Nutflush vs. Straightflush, can I fold here ever? $25PLO
 

No reads on players except they're pretty bad but what can I put him on here? Had a bad feeling as soon as he checkraised the turn.


Hand #37040414-95867 at Coronado (Pot Limit Omaha)
Started at 28/Jan/07 07:53:47

Law Of One is at seat 0 with $15.25.
BreakUrHeart is at seat 1 with $39.65.
Racer_ X is at seat 2 with $25.05.
Jake_Camp is at seat 3 with $38.
moeBme is at seat 4 with $22.35.
hemiking57 is at seat 5 with $18.25.
The button is at seat 5.

Law Of One posts the small blind of $.10.
BreakUrHeart posts the big blind of $.25.

Law Of One: -- -- -- --
BreakUrHeart: -- -- -- --
Racer_ X: -- -- -- --
Jake_Camp: Ah Ad Kc 3h
moeBme: -- -- -- --
hemiking57: -- -- -- --

Pre-flop:

Racer_ X folds. Jake_Camp raises to $.85. moeBme
folds. hemiking57 calls. Law Of One folds.
BreakUrHeart calls.

Flop (board: Ks Qh 9h):

BreakUrHeart checks. Jake_Camp checks. hemiking57
checks.

Turn (board: Ks Qh 9h 8h):

BreakUrHeart checks. Jake_Camp bets $2. hemiking57
folds. BreakUrHeart raises to $8.65. Jake_Camp
re-raises to $28.60. BreakUrHeart goes all-in for
$38.80. Jake_Camp goes all-in for $37.15.
BreakUrHeart is returned $1.65 (uncalled).

River (board: Ks Qh 9h 8h 8s):

(no action in this round)




Showdown:

BreakUrHeart shows Jh 4h 9d Th.
BreakUrHeart has Jh Th Qh 9h 8h: straight flush, queen high.
Jake_Camp shows Ah Ad Kc 3h.
Jake_Camp has Ah 3h Qh 9h 8h: flush, ace high.


Hand #37040414-95867 Summary:

$3 is raked from a pot of $76.95.
BreakUrHeart wins $73.95 with straight flush, queen high.

Re: Nutflush vs. Straightflush, can I fold here ever? $25PLO
 

No, to get away from these you need deeper stacks

Re: Nutflush vs. Straightflush, can I fold here ever? $25PLO
 

[ QUOTE ]
No, to get away from these you need deeper stacks

[/ QUOTE ]

waaaay deeper

Re: Nutflush vs. Straightflush, can I fold here ever? $25PLO
 

Deeper than you will ever have.

Re: Nutflush vs. Straightflush, can I fold here ever? $25PLO
 

What if this action occurred on a hypothetical brick river? That is, somehow the turn got checked around and hero ends up on the river with an A hi flush in a 10 BB pot. What could a c/r'ing villain have other than a straight flush?

Re: Nutflush vs. Straightflush, can I fold here ever? $25PLO
 

[ QUOTE ]
What if this action occurred on a hypothetical brick river? That is, somehow the turn got checked around and hero ends up on the river with an A hi flush in a 10 BB pot. What could a c/r'ing villain have other than a straight flush?

[/ QUOTE ]

I think it can definitely be right to fold a nut flush against a probable straight flush, especially on the river, and even without insanely deep stacks. But this is going to come up sooo infrequently that it doesn't really matter, and the people who (incorrectly) vow never to do so aren't losing much.

Re: Nutflush vs. Straightflush, can I fold here ever? $25PLO
 

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Deeper than you will ever have.

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disagree, assuming you have a read that your opponent plays competently.

pot 5 BB, same board. you lead for half the pot, quite a normal bet size with the nut flush. he min-raises, also a normal action with the mortal nuts. now you pot it back to him, and he re-pots. this requires only 65 BB stacks and i can't see how calling is correct against a good player.

Re: Nutflush vs. Straightflush, can I fold here ever? $25PLO
 

I agree with what pete said in that its such a rare situation it hardly matters, but to futher your example crockpot, if your opponent is intelligent and knows you view him as "plays compently", your tight and make big laydowns ie nutflush with only 1 straight flush possible, isn't this an insanely good spot to bluff with any of the straight flush hearts, or really any 4 considering that your going to have a straight flush like never?
This isn't something that i've really seen, but thats not to say there are opponents and situations where it wouldn't be a profitable play. Little OT from this thread but something worth thinking about.

Re: Nutflush vs. Straightflush, can I fold here ever? $25PLO
 

[ QUOTE ]
I agree with what pete said in that its such a rare situation it hardly matters, but to futher your example crockpot, if your opponent is intelligent and knows you view him as "plays compently", your tight and make big laydowns ie nutflush with only 1 straight flush possible, isn't this an insanely good spot to bluff with any of the straight flush hearts, or really any 4 considering that your going to have a straight flush like never?
This isn't something that i've really seen, but thats not to say there are opponents and situations where it wouldn't be a profitable play. Little OT from this thread but something worth thinking about.

[/ QUOTE ]
No. If your opponent is a huge nit and he thinks you are also a huge nit then you should bluff him a lot, but this is still pretty much the worst possible spot to pick to bluff.

Re: Nutflush vs. Straightflush, can I fold here ever? $25PLO
 

How about this variation on the theme:

Let's say the hand goes to the river relatively quietly because the players are fairly deep and the straight flush guy doesn't raise. Hero with the nut flush leads on the river and striaght flush villain raises.

Under what circumstances would you consider simply calling?

Re: Nutflush vs. Straightflush, can I fold here ever? $25PLO
 

almost all... b/c if he's not completely retarded, he's not paying off your 3-bet unless he has you beat...

Re: Nutflush vs. Straightflush, can I fold here ever? $25PLO
 

[ QUOTE ]
How about this variation on the theme:

Let's say the hand goes to the river relatively quietly because the players are fairly deep and the straight flush guy doesn't raise. Hero with the nut flush leads on the river and striaght flush villain raises.

Under what circumstances would you consider simply calling?

[/ QUOTE ]

Just calling would be pretty "standard" here. The better question is under what circumstances would you consider folding.

Re: Nutflush vs. Straightflush, can I fold here ever? $25PLO
 

I folded a nut flush on a non-paired board once. The guy played it like a retard but still got paid off by the 2nd nut flush. The flop comes 579 all clubs, I've got A4 of clubs, the flop is checked round, I bet the turn and am called in two places, I bet the river 2nd to speak out of 3 and got checkraised. Dumped it immediately, couldn't believe it when I saw the guy behind me call the checkraise. The sick thing was, we were all 300+ BB deep and if he bets flop or turn he gets soooooooo much more value.

Re: Nutflush vs. Straightflush, can I fold here ever? $25PLO
 

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[ QUOTE ]
Deeper than you will ever have.

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disagree, assuming you have a read that your opponent plays competently.

pot 5 BB, same board. you lead for half the pot, quite a normal bet size with the nut flush. he min-raises, also a normal action with the mortal nuts. now you pot it back to him, and he re-pots. this requires only 65 BB stacks and i can't see how calling is correct against a good player.

[/ QUOTE ]

I was being deliberately vague/annoyed, my apologies. My point is, if you have to ask about folding the NF against a SF with like what, <175 BB? At quarter stakes? You aren't likely to ever be playing deep enough and/or solid enough opponents to ever do this.

Re: Nutflush vs. Straightflush, can I fold here ever? $25PLO
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Deeper than you will ever have.

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disagree, assuming you have a read that your opponent plays competently.

pot 5 BB, same board. you lead for half the pot, quite a normal bet size with the nut flush. he min-raises, also a normal action with the mortal nuts. now you pot it back to him, and he re-pots. this requires only 65 BB stacks and i can't see how calling is correct against a good player.

[/ QUOTE ]

I was being deliberately vague/annoyed, my apologies. My point is, if you have to ask about folding the NF against a SF with like what, <175 BB? At quarter stakes? You aren't likely to ever be playing deep enough and/or solid enough opponents to ever do this.

[/ QUOTE ]

A lot of low-stakes players would be prime candidates to consider folding against because they're so passive and predictable.

Re: Nutflush vs. Straightflush, can I fold here ever? $25PLO
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
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Deeper than you will ever have.

[/ QUOTE ]

disagree, assuming you have a read that your opponent plays competently.

pot 5 BB, same board. you lead for half the pot, quite a normal bet size with the nut flush. he min-raises, also a normal action with the mortal nuts. now you pot it back to him, and he re-pots. this requires only 65 BB stacks and i can't see how calling is correct against a good player.

[/ QUOTE ]

I was being deliberately vague/annoyed, my apologies. My point is, if you have to ask about folding the NF against a SF with like what, <175 BB? At quarter stakes? You aren't likely to ever be playing deep enough and/or solid enough opponents to ever do this.

[/ QUOTE ]

It really depends. If he's called you down and decided to raise you on river without board pairing... I'd seriously consider folding against solid players.

Re: Nutflush vs. Straightflush, can I fold here ever? $25PLO
 

embarassing but true, this one time, I was really tired and tilted (after losing a 400bb pot with top set and NFD to runners for a straight) - and I misread the board and thought I had the nut flush..

I had AsKcxsxc, board Ad 10c 2c 6c 7s

and for whatever reason I was sure the Ac was on the board! I never actually doublechecked, so that was another 100BB I lost..

The point is, you're not _always_ up against the nut just because you get action [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

Also at PLO25 I'v seen some really massive pots on monochrome flops when I had the A of that suit and a SF isn't possible.. And it turns out they have something like 7 resp Q high flushes without redraws.

Re: Nutflush vs. Straightflush, can I fold here ever? $25PLO
 

[ QUOTE ]
embarassing but true, this one time, I was really tired and tilted (after losing a 400bb pot with top set and NFD to runners for a straight) - and I misread the board and thought I had the nut flush..

I had AsKcxsxc, board Ad 10c 2c 6c 7s

and for whatever reason I was sure the Ac was on the board! I never actually doublechecked, so that was another 100BB I lost..

The point is, you're not _always_ up against the nut just because you get action [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

Also at PLO25 I'v seen some really massive pots on monochrome flops when I had the A of that suit and a SF isn't possible.. And it turns out they have something like 7 resp Q high flushes without redraws.

[/ QUOTE ]

You don't have to *always* be against the nut to make folding right.

Re: Nutflush vs. Straightflush, can I fold here ever? $25PLO
 

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You don't have to *always* be against the nut to make folding right.

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No, but unless he always has the nut folding isnt always the right thing to do

Re: Nutflush vs. Straightflush, can I fold here ever? $25PLO
 

i d never be able to fold this in my life since i m just too bad . think i m learning nevertheless. first time i ran into a str8 flush, i had flopped quads so the loss of a full buy-in was sort of mandatory [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]. some days later i flopped the nut flush, bet it all the way down to find myself raised on the river. and i - JUST CALLED with no reads on that player at all. hard to describe how good not going broke on that sort of cold deck felt. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Re: Nutflush vs. Straightflush, can I fold here ever? $25PLO
 

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A lot of low-stakes players would be prime candidates to consider folding against because they're so passive and predictable.

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I'm not sure if we're still talking about the ace high vs straight flush thing. But some low stakes players play King high or really any flush as if it were the nuts. So if your PLO$25 opponent shows any proclivity for not really understanding the game very well, you might as well raise with Ace high flush if a str8 flush is possible. And I don't hesitate for a second just calling with a king or queen high flush...that's a definite money maker at this level against that type of player.

Also, the naked ace bluff thing, never try that at this level or in any PLO tourney.

Re: Nutflush vs. Straightflush, can I fold here ever? $25PLO
 

[ QUOTE ]
i d never be able to fold this in my life since i m just too bad . think i m learning nevertheless. first time i ran into a str8 flush, i had flopped quads so the loss of a full buy-in was sort of mandatory [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]. some days later i flopped the nut flush, bet it all the way down to find myself raised on the river. and i - JUST CALLED with no reads on that player at all. hard to describe how good not going broke on that sort of cold deck felt. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

I rivered quad Ks once on a Ks Qd 9d 2c Kd board. I made a mini raise on a pot bet.... my face went blank when I got reraised all in. I paid the guy off.

Re: Nutflush vs. Straightflush, can I fold here ever? $25PLO
 

[ QUOTE ]
Also, the naked ace bluff thing, never try that at this level or in any PLO tourney.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't agree with this so much (at least for PLO25, I basically agree in tourneys, mostly because of the short-stack problem).

The problem at PLO 25 is that if they call your first barrel, there is a very high chance that they will call you down. First barrel works well enough though. Also, it works better when you lead. Without some knowledge about your villain a raise probably isn't worth the price you're paying (betting 4 to win 2 rather than 1 to win 1) because quite often if they're willing to lead then they're willing to call you down, especially on the river.

Re: Nutflush vs. Straightflush, can I fold here ever? $25PLO
 

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You don't have to *always* be against the nut to make folding right.

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No, but unless he always has the nut folding isnt always the right thing to do

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What? If my opponent is 90% likely to have the stones, then folding for a pot-sized bet on the river is the right thing to do, every single time.

Re: Nutflush vs. Straightflush, can I fold here ever? $25PLO
 

at 25 plo it would be insane, i see some of the garbage pushing in 2-4 and can only imagine what its like at .10-.25

Re: Nutflush vs. Straightflush, can I fold here ever? $25PLO
 

[ QUOTE ]

I don't agree with this so much (at least for PLO25, I basically agree in tourneys, mostly because of the short-stack problem).

The problem at PLO 25 is that if they call your first barrel, there is a very high chance that they will call you down. First barrel works well enough though. Also, it works better when you lead.

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Of course it is going to be impossible for us to know how often you rep a naked ace and the person folds a made king flush vs lesser made flushes and vs times when they have no flush at all. So it's pretty much pointless (I think) to discuss it in this way.

What I do know is that when I used to push naked aces all the way, I got called a lot. And it seems that a 1st raise with naked ace gets reraised a lot.

I also know that, in my mind at least, I make more money with King high flushes* pushed all in vs naked ace more than I pay off a full ace high flush. I don't know PT well enough to calculate this though, if someone pointed me in the right direction I'd be more than happy.

*I think any game where people will play any flush hard, the naked ace flush value decreases.

Re: Nutflush vs. Straightflush, can I fold here ever? $25PLO
 

All,

Thanks for responses thus far.

To those saying this is an easy call versus an unknown at smaller limits, at what point of "known-ness" does it become perhaps debateable? If, for instance, I've seen villain on one occasion just call down (instead of raising) with the second nut boat, does this shift things enough to consider a fold? What if I've frequently seen villain play pots for pot-control with less than the nuts, and never suspected him of bluffing? FWIW, these types of players seem way more common at $25PLO on the site I play at, rather than the loose, 9-high-flush-felting type some of you seem to see. Most of the players I'm seeing here are totally passive with all but the nuts, and are missing value left and right because of it. I would say my profit comes mainly from hammering them in the same spots where they let me off cheap, but that's for another thread.

*Edit* Also, these types of players are PRIME targets for the naked A bluff. Just have to hope the spades they have aren't giving them an oesfd on top of the weak flush lol. As long as that's the case, they fold QUICK (often showing).

Re: Nutflush vs. Straightflush, can I fold here ever? $25PLO
 

[ QUOTE ]
Of course it is going to be impossible for us to know how often you rep a naked ace and the person folds a made king flush vs lesser made flushes and vs times when they have no flush at all. So it's pretty much pointless (I think) to discuss it in this way.

[/ QUOTE ]

Getting the K flush or other good flushes to fold isn't the only point of betting the naked A. Odds are that someone in say a 4 way pot will usually have you beat in some other way. If they fold to you more than half the time to a pot bet, that's enough to justify it.

[ QUOTE ]
What I do know is that when I used to push naked aces all the way, I got called a lot. And it seems that a 1st raise with naked ace gets reraised a lot.

[/ QUOTE ]

Guess it depends on other factors too, but I get called way less than half the time at these stakes (at least under the circumstances when I choose to use this play). The re-raise is pretty rare in my experience. I will admit, by the way, that this bluff works best at these stakes when you were not a pre-flop raiser.

The "all the way" issue is part of the problem, thus my relative unwillingness to fire second barrel against unknowns.

Re: Nutflush vs. Straightflush, can I fold here ever? $25PLO
 

How can you be 90% sure he has a straightflush? At $25PLO i'd say its more likely he has a lower flush than a straightflush.. Besides, it was the turn, he could easily have a lower flush with a set or two pair.

Re: Nutflush vs. Straightflush, can I fold here ever? $25PLO
 

[ QUOTE ]
How can you be 90% sure he has a straightflush? At $25PLO i'd say its more likely he has a lower flush than a straightflush.. Besides, it was the turn, he could easily have a lower flush with a set or two pair.

[/ QUOTE ]

I didn't give any opinion about this hand.

Re: Nutflush vs. Straightflush, can I fold here ever? $25PLO
 

For anything less than a sum that would pretty much wipe you out (25% of BR or some [censored]) this is a very hard fold.

Re: Nutflush vs. Straightflush, can I fold here ever? $25PLO
 

The thing about this hand is that your read that they are all bad is a lousy read, cause Villain (BreakURHeart) in this hand is actually a very solid regular. In fact, I've almost never seen him get his $$ in bad. If this is ever a fold, its against this opponent.

Re: Nutflush vs. Straightflush, can I fold here ever? $25PLO
 

you are worried about losing with the nut flush for $38? shoot me

Re: Nutflush vs. Straightflush, can I fold here ever? $25PLO
 

You need much deeper stacks to be able to get away from this..

Re: Nutflush vs. Straightflush, can I fold here ever? $25PLO
 

[ QUOTE ]
You need much deeper stacks to be able to get away from this..

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: Nutflush vs. Straightflush, can I fold here ever? $25PLO
 

Let's continue bumping this 3month old thread to say the same thing the first 20 people already said!

Yay for post counts!

Re: Nutflush vs. Straightflush, can I fold here ever? $25PLO
 

Party Poker
Pot Limit Omaha Ring game
Blinds: $1/$2
10 players
Converter

Stack sizes:
UTG: $415.95
UTG+1: $198.15
UTG+2: $211.50
TheRempel: $205.60
MP2: $95
MP3: $202
CO: $61.90
Button: $262.15
SB: $250.15
BB: $213.90

Pre-flop: (10 players) TheRempel is MP1 with 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]
3 folds, TheRempel calls, 4 folds, SB calls, BB checks.

Flop: Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] ($6, 3 players)
SB checks, BB checks, TheRempel checks.

Turn: 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] ($6, 3 players)
SB checks, <font color="#cc0000">BB bets $5.70</font>, <font color="#cc0000">TheRempel raises to $22.80</font>, SB folds, BB calls.

River: K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] ($6, 2 players)
BB checks, <font color="#cc0000">TheRempel bets $49.05</font>, <font color="#cc0000">BB raises all-in $209.9</font>, TheRempel folds.
Uncalled bets: $209.9 returned to BB.

Results:
Final pot: $286.75

Pretty standard fold considering this guy's river aggro is 0.05. If'd I had bet the flop the hand may have played out a bit differently but I'd likely still fold the river.

Re: Nutflush vs. Straightflush, can I fold here ever? $25PLO
 

[ QUOTE ]

Also, the naked ace bluff thing, never try that at this level or in any PLO tourney.

[/ QUOTE ]

QFT I should have read this thread last night lol. Just started playing PLO and last night I had AcAx and the flop was 3 clubs. I check he 1/2 pots I full pot bluff and he re-raises all in and shows Q7c after I fold.

Re: Nutflush vs. Straightflush, can I fold here ever? $25PLO
 

FTP?

I have had 2 nut flushes busted by straight flushes in the last 24 hours.

Oh so curious, FTP.

Re: Nutflush vs. Straightflush, can I fold here ever? $25PLO
 

[ QUOTE ]
Let's continue bumping this 3month old thread to say the same thing the first 20 people already said!

Yay for post counts!

[/ QUOTE ]

Bump!