turn bet
 

live 20-40, great game, I've got deranged and le petit bus to my right and there are a ton of soft spots. I wanted some input on the turn but think the flop is bad and pre-flop might be bad but I like playing so anyways

I'm in the SB with 6 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]4 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

utg +1 loose somewhat passive not good fish limps, taggy type player limps, another passive fish limps, Deranged raises on the button, I call (?), all call.

5 to the flop for 10.5 sbs. The flop is A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

Everyone checks to will and he bets. I decide to call (which is most likely retarded) as Will is solid and no one will rais him here with [censored] aces and I can't see any of these guys limping with good ones. Fish utg calls, taggy guy check-raises, another fish folds, Will calls so I know what he has so I call and then the utg fish calls.

4 to the turn 9.25 BBs: 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] and I bet.

Re: turn bet
 

you never win this hand without getting there. even if deranged can make a fold, the others likely can't. if you had the good end of the open ender you could argue for value, but with clubs and not knowing if an 8 is good for you it's definitely not value, so what is it? if taggy guy has something real then drawing at the ass end for two bets sucks.

Re: turn bet
 

uhhhh ok, i hate it so far

Re: turn bet
 

Turn good. Getting there not good.

Re: turn bet
 

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you never win this hand without getting there.

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Agreed.

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even if deranged can make a fold,

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He either has AA or he's not raising. He's probably folding, but I doubt he's raising me here.

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if you had the good end of the open ender you could argue for value

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not with one card to come you couldn't.

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but with clubs and not knowing if an 8 is good for you it's definitely not value, so what is it?

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If I hit a str8 its likely good. UTG fishy guy could have anything, so he's the one to worry about if I do make my str8. Deranged range after he just calls the flop c/r is 99-AA, maybe big clubs but that's less likely. Check-raiser either has a decent ace like A9s, two pair with A7A6s, a set, or a good draw, less likely a draw.



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if taggy guy has something real then drawing at the ass end for two bets sucks.

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I thought I'd be able to see the river for one bet.

Re: turn bet
 

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live 20-40, great game, I've got deranged and le petit bus to my right and there are a ton of soft spots. I wanted some input on the turn but think the flop is bad and pre-flop might be bad but I like playing so anyways

I'm in the SB with 6 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]4 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

utg +1 loose somewhat passive not good fish limps, taggy type player limps, another passive fish limps, Deranged raises on the button, I call (?), all call.

5 to the flop for 10.5 sbs. The flop is A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

Everyone checks to will and he bets. I decide to call (which is most likely retarded) as Will is solid and no one will rais him here with [censored] aces and I can't see any of these guys limping with good ones. Fish utg calls, taggy guy check-raises, another fish folds, Will calls so I know what he has so I call and then the utg fish calls.

4 to the turn 9.25 BBs: 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] and I bet.

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You shoulda check/folded the flop. Especially when Will bet & the other TAG player checkraises...

Re: turn bet
 

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You shoulda check/folded the flop. Especially when Will bet & the other TAG player checkraises...


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I should have c/f'd the flop once button bets for sure. Then there's a c/r and will doesn't 3-bet....I should fold there for one? That doesn't seem right to me at all. The first bet is an easy, easy, easy fold. I was getting optimistic, don't know what else you'd call it. I wasn't losing so you can't call it tilt so optimism. The second was fine I think.

Re: turn bet
 

I'm just going to say that I liked this play when Brett made it.

Re: turn bet
 

Fold preflop and on the flop. Hand is just too small to keep going. As for the turn bet--good luck!

Re: turn bet
 

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Fold preflop

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What's your range here for calling pre-flop?

Re: turn bet
 

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Especially when Will bet & the other TAG player checkraises...

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Leaving Bret's play on the side briefly, what range of hands does will have when he bets the flop, and then calls a c/r? How does that look to Bret?

TT [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

Re: turn bet
 

98s is the minumum here (for me), 64s isn't quite good enough out of position.

Re: turn bet
 

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I'm just going to say that I liked this play when Brett made it.

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Exactly. Who cares about preflop and flop. Seriously. The decision being proposed is the turn, and I think it's a must bet.

Re: turn bet
 

Your seat sucks. Try to move or get up and leave the table. OMG, fold preflop.

Re: turn bet
 

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Exactly. Who cares about preflop and flop

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Yeah, he fxd this up way before preflop. His seat selection is horrible.

Re: turn bet
 

I think the call preflop is fine. You're going to get a great price once all the limpers call and the probable call from the BB (did he actually call?)

I don't really know what you're thinking about on the flop but that is just a fold. Your relative position to the raiser in this hand is horrible, and a lot of times once you call the button's bet you won't be able to even see a turn card since it will be multiple more bets to you.

How is this turn a must bet? No one is folding anything, there is a good chance you get raised here, and a legitimate chance that you are drawing stone dead.

I think preflop is fine. I think the rest is terrible.

Re: turn bet
 

With 4 players already in and the BB yet to act, pf is an easy call. Even if it's 5 way, it's a call. I have to believe it's +EV for players who play well.

I'd like it a lot better without the fl dr out. I'd try to get through the turn as cheaply as possible here and I think that's done by ch'ing. Although leading can work similar to a blocking bet in NL. It may actually slow someone down and prevent a raise.

Re: turn bet
 

well, you're not folding the turn so i like it.

Re: turn bet
 

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His seat selection is horrible.


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It isn't like I wandered into game, asked everyone to stand, then arranged the players in such a way that I got the least desirable seat. And it isn't like theres 3 more tables to choose from either.

or:


When I ask about my shoes I don't care what you think about my pants.

Re: turn bet
 

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I think the call preflop is fine.

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Ya, I dunno. I knew I would get 5 ways multiway, with a possibly opportunity to c/r a LP flop bet. I don't love it, but I don't hate it either. Plus I sort of go out of my way to play more pots these days.



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I don't really know what you're thinking about on the flop but that is just a fold.

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Agreed. Fish call with the field to act. This is retarded.

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How is this turn a must bet? No one is folding anything, there is a good chance you get raised here, and a legitimate chance that you are drawing stone dead.


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I"m not at all worried about drawing dead. I" dont' think I'm winning u/i. I bet in the hopes of seeing the turn for one bet. Given my flop play, my image, the weirdness of my bet, I thought it was a pretty good play.

Re: turn bet
 

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I think the call preflop is fine.

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Ya, I dunno. I knew I would get 5 ways multiway, with a possibly opportunity to c/r a LP flop bet. I don't love it, but I don't hate it either. Plus I sort of go out of my way to play more pots these days.



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I don't really know what you're thinking about on the flop but that is just a fold.

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Agreed. Fish call with the field to act. This is retarded.

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How is this turn a must bet? No one is folding anything, there is a good chance you get raised here, and a legitimate chance that you are drawing stone dead.


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I"m not at all worried about drawing dead. I" dont' think I'm winning u/i. I bet in the hopes of seeing the turn for one bet. Given my flop play, my image, the weirdness of my bet, I thought it was a pretty good play.

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I don't understand how betting this turn or checking this turn changes how much you pay to see a river card. Just think about it.

Re: turn bet
 

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I don't understand how betting this turn or checking this turn changes how much you pay to see a river card. Just think about it.

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when brett checks the turn, taggy guy will bet and will is going to raise. if brett bets the turn he could freeze up the action since his hand looks like a monster and many hands that would have bet or raised the turn may just call.

Re: turn bet
 

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I don't understand how betting this turn or checking this turn changes how much you pay to see a river card. Just think about it.

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when brett checks the turn, taggy guy will bet and will is going to raise. if brett bets the turn he could freeze up the action since his hand looks like a monster and many hands that would have bet or raised the turn may just call.

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Yes I understand this concept of a donk bet on the turn as being used as a no limit type block bet to see the river for cheap strategy. However, if deranged is an expert player, and that's what Brett has classified him as being I'm assuming, then why would he think Brett wouldn't try to check raise or check 3 bet two guys on the turn with his monster? Given the action on the flop where the button wasn't the last aggressor and the guy in the middle WAS the last aggressor, I think any monster here would try to check raise both players on the turn here right? So pretty much all this rambling is leading to is that I think that deranged's action on the turn matters very little about what Brett does. Therefore I think check calling is best for Brett here since betting out really will accomplish nothing.

Re: turn bet
 

First of all if I knew I could check-call and see the turn for one I would. I also don't think Deranged has a monster, this I've said. I thought and still think I have a higher liklihood of seeing the turn for one bet this way. I don't think Deranged has all that much, really, but I do think he could raise the turn here with a lot of hands he doesn't love to try to get it HU with the flop c/r'er.

Re: turn bet
 

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I don't understand how betting this turn or checking this turn changes how much you pay to see a river card. Just think about it.

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when brett checks the turn, taggy guy will bet and will is going to raise. if brett bets the turn he could freeze up the action since his hand looks like a monster and many hands that would have bet or raised the turn may just call.

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Yes I understand this concept of a donk bet on the turn as being used as a no limit type block bet to see the river for cheap strategy. However, if deranged is an expert player, and that's what Brett has classified him as being I'm assuming, then why would he think Brett wouldn't try to check raise or check 3 bet two guys on the turn with his monster? Given the action on the flop where the button wasn't the last aggressor and the guy in the middle WAS the last aggressor, I think any monster here would try to check raise both players on the turn here right? So pretty much all this rambling is leading to is that I think that deranged's action on the turn matters very little about what Brett does. Therefore I think check calling is best for Brett here since betting out really will accomplish nothing.

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You have absolutely no idea what the bet is trying to accomplish or, for that matter, any sense of what range of hands Will might have.

Re: turn bet
 

Bret - i forgot to tell you yesterday, you played this hand like a retard. Until the turn. At least you know it was retarded - until the turn. Thank you for sharing your retarded hand - until the turn. I am happy to see that by the turn you are no longer retarded.

TT [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

Re: turn bet
 

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Bret - i forgot to tell you yesterday, you played this hand like a retard. Until the turn. At least you know it was retarded - until the turn. Thank you for sharing your retarded hand - until the turn. I am happy to see that by the turn you are no longer retarded.

TT [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

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I was only "special" on the flop. Pre-flop is eh. The turn is super.

Re: turn bet
 

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Bret - i forgot to tell you yesterday, you played this hand like a retard. Until the turn. At least you know it was retarded - until the turn. Thank you for sharing your retarded hand - until the turn. I am happy to see that by the turn you are no longer retarded.

TT [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

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I was only "special" on the flop. Pre-flop is eh. The turn is super.

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I think I will not classify you as an idiot savant on the turn. I love it.

TT [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

Re: turn bet
 

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I don't understand how betting this turn or checking this turn changes how much you pay to see a river card. Just think about it.

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when brett checks the turn, taggy guy will bet and will is going to raise. if brett bets the turn he could freeze up the action since his hand looks like a monster and many hands that would have bet or raised the turn may just call.

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Yes I understand this concept of a donk bet on the turn as being used as a no limit type block bet to see the river for cheap strategy. However, if deranged is an expert player, and that's what Brett has classified him as being I'm assuming, then why would he think Brett wouldn't try to check raise or check 3 bet two guys on the turn with his monster? Given the action on the flop where the button wasn't the last aggressor and the guy in the middle WAS the last aggressor, I think any monster here would try to check raise both players on the turn here right? So pretty much all this rambling is leading to is that I think that deranged's action on the turn matters very little about what Brett does. Therefore I think check calling is best for Brett here since betting out really will accomplish nothing.

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You have absolutely no idea what the bet is trying to accomplish or, for that matter, any sense of what range of hands Will might have.

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I 100% know what he's trying to accomplish by this bet. You've played new york city club games before. You really think this donk bet is a good idea in this type of game?

Re: turn bet
 

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I don't understand how betting this turn or checking this turn changes how much you pay to see a river card. Just think about it.

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when brett checks the turn, taggy guy will bet and will is going to raise. if brett bets the turn he could freeze up the action since his hand looks like a monster and many hands that would have bet or raised the turn may just call.

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Yes I understand this concept of a donk bet on the turn as being used as a no limit type block bet to see the river for cheap strategy. However, if deranged is an expert player, and that's what Brett has classified him as being I'm assuming, then why would he think Brett wouldn't try to check raise or check 3 bet two guys on the turn with his monster? Given the action on the flop where the button wasn't the last aggressor and the guy in the middle WAS the last aggressor, I think any monster here would try to check raise both players on the turn here right? So pretty much all this rambling is leading to is that I think that deranged's action on the turn matters very little about what Brett does. Therefore I think check calling is best for Brett here since betting out really will accomplish nothing.

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You have absolutely no idea what the bet is trying to accomplish or, for that matter, any sense of what range of hands Will might have.

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I 100% know what he's trying to accomplish by this bet. You've played new york city club games before. You really think this donk bet is a good idea in this type of game?

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What do you think the result of the donk bet is? What do you think may happen if he doesn't lead into the turn? Considering the size of the pot, whats Brett's best chance to see a river and still get the correct pot odds for his miracle cards??? Oh Yeah... thats a great bet!

TT [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

Re: turn bet
 

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His seat selection is horrible.


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It isn't like I wandered into game, asked everyone to stand, then arranged the players in such a way that I got the least desirable seat. And it isn't like theres 3 more tables to choose from either.

or:


When I ask about my shoes I don't care what you think about my pants.

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lol. i will use that line later some day.

Re: turn bet
 

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I 100% know what he's trying to accomplish by this bet. You've played new york city club games before. You really think this donk bet is a good idea in this type of game?

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You don't understand. One, there's the size of the pot. It's worth fighting over for with a weak hand and hoping to fold anything. You want red KQ to fold. Two, there's some decent chance he's dead if someone raises (assuming Will isn't raising, which basically means AA). Three, when he isn't dead, he's often drawing live but thin. Four, there's a tiny chance he currently has the best hand. Five, if he doesn't have the best hand, there's a decent chance Will has the best hand and peeled with KK/QQ/JJ and a club. Six, betting will almost certainly fold Will. Put the three other players on handranges.

But whatever, don't listen to me. Don't even bother reading this. After all, I'm just some mid-limit donkey who's worth flaming when drunk and can't beat a decent game.

Re: turn bet
 

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I 100% know what he's trying to accomplish by this bet. You've played new york city club games before. You really think this donk bet is a good idea in this type of game?

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You don't understand. One, there's the size of the pot. It's worth fighting over for with a weak hand and hoping to fold anything. You want red KQ to fold. Two, there's some decent chance he's dead if someone raises (assuming Will isn't raising, which basically means AA). Three, when he isn't dead, he's often drawing live but thin. Four, there's a tiny chance he currently has the best hand. Five, if he doesn't have the best hand, there's a decent chance Will has the best hand and peeled with KK/QQ/JJ and a club. Six, betting will almost certainly fold Will. Put the three other players on handranges.

But whatever, don't listen to me. Don't even bother reading this. After all, I'm just some mid-limit donkey who's worth flaming when drunk and can't beat a decent game.

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Ok, we'll agree to disagree then. Cheers

Re: turn bet
 

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After all, I'm just some mid-limit donkey who's worth flaming when drunk and can't beat a decent game.

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hmm, i should start flaming you in the forums when I am drunk, normally I only do this via SMS message. Am I making a mistake?

Re: turn bet
 

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When I ask about my shoes I don't care what you think about my pants.

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But you are wearing plaid pants with tassel loafers.

http://moot.typepad.com/what_if/imag...id_pants_1.jpg

Re: turn bet
 

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When I ask about my shoes I don't care what you think about my pants.

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But you are wearing plaid pants with tassel loafers.

http://moot.typepad.com/what_if/imag...id_pants_1.jpg

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But they insist you wear pants no matter how ugly! If you want in its pants or nothing!

Re: turn bet
 

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live 20-40, great game, I've got deranged and le petit bus to my right and there are a ton of soft spots. I wanted some input on the turn but think the flop is bad and pre-flop might be bad but I like playing so anyways

I'm in the SB with 6 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]4 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

utg +1 loose somewhat passive not good fish limps, taggy type player limps, another passive fish limps, Deranged raises on the button, I call (?), all call.

5 to the flop for 10.5 sbs. The flop is A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

Everyone checks to will and he bets. I decide to call (which is most likely retarded) as Will is solid and no one will rais him here with [censored] aces and I can't see any of these guys limping with good ones. Fish utg calls, taggy guy check-raises, another fish folds, Will calls so I know what he has so I call and then the utg fish calls.

4 to the turn 9.25 BBs: 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] and I bet.

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I really have a hard time swallowing you calling out other players in this game as loose when you did not check fold on the flop. Please do not take this personally but I think some of those people you are calling fish are looking at you with the same comment on their mind...just my opinion. You need to fold that hand.