help me become a better arguer/negotiater
 

I've come to realize that I am really bad at this and often end up with the short end of the stick. I've seen OOT advice for bargaining before but things like "be firm" I don't really know what exactly that means.

Re: help me become a better arguer/negotiater
 

http://www.authenticsportscollectibl...ts000000-M.JPG


I like these.


I consider arguing, and negotiating as seperate things, and require different tactics, you have any examples of your failure to argue/negotiate? ie in what circumstances are you in?

Re: help me become a better arguer/negotiater
 

[ QUOTE ]
I consider arguing, and negotiating as seperate things, and require different tactics

[/ QUOTE ]

Good point. Arguing is more about being right, with little regard for gaining favor. Negotiating is more about getting your way - you don't have to be right, and a certain amount of tact needs to be in place.

Re: help me become a better arguer/negotiater
 

I always go in saying "be tough, don't cave" then get uncomfortable and lose. Most common example of this is selling tickets to sporting events.

Re: help me become a better arguer/negotiater
 

Who are you arguing with? Friends, be a complete and utter [censored], it don't matter and they'll get over it. Your girl, just stand there and pretend to listen, because if you don't then it'll probably end badly.

Re: help me become a better arguer/negotiater
 

(1) Always make the other person name the first number
(2) Have a walking-away price in your mind well before you start the negotiations
(3) Focus on perceived value, not just cost when selling an item
(4) Don't sell yourself out too cheap. People -will- pay for a service they find to be the best.

I'd recommend checking out Doug Hall's 'Jump Start your Business Brain' for ideas on common business mistakes and myths.

Re: help me become a better arguer/negotiater
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I consider arguing, and negotiating as seperate things, and require different tactics

[/ QUOTE ]

Good point. Arguing is more about being right, with little regard for gaining favor. Negotiating is more about getting your way - you don't have to be right, and a certain amount of tact needs to be in place.

[/ QUOTE ]


Yes, exactly, if Im in an argument about something, and I know Im right, Ill use sources to back me up. Negoitiating, ie, a business deal or whatever, is about getting what you want, and letting the other person think they did too.

Re: help me become a better arguer/negotiater
 

The best negotiating tactic is to pretend like you're caving when you are really getting what you want.

Lame basic example:

You want 3, he wants 1.

Him: I want 1.

You: I want 10.

Him: That's crazy I can't go higher than 2.

You: Well I can't go lower than 8.

Him: Thats crazy

You: Well maybe we can compromise.

Him: How?

You: Well I want 10, you want 1, what about 5?

Him: No way, 3 is all i can offer.

You: Well, I really think 5 is reasonable middle ground.

Him: Well I can't get to 5

You: Whats the best you can do?

Him: 3.5 is the absolute limit

You: Well I wasn't supposed to go below 5, what do you think about 4.5

Him: can't do it

You: hmmmm

Him: 4 is all i can do, final offer, take it or leave it

You: you drive a hard bargain, lemme think about it.....alright, guess you got me.

You=winnah

Re: help me become a better arguer/negotiater
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I consider arguing, and negotiating as seperate things, and require different tactics

[/ QUOTE ]

Good point. Arguing is more about being right, with little regard for gaining favor. Negotiating is more about getting your way - you don't have to be right, and a certain amount of tact needs to be in place.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is a good distinction for me. In arguement, I either win or tie, I am rarely convinced the other person is right. In negotiating, I tend to believe I am right but end up going along with the other person.

Re: help me become a better arguer/negotiater
 

I took a class on negotiations last semester. It was really interesting. The book we used was called "The mind and heart of the negotiator" Some of it was pretty common sense but you could still probably learn a lot from reading it.

Re: help me become a better arguer/negotiater
 

[ QUOTE ]
I've come to realize that I am really bad at this and often end up with the short end of the stick. I've seen OOT advice for bargaining before but things like "be firm" I don't really know what exactly that means.

[/ QUOTE ]


No your not your great at arguing forget about all this stuff, you get exactly what you deserve and more all the time.

Re: help me become a better arguer/negotiater
 

[ QUOTE ]
(1) Always make the other person name the first number
(2) Have a walking-away price in your mind well before you start the negotiations
(3) Focus on perceived value, not just cost when selling an item
(4) Don't sell yourself out too cheap. People -will- pay for a service they find to be the best.

I'd recommend checking out Doug Hall's 'Jump Start your Business Brain' for ideas on common business mistakes and myths.

[/ QUOTE ]

I was taught that number 1 is basically a myth and as long as you have a good grasp of your alternatives and such, you should be the one to name the first number as an anchoring point.

Re: help me become a better arguer/negotiater
 

[ QUOTE ]
(1) Always make the other person name the first number
(2) Have a walking-away price in your mind well before you start the negotiations
(3) Focus on perceived value, not just cost when selling an item
(4) Don't sell yourself out too cheap. People -will- pay for a service they find to be the best.

I'd recommend checking out Doug Hall's 'Jump Start your Business Brain' for ideas on common business mistakes and myths.

[/ QUOTE ]

This first one is a good example of common advice that doesn't do much for me. I'll set what I believe to be fair price for something.

Me: I see your offering that for $x dollars. Thats a little more than I want to pay for that. Can you make it $x minus 10 bucks.
Him: Sorry. Thats what I'm selling it at.
Me: ya ok. later.

Then I go home and cry myself to sleep.

Re: help me become a better arguer/negotiater
 

Well, imo, arguing is pretty black and white, and the eprson who is right can usualyl demonstrate so within a couple minutes, and when it does happen to enter a gray area, it then just becomes an exercise of futility, or in other words its pointless to argue, so I dont. Negotiating is a whole different beast, you have to change your persona, to get what you want, and how you change depends on who you are dealing with. I have a great book, I cant remember the exact name, but it basically takes the Art of War and dumbs it down/explains some fo the verses etc, also Machiavelli, but not the prince, read Discourses on Livy.

Re: help me become a better arguer/negotiater
 

Heh. That's goes well with your saying you start at a fair price. I think you have to know your audience. Many people expect a haggle, and probably even know what a fair price is. If you come in right away with a fair price, with this type, they'll figure that's more than you really need to get to an agreement with them. They will be dead set against giving you that "fair price," assuming it's not fair at all, but just a starting point for negotiations, rather than an end point. Kind of a probe.

Re: help me become a better arguer/negotiater
 

This brings up an interesting question. Why is the sporting-event on-site ticket market monopolized by black people?

Re: help me become a better arguer/negotiater
 

Surprisingly enough, The Poker MBA is a good book about negotiating and business concepts in general. I recommend it.

Re: help me become a better arguer/negotiater
 

[ QUOTE ]
This brings up an interesting question. Why is the sporting-event on-site ticket market monopolized by black people?

[/ QUOTE ]

It isn't, really. I know a lot of white people in Seattle that specialize in selling last-minute Mariners' tickets.

Re: help me become a better arguer/negotiater
 

[ QUOTE ]
Arguing is more about being right,

[/ QUOTE ]

No, expert arguing is about making the other guy wrong.

Scott

Re: help me become a better arguer/negotiater
 

Watch Thank You For Smoking. There's a pretty sweet scene where the main character teaches his son how to debate.

Re: help me become a better arguer/negotiater
 

[ QUOTE ]
Watch Thank You For Smoking. There's a pretty sweet scene where the main character teaches his son how to debate.

[/ QUOTE ]

Agreed the key to winning an arguement is about making the arguement about something you know you can win, not about the actual issue... think about how chicks argue sometime.

Re: help me become a better arguer/negotiater
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Watch Thank You For Smoking. There's a pretty sweet scene where the main character teaches his son how to debate.

[/ QUOTE ]

Agreed the key to winning an arguement is about making the arguement about something you know you can win, not about the actual issue... think about how chicks argue sometime.

[/ QUOTE ]


Im not understanding this? what do you mean, just argue the things you know you are right about? Chicks when tehy argue, usualyl make no sense, so Im a little confused.

Re: help me become a better arguer/negotiater
 

If you want to be a great negotiator, just observe the old Pakistani ladies that work at Dunkin Donuts. Here is what usually happens when I go to DD:

Me: Hi, I'd like 3 donuts

Pakistani lady: CHEAPER BUY 6

Me: it's cheaper to buy 6 than 3?

PL: YES!!!

me: but if I add up the price of 3 individual donuts, it's less than the price for a half dozen.

PL: CHEAPER BUY 6

me: no

PL: OK WHAT KIND DONUT

me: a boston creme, a lemon filled, and a french crawler

PL: OK

me: oh man, those double chocolates look so yummy..... ah [censored] it I'll get a half dozen, gimme a double chocolate, a strawberry jelly, and a chocolate long john

PL: THANK YOU COME AGAIN

Re: help me become a better arguer/negotiater
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Watch Thank You For Smoking. There's a pretty sweet scene where the main character teaches his son how to debate.

[/ QUOTE ]

Agreed the key to winning an arguement is about making the arguement about something you know you can win, not about the actual issue... think about how chicks argue sometime.

[/ QUOTE ]


Im not understanding this? what do you mean, just argue the things you know you are right about? Chicks when tehy argue, usualyl make no sense, so Im a little confused.

[/ QUOTE ]
The basic idea of the scene is the main character is eating ice cream with his son and they're talking about what's better, chocolate or vanilla. The kid likes chocolate and the dad decides to teach him how to debate. The kid starts and proclaims his love for chocolate saying something like "chocolate is all i need!" The dad then takes a more moderate road saying that he believes people need variety blah blah blah. In short, he argues against chocolate being all people need rather than arguing for vanilla being the best. If you prove the other person wrong you can win by default.

Similar to political campaigning. Regardless of your stance on things, in a 2 candidate race, whoever can get closer to the middle in the voters minds will win.

Re: help me become a better arguer/negotiater
 

I'm not very vociferous IRL, but I think it has helped me in negotiations. In my family, my dad and older brother are both salesman who enjoy talking. I've noticed that they are better Sellers, than they are Buyers, whereas I am a better Buyer than Seller.

Case in point: I was going to buy a new car a few years back and I had my dad drop me off at the dealership (during a 2-3 week sales process). I'm in there talking to teh salesman and he gives me this finance rate that I don't like. I say I don't like it (it was like 6%, and my bank would get me 5.19%, but I knew I should be able to get even better). My dad pipes in with "Can't you get 5.19% at our bank?" Car salesman: "You want 5.19%? I can do that! Let's do it!" Starts grabbing papers all excited...
I'm like "No, I need better than that" and we get up and leave. I tore into my pops a bit for letting out information. He is used to being the one talking and throwing out the numbers, whereas when you are buying, the less the salesman knows, the better.

I ended up getting 4.95% at another dealership.

Re: help me become a better arguer/negotiater
 

[ QUOTE ]
The best negotiating tactic is to pretend like you're caving when you are really getting what you want.

Lame basic example:

You want 3, he wants 1.

Him: I want 1.

You: I want 10.

Him: That's crazy I can't go higher than 2.

You: Well I can't go lower than 8.

Him: Thats crazy

You: Well maybe we can compromise.

Him: How?

You: Well I want 10, you want 1, what about 5?

Him: No way, 3 is all i can offer.

You: Well, I really think 5 is reasonable middle ground.

Him: Well I can't get to 5

You: Whats the best you can do?

Him: 3.5 is the absolute limit

You: Well I wasn't supposed to go below 5, what do you think about 4.5

Him: can't do it

You: hmmmm

Him: 4 is all i can do, final offer, take it or leave it

You: you drive a hard bargain, lemme think about it.....alright, guess you got me.

You=winnah

[/ QUOTE ]

If you=you and I=him in this lame basic example, I would have stopped negotiating with you after you said you wanted 10.

Re: help me become a better arguer/negotiater
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The best negotiating tactic is to pretend like you're caving when you are really getting what you want.

Lame basic example:

You want 3, he wants 1.

Him: I want 1.

You: I want 10.

Him: That's crazy I can't go higher than 2.

You: Well I can't go lower than 8.

Him: Thats crazy

You: Well maybe we can compromise.

Him: How?

You: Well I want 10, you want 1, what about 5?

Him: No way, 3 is all i can offer.

You: Well, I really think 5 is reasonable middle ground.

Him: Well I can't get to 5

You: Whats the best you can do?

Him: 3.5 is the absolute limit

You: Well I wasn't supposed to go below 5, what do you think about 4.5

Him: can't do it

You: hmmmm

Him: 4 is all i can do, final offer, take it or leave it

You: you drive a hard bargain, lemme think about it.....alright, guess you got me.

You=winnah

[/ QUOTE ]

If you=you and I=him in this lame basic example, I would have stopped negotiating with you after you said you wanted 10.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, this is a good example of negotiating in Africa.

Re: help me become a better arguer/negotiater
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
(1) Always make the other person name the first number


[/ QUOTE ]

I was taught that number 1 is basically a myth and as long as you have a good grasp of your alternatives and such, you should be the one to name the first number as an anchoring point.

[/ QUOTE ]

Please go into more detail on this.

Re: help me become a better arguer/negotiater
 

[ QUOTE ]
The best negotiating tactic is to pretend like you're caving when you are really getting what you want.

Lame basic example:

You want 3, he wants 1.

Him: I want 1.

You: I want 10.

Him: you're crazy! bye

[/ QUOTE ]

fyp

Re: help me become a better arguer/negotiater
 

[ QUOTE ]
The best negotiating tactic is to pretend like you're caving when you are really getting what you want.

Lame basic example:

You want 3, he wants 1.

Him: I want 1.

You: I want 10.

Him: you're crazy! bye

[/ QUOTE ]

Ya I tried this one time to. He kicked me out of his store immediately.

Re: help me become a better arguer/negotiater
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The best negotiating tactic is to pretend like you're caving when you are really getting what you want.

Lame basic example:

You want 3, he wants 1.

Him: I want 1.

You: I want 10.

Him: you're crazy! bye

[/ QUOTE ]

fyp

[/ QUOTE ]

obviously this wasn't a well thought out example. I just was trying to give a sense of the back and forth and deceit that must be used.

a lot of people approach a negotiation for a car, etc. and aren't aggressive enough. If the car is marked for $10,000. It doesn't hurt to ask for $5,000. He may call you crazy, but who cares. He may call you crazy and then say $9500, which gets the ball rolling. If you go in there and say $9000, he may very well have sold it to you for $9k, but since you weren't aggressive enough you just set the floor at $9k and he knows you'll go higher.

Re: help me become a better arguer/negotiater
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
(1) Always make the other person name the first number


[/ QUOTE ]

I was taught that number 1 is basically a myth and as long as you have a good grasp of your alternatives and such, you should be the one to name the first number as an anchoring point.

[/ QUOTE ]

Please go into more detail on this.

[/ QUOTE ]

OK, before you start negotiating, you should always know what your best alternative is, so that you have a very specific walkaway point. You can then set a target price/amount/whatever somewhere above your walkaway point. And you can make your first offer somewhere higher than that.

The reason its good to go first is because the first number that gets thrown out becomes the baseline for the rest of the negotiation. As you make concessions you can continue to point out how much you are giving up by reminding them of your initial offer.

Also, lets say there is a very wide area of possible agreement. For example, you really want 70 but would be willing to accept as low as 30, and the other guy only wants to give you 20 but could go as high as 60. If you make the first offer of like 100, he is probably think you have a walkaway point of like 50-70 and will be like wow I am going to be lucky just to get this down to 60 which is my maximimum. And he will probably counter with something like 40-50 which is already above your walkaway point of 30.

Not sure how much that example helps bc obv its all arbitrary numbers but basically making the first offer is good because people are naturally somewhat adverse to controversy and thus wont counter with an offer so low that they think it will offend you or cause you to walk away right away. And it will likely cause them to underestimate the size of the overlap between your walkaway point and theirs.

Just be careful not to make the openning offer so ridiculous that they will not take it seriously or will immediataly assume no deal will get done and walkaway.

Re: help me become a better arguer/negotiater
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Watch Thank You For Smoking. There's a pretty sweet scene where the main character teaches his son how to debate.

[/ QUOTE ]

Agreed the key to winning an arguement is about making the arguement about something you know you can win, not about the actual issue... think about how chicks argue sometime.

[/ QUOTE ]


Im not understanding this? what do you mean, just argue the things you know you are right about? Chicks when tehy argue, usualyl make no sense, so Im a little confused.

[/ QUOTE ]
The basic idea of the scene is the main character is eating ice cream with his son and they're talking about what's better, chocolate or vanilla. The kid likes chocolate and the dad decides to teach him how to debate. The kid starts and proclaims his love for chocolate saying something like "chocolate is all i need!" The dad then takes a more moderate road saying that he believes people need variety blah blah blah. In short, he argues against chocolate being all people need rather than arguing for vanilla being the best. If you prove the other person wrong you can win by default.

Similar to political campaigning. Regardless of your stance on things, in a 2 candidate race, whoever can get closer to the middle in the voters minds will win.

[/ QUOTE ]



I dont consider that winning the argument, yes, if you are running for political office, thats the best way to go. But if chocolate is my favorite flavor, it is my opinion, of what I like. I like chocolate, it is the best flavor of all ice cream, just because everyone else doesnt necassarily think its the best, doesnt mean that Im not right in saying chocolate is my fav. The kid is arguing that chocolate is all HE needs, the dad is completely changing the argument, saying its not all EVERYONE needs, he isnt arguing the topic.

Re: help me become a better arguer/negotiater
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Watch Thank You For Smoking. There's a pretty sweet scene where the main character teaches his son how to debate.

[/ QUOTE ]

Agreed the key to winning an arguement is about making the arguement about something you know you can win, not about the actual issue... think about how chicks argue sometime.

[/ QUOTE ]


Im not understanding this? what do you mean, just argue the things you know you are right about? Chicks when tehy argue, usualyl make no sense, so Im a little confused.

[/ QUOTE ]
The basic idea of the scene is the main character is eating ice cream with his son and they're talking about what's better, chocolate or vanilla. The kid likes chocolate and the dad decides to teach him how to debate. The kid starts and proclaims his love for chocolate saying something like "chocolate is all i need!" The dad then takes a more moderate road saying that he believes people need variety blah blah blah. In short, he argues against chocolate being all people need rather than arguing for vanilla being the best. If you prove the other person wrong you can win by default.

Similar to political campaigning. Regardless of your stance on things, in a 2 candidate race, whoever can get closer to the middle in the voters minds will win.

[/ QUOTE ]



I dont consider that winning the argument, yes, if you are running for political office, thats the best way to go. But if chocolate is my favorite flavor, it is my opinion, of what I like. I like chocolate, it is the best flavor of all ice cream, just because everyone else doesnt necassarily think its the best, doesnt mean that Im not right in saying chocolate is my fav. The kid is arguing that chocolate is all HE needs, the dad is completely changing the argument, saying its not all EVERYONE needs, he isnt arguing the topic.

[/ QUOTE ]

Genuine arguing is simple. Know the topic and articulate your position well while demonstrating why the other position is less than ideal.

Appearing to have won an argument is entirely different. It involves bridging the gap between your positions and getting the other debater to agree to a sort of middle ground that you present, or deflecting arguments while pulling the argument into "friendly territory" - something tangentially related to the argument at hand that you are proficient with.

Re: help me become a better arguer/negotiater
 

NLSoldier,
What you are saying is 100% congruent with what I have learned in class about psychology about baseline rates. However, the rare times I have tried that, people just look at me like I am crazy and don't want to even talk to me. Maybe because I am young? (21)

Another example is car shopping. I tried to get a bit of a deal, and threw out a number slightly less than what they were offering (was for a used car, in the range of 7-8k canadian). The guy said the prices were none negotiable, then started showing me cars for 10k.

Re: help me become a better arguer/negotiater
 

[ QUOTE ]
NLSoldier,
What you are saying is 100% congruent with what I have learned in class about psychology about baseline rates. However, the rare times I have tried that, people just look at me like I am crazy and don't want to even talk to me. Maybe because I am young? (21)

Another example is car shopping. I tried to get a bit of a deal, and threw out a number slightly less than what they were offering (was for a used car, in the range of 7-8k canadian). The guy said the prices were none negotiable, then started showing me cars for 10k.

[/ QUOTE ]



At that point you say, "I dont even want to look at the 10k cars, Im taking my business to a lot that will work with the customer better than you guys, thanks for your time though." You wont get 4 steps away before the salesman changes his tune.


Edit: Car salesman ALWAYS try to deflect the talk away from the price of the car, you bring up the price, they wont answer, but will start telling you about the service, warranties, how low the mileage is etc, what you need to do is counter with something negative on each of these points.

you: will you guys take 8k?

salesmen: well, it comes with a 2 year warranty

you: well, the last place I looked at had pretty much the same car with a 3 year warranty, so id be willing to go down to 8k


Salesman: well it only has 40k miles etc

you: ya, thats the other issue, 40k miles is a little more mileage that I wanted to look at, I was hoping to get a c ar with 10 to 20k

etc

Re: help me become a better arguer/negotiater
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Watch Thank You For Smoking. There's a pretty sweet scene where the main character teaches his son how to debate.

[/ QUOTE ]

Agreed the key to winning an arguement is about making the arguement about something you know you can win, not about the actual issue... think about how chicks argue sometime.

[/ QUOTE ]


Im not understanding this? what do you mean, just argue the things you know you are right about? Chicks when tehy argue, usualyl make no sense, so Im a little confused.

[/ QUOTE ]
The basic idea of the scene is the main character is eating ice cream with his son and they're talking about what's better, chocolate or vanilla. The kid likes chocolate and the dad decides to teach him how to debate. The kid starts and proclaims his love for chocolate saying something like "chocolate is all i need!" The dad then takes a more moderate road saying that he believes people need variety blah blah blah. In short, he argues against chocolate being all people need rather than arguing for vanilla being the best. If you prove the other person wrong you can win by default.

Similar to political campaigning. Regardless of your stance on things, in a 2 candidate race, whoever can get closer to the middle in the voters minds will win.

[/ QUOTE ]



I dont consider that winning the argument, yes, if you are running for political office, thats the best way to go. But if chocolate is my favorite flavor, it is my opinion, of what I like. I like chocolate, it is the best flavor of all ice cream, just because everyone else doesnt necassarily think its the best, doesnt mean that Im not right in saying chocolate is my fav. The kid is arguing that chocolate is all HE needs, the dad is completely changing the argument, saying its not all EVERYONE needs, he isnt arguing the topic.

[/ QUOTE ]

Just watch the movie.

Re: help me become a better arguer/negotiater
 

Regarding who makes the 1st offer, it depends on what you are negotiating. For an item/service where the value can wildly vary depending on each person's motivation, you want the other party to set the 1st price. As an example, let's say you need a DJ at the last minute for a party you are throwing tonight. You might be willing to pay $1000 because you know it's last minute and are desperate, however, the DJ might have no work that night or might be new to the business and might do the job for $250. So, by letting him set the 1st price (and knowing info about him) you could save yourself tons of cash.

The other example is where there is a fairly well defined price range, such as buying or selling a video game that retails for $50. In this case, it's better that you set the price as it establishes a baseline to begin the negotiations from.

Most importantly is knowing information about your adversary (i.e. what are their motiviations). The few minutes that you spend talking before the negotations begin are the most critical and you should gently probe for information. You will be surprsised at how much valuable info they give up. Alternatively, be careful to disclose too much info about your own situation.

Re: help me become a better arguer/negotiater
 

1) Take a class on formal logic. It will help you learn how to make an argument.

2) Pick your arguments. If you're just looking to argue to argue, then it's not worth your time. Argue for a reason.

3) In an argument with someone you really care about, don't always have to be right. Compromise goes a long way in the long run, and if you care about them, it's the long run that matters.

4) Don't argue with idiots, or people with whom you can't change their minds.

5) Research topics you will or might argue regarding. It's hard to argue ignorance against knowledge. Make sure you're on the right side.

6) Be open-minded, you might be wrong.

Re: help me become a better arguer/negotiater
 

[ QUOTE ]
6) Be open-minded, you might be wrong.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is terrible advice, and I urge you to disregard it immediately.