To Induce, or Not to Induce
 

hand 1

folds to MP3(19/12/3.2)who raises, folds to me in the bb with Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], i call.

Flop(4.5sb): K [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] Q [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] K [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

i check, MP bets, i c/r, he 3bets, i call.

Turn(5.25bb): 4 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

i check, he checks.

River(5.25bb): 3 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

i check...

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hand 2

i raise K [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]7 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] on the button, sb folds, bb(21/8/2.6)calls.

Flop(4.5sb): A [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]6 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]K [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

he checks, i bet, he calls.

Turn(3.25bb): T [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

he checks, i check?

Re: To Induce, or Not to Induce
 

Hand 1 I 4-bet at times on the flop, and I usually induce on the river.

Hand #2 - I don't see much wrong with giving a free card there. Whats your plan on the river given a blank? What about if it pairs the board or is a bway card?

TT [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

Re: To Induce, or Not to Induce
 

I think I like hand one because his range includes a good number of hands that can't call a bet (and that will probably bluff the river. Its probably close though considering he is never folding A high in this spot. I guess it depends if he is the type to 3bet A high for a cheap showdown in this spot. Also are you c/ring the river? I don't think he is ever ahead, but I also don't know if he has a hand that can call a c/r.

Re: To Induce, or Not to Induce
 

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are you c/ring the river?

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no.

Re: To Induce, or Not to Induce
 

I would probably bet the first hand. He might bluff a missed FD but I could see him playing other hands similarly that would just be happy to showdown (med. pp might not bet turn or river). He will probably call with a lot of these. However, if he is aggressive enough to bluff/raise that river I would just check.

Hand 2 I think inducing is OK but it looks clsoe and I'm not sure.

Re: To Induce, or Not to Induce
 

yes, no

Re: To Induce, or Not to Induce
 

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Hand #2 - I don't see much wrong with giving a free card there. Whats your plan on the river given a blank? What about if it pairs the board or is a bway card?

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on a blank if he bets, i call. if it pairs the board and he bets, i call. if it's a broadway card and he bets, i call. i will say, in all of the above scenarios i have been known to raise a marginal portion of the time. more often in the broadway scenario if i think he caught a Q or something to pay me off. if he checks the river in any of the above scenarios i'm valuebetting all of them.

Re: To Induce, or Not to Induce
 

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hand 2

i raise K [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]7 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] on the button, sb folds, bb(21/8/2.6)calls.

Flop(4.5sb): A [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]6 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] K [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

he checks, i bet, he calls.

Turn(3.25bb): 2 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

he checks, i check?

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i royally screwed up the board as i was posting from memory. this is the actual board. i don't know why i thought it was a ten on the turn.

Re: To Induce, or Not to Induce
 

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Hand #2 - I don't see much wrong with giving a free card there. Whats your plan on the river given a blank? What about if it pairs the board or is a bway card?

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maybe im bet/folding too many turns but this looks like an easy bet/fold to me (w/a T being the turn card - i can see reasons for checking a raggy turn card).
could someone explain the reasons for inducing w/K7 on AKrT board? we are way behind or villain is drawing from 2 to 9 outs.

Re: To Induce, or Not to Induce
 

i'm not sure what i do on hand n°2, but i would be interested to know what do you think he flat-calls the flop with, and therefore given his hand what are the advantages of checking the turn.

is it like: if i bet he will call me down of c/r me with a hand that beats me or as a bluff and i won't be able to see a showdown

and: he 'll fold if i have him beat, instead of taking a shot on the river if i show weakness.

Re: To Induce, or Not to Induce
 

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i'm not sure what i do on hand n°2, but i would be interested to know what do you think he flat-calls the flop with, and therefore given his hand what are the advantages of checking the turn.

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i think we see a hand like QJ, JT, QT, some flush draw or a PP most of the time. HU the flushdraw is less of a concern, but if it is against me it's only putting one bet in on the turn and river UI, anyway. the other hands have 2-4 outs.

edit to say of course i am behind to an ace or some other hand that beats me at times as well. above i was just referring to the hands i would be attempting to induce a bet from.

Re: To Induce, or Not to Induce
 

Both of these hands represent situations I try specifically to avoid playing low limit poker against poor opponents. The reason is they can be very frustrating, can be costly, high variance, rake feedings, and involve a high degree of aggression with marginal holdings. I feel that in higher limit games these types of plays have much more value, overcome the rake, and provide some sort of advertising, however to poor low limit players it just provides frustration and general feelings of duress. They make tons of more errors in multiway pots, why play them heads up and make their calling station tendancies and terrible bluffs more or less correct?

Anyways. That is just my opinion. Hand 1 I fold pre-flop because this hand sucks ass and you are oop. I dont care suited connected you are heads up and not getting enough odds.

Hand 2 I let the blinds chop because K7s is another multiway hand that doesnt have a strong enough edge and may be behind against hands they will defend against in the blind.

I cant comment on your post flop play because I try to avoid situations like these, and have limited experience.

-J

Re: To Induce, or Not to Induce
 

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Both of these hands represent situations I try specifically to avoid playing low limit poker against poor opponents. The reason is they can be very frustrating, can be costly, high variance, rake feedings, and involve a high degree of aggression with marginal holdings. I feel that in higher limit games these types of plays have much more value, overcome the rake, and provide some sort of advertising,

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so never move up in limits.

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however to poor low limit players it just provides frustration and general feelings of duress. They make tons of more errors in multiway pots, why play them heads up and make their calling station tendancies and terrible bluffs more or less correct?

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actually in multiway pots that are more sizeable than the SH/HU type, their calling-station tendencies are more correct because they are often getting sufficient odds to draw if behind, as well as pay off with a weaker hand that might beat a bluff with enough frequency to show profit. in a HU pot they are hopelessly drawing or chasing when the best move is to just let it go given the horrible odds. the pot's smaller size has more of an effect of magnifying their errors to a greater degree. this is especially true when you get into evaluating effective odds for their hand in the HU situations vs. the overlay they get in a multiway hand.

Re: To Induce, or Not to Induce
 

Hmmm... I think you played both of these hands pretty poorly.

First, hand 1. Don't fall for that lame flop 3-bet... most players with big hands tend to just call the flop c/r, intending to raise the turn. That flop 3-bet is almost always a free card play with a hand that wants to showdown cheap. In that spot, I cap and lead, or call and donk, but call and check is right out.

Having called and checked, and having had him essentially turn his hand face up as a hand that very likely wants doesn't believe you but wants to showdown cheap, you MUST bet the river. This gets checked behind way too often by a hand that would call a bet (any A, middle pocket pair, etc).

ok, hand 2. First, if you're going to induce bluffs, why not start right on the flop? There's no point in waiting until he tells you he has a hand to start inducing bluffs. Second, once he calls the flop, there aren't really any bluffs to induce any more. I mean, what do you think he called the flop with? Maybe QT or JT, but then, he's not bluffing the river with those, is he? Maybe a 6, but again, no river bluff is coming. If he bets the river, you're probably toast, but will likely pay off anyways.

In light of that, given the way you played the flop, your best plan here is to bet the turn planning to take a free showdown. Charge hands that are behind, while limiting your losses to 1 BB. Sure, you give him a chance to outplay you this way, but this is the best way to spend the 1 BB you have left in this hand. Fold if you are required to put in any more money.

good luck.
Eric

Re: To Induce, or Not to Induce
 

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hand 2

i raise K [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]7 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] on the button, sb folds, bb(21/8/2.6)calls.

Flop(4.5sb): A [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]6 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] K [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

he checks, i bet, he calls.

Turn(3.25bb): 2 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

he checks, i check?

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i royally screwed up the board as i was posting from memory. this is the actual board. i don't know why i thought it was a ten on the turn.

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ah, that does change things... now there are a number of drawing hands that can still bluff the river (ie, QT, QJ, JT as well as all diamonds are all still in play for river bluffs).

In this case, your turn check has a lot more merit. For me, it would be opponent dependent... against passive players, I bet. Against aggressive players, I check, or sometimes, bet / call down. Knowing your opponent is key to hand 2. Hand 1 is still a significant misplay IMo.

-eric

Re: To Induce, or Not to Induce
 

Can we please have Tomlin back? We'll give you Childress and a first round pick.

Re: To Induce, or Not to Induce
 

[ QUOTE ]
Can we please have Tomlin back? We'll give you Childress and a first round pick.

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i'm glad to hear the support he is receiving. apparently he has drawn respect from most people associated with him. maybe he can follow in his predecessors' footsteps.

Re: To Induce, or Not to Induce
 

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hand 2

i raise K [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]7 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] on the button, sb folds, bb(21/8/2.6)calls.

Flop(4.5sb): A [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]6 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] K [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

he checks, i bet, he calls.

Turn(3.25bb): 2 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

he checks, i check?

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i royally screwed up the board as i was posting from memory. this is the actual board. i don't know why i thought it was a ten on the turn.

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ah, that does change things... now there are a number of drawing hands that can still bluff the river (ie, QT, QJ, JT as well as all diamonds are all still in play for river bluffs).

In this case, your turn check has a lot more merit. For me, it would be opponent dependent... against passive players, I bet. Against aggressive players, I check, or sometimes, bet / call down. Knowing your opponent is key to hand 2. Hand 1 is still a significant misplay IMo.

-eric

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thanks, elindauer. yeah, i often call the flop and donk the turn in hand 1 but this opponent was very, very aggressive, but also capable of folding a ton of hands i beat when i play back. the river check to him is going to solicit a bet out of any hand that would have called on the river and more, IMO. you see it differently and i really respect you so i'm going to think about it some more.

Re: To Induce, or Not to Induce
 

Hi james,

To go with your read in hand 1, I'd need a read that the opponent was really aggressive. Not just standard, TAG aggressive, but kind of a semi-maniac at least. I've just seen SOOOO any players 3-bet the flop, check the turn, and then call the river with hands like AJ, AT, sometimes Ax, mid pocket pairs... and all of these are likely to check behind, as they are putting you on missed spades or a missed straight draw and see no value to betting.

I know they check behind because every once in a while i get tricky with a big hand and end up regretting it.

good luck.
eric

PS note that I tend to play reasonably decent and aggressive players, which of course taints everything I write.

Re: To Induce, or Not to Induce
 

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PS note that I tend to play reasonably decent and aggressive players, which of course taints everything I write.

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duly noted. what i have found since i started playing a bit more LHE online(i started a hiatus of serious online play back in July)is that the tighter players on the site i play are hyperaggro. they spew chips in all the wrong spots, as well as get uncharacteristically passive in wrong spots. hopeless semibluffs or pure bluffs that would never work with the frequency needed to make them viable plays.

case in point the AA hand i posted. i was raised on the turn there by A [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]9 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]. he had picked up a flushdraw with his gutty, and even when it was pretty obvious that both of us were never folding on that turn, he raised it. at that point my image would not be one that had bet/folded much, but i had been playing tight.

as a result i have become a showdown monkey in these certain small and medium stakes games. why? because the players are tight and aggressive, but they suck. they bluff/semibluff raise way too much, so in lots of HU spots i'm showing down most anything reasonable. the biggest difference i've noticed in the lower stakes vs. the medium or higher stakes TAGs, is the ability(or lack thereof)to hand read and put pressure on in the right spots. all of this said, my point is i think these lower stakes TAGs have the grrr bet, bet, try to be aggressive-mentality that is exploitable in various ways. since i read this as such, i thought i could get a bet out of him that i otherwise would not have. the flip side of the coin, is that often players that have this mentality are very paranoid of getting bluffed themselves, so they(as you alluded to)will call very light(Ax, pp, etc.)on that river.

Re: To Induce, or Not to Induce
 

you got it.

Re: To Induce, or Not to Induce
 

Hand 1: Calling a TAG in the BB with Q8s? Urrggghhh! I appreciate you're getting better than 3 to 1 pot odds, but I think playing with that kind of hand out of position, and against that kind of player, must have a -EV.

Hand 2: Against a passive player, I'd bet the turn (and fold to a c/r or check/fold the river). Against an aggressive player, I'd check the turn and call (or bet if checked to) on the river.

Re: To Induce, or Not to Induce
 

hey bigdan,

pf is sooooo standard for me. and if you think about it, i could even say i'm getting more like 4-1 b/c he will bet when checked to always on the flop. nope, no fold for me.

Re: To Induce, or Not to Induce
 

Fair enough, mate, but perhaps I'm just not as comfortable playing that sort of hand out of position. Given that you'll miss the flop about 2 in 3 times (with just Q high to play with) and that you'll be dominated some of the time that you do hit, I'm not convinced. Still, I've had a bad run of cards recently and am probably playing a little tighter than usual at the moment!

Re: To Induce, or Not to Induce
 

calling PF here is lighting money on fire.

Re: To Induce, or Not to Induce
 

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calling PF here is lighting money on fire.

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hand 1

folds to MP3(19/12/3.2)who raises

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sigh. IT'S AN OPEN RAISE FROM THE FREAKIN' CUTOFF PEOPLE! HE IS NOT RAISING UTG FOR CRYING OUT LOUD.

Re: To Induce, or Not to Induce
 

This doesnt change the fact that your hand sucks, the pot is tiny, and you are OOP. Now, if this guy was bullying your blind like everytime, itd be different. Until that happens let the thing go.

Re: To Induce, or Not to Induce
 

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This doesnt change the fact that your hand sucks, the pot is tiny, and you are OOP. Now, if this guy was bullying your blind like everytime, itd be different. Until that happens let the thing go.

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it sucks? give me a range for a 12%PFR open raising from the HJ with at least one(me)tight blind. guess what, it's wide. my hand is not a 3-1 underdog to his range. if you think it is, will you show me?

Re: To Induce, or Not to Induce
 

James:

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ive me a range for a 12%PFR open raising from the HJ with at least one(me)tight blind. guess what, it's wide. my hand is not a 3-1 underdog to his range.

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I am with you all the way here....this is an easy pf call vs a guy with those stats.

But is there any hand that is a 3:1 dog to his range?

Re: To Induce, or Not to Induce
 

chino, james' right. specify a hand range for CO, given his stats and his position, run 3 billions simulations, and u'll see that you're getting good odds. even though you might be dominated sometimes. even though you're oop. it's just maths.

Re: To Induce, or Not to Induce
 

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calling PF here is lighting money on fire.




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Man, I would call preflop here every time aagainst this player, and I usually seem to have more money left at the end of the month, than at the beginning. Maybe I should light more money on fire.

I like check/calling the hand all the way down, its the cheapest way to play it if you are behind, and you probably win the most from hands that you beat by playing passively here.

Re: To Induce, or Not to Induce
 

stats on this type of defense please?

Re: To Induce, or Not to Induce
 

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Can we please have Tomlin back? We'll give you Childress and a first round pick.




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