Is Triple Draw really worth it?
 

Reading some posts here, and my own admittedly small sample of experiences, is leading me to think that the edge a good player might have in this game, certainly from 30-60 levels and above, are not worth the massive variance. A bit like short handed holdem, but much worse. Thoughts and views?

cheers

Dave

Re: Is Triple Draw really worth it?
 

nah, ain't worth it.

Wait no. Yes it is. If you can make a better BB/100 at any game you should play it, despite variance. If your bankroll can't handle it then don't play. I play 5cd because I'm good at it. If I could make 5BB/100 at 10/20 hold em' I'd do it instead. Also, some people like being really good at one thing, or find it more fun. This special feeling may be worth the variance.

That's just MO

Re: Is Triple Draw really worth it?
 

playing 300-600 with people who dont know the rules is definitely +ev

Re: Is Triple Draw really worth it?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Reading some posts here, and my own admittedly small sample of experiences, is leading me to think that the edge a good player might have in this game, certainly from 30-60 levels and above, are not worth the massive variance. A bit like short handed holdem, but much worse. Thoughts and views?

cheers

Dave

[/ QUOTE ]

The variance is huge. No, it is not worth it. There are other games that have less variance and more bad players. There is a good reason why Triple Draw Lowball has not taken the poker world by storm and variance is it. As Joey Hawthorne/Doyle Brunson wrote in SSI: 'lowball is a disease not a game' or words to that poetic effect. The same is true of Triple Draw Lowball.

Re: Is Triple Draw really worth it?
 

If you want to play in mix games with awful players for high stakes, you have to know how to play a draw game or two. TDL is fun, high variance, mega gambool, but fun, reason enough for me.

-DeathDonkey

Re: Is Triple Draw really worth it?
 

...and don't forget how well TDL will refine skills you'll use in every game.

--Nate

Re: Is Triple Draw really worth it?
 

why not learn badugi?

Re: Is Triple Draw really worth it?
 

Action players are attracted to games with high variance. If you want to play with them, you have to play the action games. BTW, you haven't said anything about TD that wasn't once said about PLO.

Most of the posts here are about limit thiple draw. Think how much fun (and variance) you will have when the action dries up in limit and moves to pot limit, the way God meant triple draw to be played. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] They're not going to mail you the money, you have to get in there and mix it up.

Re: Is Triple Draw really worth it?
 

[ QUOTE ]
If you want to play in mix games with awful players for high stakes, you have to know how to play a draw game or two. TDL is fun, high variance, mega gambool, but fun, reason enough for me.

-DeathDonkey

[/ QUOTE ]

And TD / Badugi puts players on mega-tilt, which is great for when you switch away from TD. They are now must-adds to any mix game.

TT [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

Re: Is Triple Draw really worth it?
 

So far, the most compelling reason for playing the game seems to be that its fun. Which I agree that it is. But I unfortunately stopped playing poker for fun a long time ago. I can also understand and agree with the meta game reasons for mixed games, but this doesnt really work online. Doesn't seem a great idea to focus on it online so far [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

As to comparisons with PLO, well I would disagree. Sure PLO has variance, but it also has high win rates. And if triple draw becomes a PLO game I'm sure it will become the same, just as Badugi was when it was played PL before crossing the Atlantic.

cheers

Dave

Re: Is Triple Draw really worth it?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Sure PLO has variance, but it also has high win rates.

[/ QUOTE ]

And TD definitely doesn't. Nope. All variance. By no means should anyone try to play 2-7 TD for the profit. Y'all go play holdem.

Re: Is Triple Draw really worth it?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Sure PLO has variance, but it also has high win rates.

[/ QUOTE ]

And TD definitely doesn't. Nope. All variance. By no means should anyone try to play 2-7 TD for the profit. Y'all go play holdem.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ok

Re: Is Triple Draw really worth it?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Sure PLO has variance, but it also has high win rates.

[/ QUOTE ]

And TD definitely doesn't. Nope. All variance. By no means should anyone try to play 2-7 TD for the profit. Y'all go play holdem.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sarcasm is hardly argument.

Moreover, Triple Draw Lowball games are full of specialists though there are fish in the mix as well but not nearly as many fish as to be found in Hold'em.

Your Hand Gets Worse!
 

[ QUOTE ]
Reading some posts here, and my own admittedly small sample of experiences, is leading me to think that the edge a good player might have in this game, certainly from 30-60 levels and above, are not worth the massive variance. A bit like short handed holdem, but much worse. Thoughts and views?

cheers

Dave

[/ QUOTE ]

Unmentioned so far is the lowball fact that hands get worse. Yep. This adds to the natural variance found in all poker games. In Hold'em, your pocket rockets may turn into losers on the flop but but they have worsened relatively in relation to the other players' hands. In TDL, your hand worsens absolutely, so not only do your opponents improve but your 7532x becomes 77532. Another TDL fact: it is a form of 'closed' poker so hands are not easy to read this makes it good for bluffing and also means hand reading is of less value both of these consequences add to your variance as well.

I win at Hold'em and at Seven Stud, had mixed experiences at Draw, same with Five Stud, I stink at Pot Limit Omaha, I play TDL reasonably well but I do not think their are all that many good games about and the variance is enough to put me off anyway.

Re: Is Triple Draw really worth it?
 

[ QUOTE ]

Sarcasm is hardly argument.


[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not arguing. I'm agreeing vehemently.

Re: Is Triple Draw really worth it?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Sure PLO has variance, but it also has high win rates.

[/ QUOTE ]

And TD definitely doesn't. Nope. All variance. By no means should anyone try to play 2-7 TD for the profit. Y'all go play holdem.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sarcasm is hardly argument.

Moreover, Triple Draw Lowball games are full of specialists though there are fish in the mix as well but not nearly as many fish as to be found in Hold'em.

[/ QUOTE ]

The problem with the fish is that they have one compelling strategy that hurts the expert player - staying pat with very weak hands with the commitment to see it to the river. Of course this very same strategy also helps the expert player for example when he is pat with a clean 8 and the fishy player calls to the river with JT267 just to keep you honest, but more often it helps the fishy player than the expert because the fishy player can stay pat with any hand at any time forcing the hero to redefine his range of acceptable hands on the river.

Don't get me wrong, I am not complaining at all - but its important to note that Triple Draw allows fishy players to equalize the field rather easily compared to most other games.

TT [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

Re: Is Triple Draw really worth it?
 

TT,

If you are winning at a table of solids+fish, then does alot of your profit come from the decent players too? I mean, does the best player make the decent players make mistakes, that fish just cant be made to do?

Or fish just find their ways to spew and you all mop it up? [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

Re: Is Triple Draw really worth it?
 

Several reasons to play TD
1) Sometimes I don't find fish playing in my regular games, but there is one playing TD
2) sometimes i'm frustrated/tilted w my regular games and want to play poker and make money but with with some variety or less stress
3) it brings alive and helps you understand elements of poker. much like PLO brings home power of position, TD brings alive how to play river (3rd draw)
4) i think it can be nicely profitable, but its hard to say since the variance is so large it obscures figuring out a winrate
5) its fun. master something new and maybe you'll enjoy poker more
-g

Re: Is Triple Draw really worth it?
 

The general problem is that any poker game where decision outcomes, regardless of how they are derived, are the same for both expert and fish is going to be one with a lower win rate. And it seems to me that there are a *lot* of scenarios where this is the case in Triple Draw.

gl

dd

Re: Is Triple Draw really worth it?
 

"As Joey Hawthorne/Doyle Brunson wrote in SSI: 'lowball is a disease not a game' or words to that poetic effect. The same is true of Triple Draw Lowball"

That is such a great quote. There is without a doubt a certain masochism involved in playing duece. And this pain is something that I'm experiencing right now after my 50 bet loss yesterday and bad running right now- even in the low stakes games on stars which are so much better than I ever saw on UB.

Yes, the variance is high and yes a lot of the decisions are automatic. One part of the problem (if it could be called a problem) is that in order to increase your edge you also increase variance through playing the turn aggresively and liberal value-betting on the river. But all it takes is one bad player to make a triple draw game good, and from what I understand there are plenty of bad players at all of the limits.

I don't know if playing TD is worth it or not in terms of win-rate, bankroll managment, etc. Its certainly hard to multi-table TD- both because of the amount of clicking and the lack of games. And I have a feeling that I could win more by multitabling NLHE sngs, but I love the pain.....

Re: Is Triple Draw really worth it?
 

This is all very interesting to hear. I havent played 2-7 but i've played plenty of razz. Its sounds just like if you were talking about razz.
[ QUOTE ]
Yes, the variance is high and yes a lot of the decisions are automatic. One part of the problem (if it could be called a problem) is that in order to increase your edge you also increase variance through playing the turn aggresively and liberal value-betting on the river. But all it takes is one bad player to make a triple draw game good, and from what I understand there are plenty of bad players at all of the limits.

I don't know if playing TD is worth it or not in terms of win-rate, bankroll managment, etc. Its certainly hard to multi-table TD- both because of the amount of clicking and the lack of games. And I have a feeling that I could win more by multitabling NLHE sngs, but I love the pain.....

Re: Is Triple Draw really worth it?
 

[ QUOTE ]
This is all very interesting to hear. I havent played 2-7 but i've played plenty of razz. Its sounds just like if you were talking about razz.


[/ QUOTE ]

My experience with razz is quite limited, and I either run bad or suck, probably a little of both I think. But the fuller tables make razz not nearly as fun as triple draw imo.

Re: Is Triple Draw really worth it?
 

[ QUOTE ]
There is without a doubt a certain masochism involved in playing duece. And this pain is something that I'm experiencing right now after my 50 bet loss yesterday and bad running right now- even in the low stakes games on stars which are so much better than I ever saw on UB.

I don't know if playing TD is worth it or not in terms of win-rate, bankroll managment, etc. Its certainly hard to multi-table TD- both because of the amount of clicking and the lack of games. And I have a feeling that I could win more by multitabling NLHE sngs, but I love the pain.....

[/ QUOTE ]

Friend,

I have played low limit TDL against you on UB. I had one very bad day, one of the worst ever on UB playing TDL. I beat the seven stud games there easily but TDL proved very costly. I also sat and watched you TDL game and started avoiding you if I had a choice. You are too good for me to play TDL against. However, I have seen you down a 100 big bets and if it can happen to a player as good as you then what chance is there for me...

Re: Is Triple Draw really worth it?
 

Much appreciated sir.

I just started playing again after a long absence, but my experience was that I would have a -100 bet downswing on average about once every two weeks. (averaging probably 6 hours/day everyday) And thats why I'm a firm believer in a 500 bet roll for TD. Perhaps at the lower stakes its possible to get by with a little less, but I think a big roll is nice just to help maintain emotional control when the inevitable downswing occurs.

But with big losses come big wins as well, and I had many periods where I made 100-150 bets in 2-3 days. I once helped contribute to one of the nuttier UB players (Gary) turn $11 into over $500 in just a few hours at 2-4. Gary would usually lose big but I don't think he cared too much about the stakes and he liked the TD action- I know there are players like him in the bigger games too.

Re: Is Triple Draw really worth it?
 

[ QUOTE ]
The general problem is that any poker game where decision outcomes, regardless of how they are derived, are the same for both expert and fish is going to be one with a lower win rate. And it seems to me that there are a *lot* of scenarios where this is the case in Triple Draw.

gl

dd

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not following you here. Where are decision outcomes the same for fish and expert? Perhaps some examples....

Re: Is Triple Draw really worth it?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
This is all very interesting to hear. I havent played 2-7 but i've played plenty of razz. Its sounds just like if you were talking about razz.


[/ QUOTE ]

My experience with razz is quite limited, and I either run bad or suck, probably a little of both I think. But the fuller tables make razz not nearly as fun as triple draw imo.

[/ QUOTE ]

Razz has the lowest variance of any game I have ever played. If you play tight and as advised in Sklansky on Razz you wont experience any huge downswings like you can in TD. Razz got a bad reputation during the 2003 WSOP thanks to Norman Chad's jokes, he really hurt that game.

TT [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

Re: Is Triple Draw really worth it?
 

Phat, I was being precise as I didnt want it to seem that the fish and expert made the same decision, just that what they eventually did was the same. So for a straightforward example, with a draw to go, a bad player may stay pat on all J and better against two players drawing one, but an expert may only stay on a 9 - assuming that Danny N's maths is right [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] But when the fish has a 9 he is making the right move anyway. So although his decision process was flawed, it didn't matter as the *outcome* was the same.

I believe in general, a big part of edge and hence win rate is what and how you do different from your competition. Games like stud 8b and to an extent Omaha hilo have lots of things. It seems to me that in Triple Draw the biggest edge you can get is your temperment, and then hold onto your hat!

cheers

Dave

Re: Is Triple Draw really worth it?
 

OK, now I understand.

So for a straightforward example, with a draw to go, a bad player may stay pat on all J and better against two players drawing one, but an expert may only stay on a 9 - assuming that Danny N's maths is right But when the fish has a 9 he is making the right move anyway.

True, but the P of the fish breaking his 9 incorrectly is greater than that of the expert's.

But I quibble. I understand what you are saying, but I think it's true of all poker games, and can't see what it would be more true of TD. A bad PLO player may draw to a gutshot, but he's also going to draw to a big wrap. There are more gutshots than wraps in PLO, but there are also more Js than 9s in TD.

jmo

Re: Is Triple Draw really worth it?
 

Another argument against TDL is that the nuts are obvious so there is less nuanced play is available for expert players. A fish in hold'em will think himself winning but rarely know it. In TDL the fish is jamming with 75432 as well as the expert. In Hold'em there are many more instances of the near nuts that an expert would milk but a fish would not be able to.

Re: Is Triple Draw really worth it?
 

Phat,

When I wrote the example I was pretty aware it wasn't a good one. I just didnt want to do a Sklansky and say "Imagine a holdem game with 14 players and 1 card..." The general point is that some poker games reward better decision making more than others. The problem with TD, as far as I can see, is that in quite a few spots the play is so rote that the decision making is somewhat removed and bad and good players alike end up playing the same. This reduces win rate. Also, like a lot of low only games, there is a big luck factor. But more so. This increases variance. So fun and meta game to one side, why play it? I think I'm done with it now.

gl

bdd

Re: Is Triple Draw really worth it?
 

[ QUOTE ]
So meta game to one side, why play it?


[/ QUOTE ]

Because gambling is fun. And this is as close to gambling as I will get.

TT [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

Re: Is Triple Draw really worth it?
 

To be fair, I did say fun as well. I do think its fun too. But if I want fun I can jerj off on the Net.

gl

bdd

Re: Is Triple Draw really worth it?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Phat,

When I wrote the example I was pretty aware it wasn't a good one. I just didnt want to do a Sklansky and say "Imagine a holdem game with 14 players and 1 card..." The general point is that some poker games reward better decision making more than others. The problem with TD, as far as I can see, is that in quite a few spots the play is so rote that the decision making is somewhat removed and bad and good players alike end up playing the same. This reduces win rate. Also, like a lot of low only games, there is a big luck factor. But more so. This increases variance. So fun and meta game to one side, why play it? I think I'm done with it now.

gl

bdd

[/ QUOTE ]

oddly enough I think the bad players at Razz are still quite exploitable. There are players who will call bets on 6th street when just looking at the exposed cards, they should realize they are drawing dead. (granted Razz has more information so its a lot easier to identify the person playing so poorly)

Re: Is Triple Draw really worth it?
 

I find it a nice change from Razz to be able to play PL just wish there was PL Razz.

Re: Is Triple Draw really worth it?
 

[ QUOTE ]
To be fair, I did say fun as well. I do think its fun too. But if I want fun I can jerj off on the Net.

gl

bdd

[/ QUOTE ]

But how big an edge do you really have jerking off? these days anyone can use the net to jerk off. Your outcome will just be the same as those bad jerkoffs

Re: Is Triple Draw really worth it?
 

[ QUOTE ]
The general problem is that any poker game where decision outcomes, regardless of how they are derived, are the same for both expert and fish is going to be one with a lower win rate. And it seems to me that there are a *lot* of scenarios where this is the case in Triple Draw.


[/ QUOTE ]

Yes but there are plenty of situations where this is not the case.

I'm just ending a trip to Vegas and played quite a bit in mixed games. A lot of these folks are awful, calling raises and drawing 3 (and not even w/ a 23) calling a BB and drawing 2 in smallish pots. Also tells that are much more obvious and reliable, not to mention that position is huge. You just know if the guy made or missed his draw.

I dunno, maybe I was just blessed with a good games. But if they stay that way I won't complain.

Re: Is Triple Draw really worth it?
 

All my jerk offs have a happy ending.

gl

bdd

Re: Is Triple Draw really worth it?
 

I'm sure a lot of people are bad but not all the examples you gave are necessarily representative of that. Low to mid limit games are extremely straightforward so that's why you think its so easy in position, they never bluff!

-DeathDonkey

Re: Is Triple Draw really worth it?
 

[ QUOTE ]
"Imagine a holdem game with 14 players and 1 card..."

[/ QUOTE ]

*giggle toot*

Re: Is Triple Draw really worth it?
 

the vast majority of the info in this thread is just flat out wrong. a good player in 2-7 has a significantly bigger edge in the game than a similarly good player in almost all games, just with (admittedly, significantly) higher variance.

bad players simply do not adapt properly in this game and play predictably. a good player can utilize position, a bad player can't. a good player draws smooth in multiway pots, a bad player doesn't. a bad player misses value often (more often than in other games since it's not always obvious), a good player doesn't. a bad player doesn't break 78s or 9s when s/he should, a good player does. a bad player doesn't ever try to make people break when they will, a good player does.

triple draw is, quite simply, a money machine, and people who don't understand more advanced concepts about the game will always feel like it's "just gambling." bluntly, they're wrong. the game is just less obvious than other games when it comes to playing well as opposed to not-poorly, but that's precisely why a good player will have a significantly bigger edge in this game than others.