournament rules. Rather than apologizing, they both responded with essentially the same answer: "So . . . there's nothing you can do about it."

These weren't innocent players accidentally breaking rules. After a combined total of 1900+ tables they should know the rules and should pay at least a modicum of respect towards them.

Re: Stars Takes No Action Against Players Cheating In SNG
 

[ QUOTE ]
To those of you claiming that leniency is appropriate when dealing with new or inexperienced players, I would say that I absolutely agree with you. However, that doesn't apply here. The player that initiated the table talk has logged more than 1200 SNGs at Stars and the other player has more than 450 SNGs.

I also might not be as upset if they had apologized when I pointed out that their chat was against the tournament rules. Rather than apologizing, they both responded with essentially the same answer: "So . . . there's nothing you can do about it."

These weren't innocent players accidentally breaking rules. After a combined total of 1900+ tables they should know the rules and should pay at least a modicum of respect towards them.

[/ QUOTE ]

And this is information you are just providing now? Wanker.

Look, there are a number of sanctions allowed for violating the rules. A warning is one of them. You disagree with the sanction, fine. But its pretty misleading, if not an outright lie to say stars takes no action, and as an attorney, I think you'd be aware of that. If you engaged in such misrepresentations in your dealings as an attorney and got reported for an ethics violation to your state bar and they gave you a warning would you feel that no action had been taken?

--Zetack

edit: I appologize for the wanker comment. But how many times have you weighed in already in this thread against people who disagree with you, without providing this information that could influence peoples take on the situation?

Re: Stars Takes No Action Against Players Cheating In SNG
 

[ QUOTE ]
The proper course of action in a situation like this is for the players that broke the rules to be disqualified and for the remaining players to be "promoted" into their spots. Stars themselves have done this in the past. In one thread in here not too long ago in which Lee Jones replied, a player complained of simliar conduct in a satellite tournament. The offending players were disqualified and the next two in line got the tourney entries.

[/ QUOTE ]

given your other post about restitution in the criminal justice context I'm tempted to get into a discussion about the appropriate level of damages, but I won't since I think the two situations are not in any way comprable.

However, I will enquire - its not clear from your OP whether the second player did anything wrong. Unless there's more detail you're leaving out, why are you saying he should be disqualified?

Re: Stars Takes No Action Against Players Cheating In SNG
 

The second player arguably didn't do anything wrong and I wouldn't personally take action against him. He didn't solicit the assistance and would have been an idiot not to act on it.

As for only just now providing the information regaridng the number of tables played, I didn't provide it earlier as I didn't have it earlier. The post immediately before the one in which I added that information, I thought there might be some merit to the argument and decided to sharkscope the two players.

And the term "wanker" is just too funny to take offense to.