Party Responds - Hilarity Ensues
 

[email protected] wrote:

Dear Bob,

Thank you for contacting us.

We are glad that you like this months offer with regards to your offer i have passed on your comments to the marketing team who will look into this.

Thank you for taking the time to express your views.

Kind regards

Diane
VIP Poker Customer Care

--Original Message--
From: xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Date: 2006-02-07 16:35
To: [email protected]
Subject: the Acceler-8 promo[#4562352]

Hi -

This looks like a terrifc promo for many players and I applaud the idea.
You guys are coming up with some awesome ideas and I really think you are listening to your customers and giving them what they want.
I have seen the VIP program already grow by leaps and bounds in just a very short time and love the changes you are making.


Some respectful criticism though regarding my own personal target. Please take it for what it's worth because I'm just trying to offer some feedback as to how some players may be reacting to this offer.


My personal offer:
I have to earn 13005 points PER WEEK for just $525.


I'm only playing 3/6.
About 50% of the hands are raked there so this is a LOT of hands to play.

There's just NO WAY I can earn this many points.


If I had a more realistic goal I would do everything possible to try to attain this goal in EACH of the 8 weeks.

But since I can almost NEVER get the goal you have set for me there is almost no point in trying.

I think you guys are making me play way too many points for way too few dollars.

Please consider readjusting my promo.


Others are getting $175 for 2500 points per week
or $310 for 5600 points.


Please reconsider the extremely high target you have set for me in this promo.


Thanks,
Bob xxxxx

Re: Party Responds - Hilarity Ensues
 

They propably stopped reading at the end of the first paragraph. Big deal

Re: Party Responds - Hilarity Ensues
 

yeah perhaps you should have placed the complaint before the compliment in your email. a more forceful tone might have helped your cause, as well. frankly i'm surprised you got it out in the first place; can't be easy typing out an email with party's cock in your ass.

Re: Party Responds - Hilarity Ensues
 

At least you got a response. Ive now sent two emails regarding the fact that I still havent gotten an offer and the thing started 5 minutes ago. Still no answer. How long ago did you send your email to them?

Re: Party Responds - Hilarity Ensues
 

this e-mail was sent around 2 or 3 om I believe.


I agree that they didn't read past the first part unfortunately.

I thought complimenting them (sucking up a little) might ad my cause but obviously it was all too complicated for them to handle.

Re: Party Responds - Hilarity Ensues
 

[ QUOTE ]
this e-mail was sent around 2 or 3 om I believe.


[/ QUOTE ]

That's either the time of day when most people are meditating, or it's the hour of least resistance. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Re: Party Responds - Hilarity Ensues
 

My latest response:



Hello Party folks,

I recently sent an e-mail that was too long to be understood evidently because the response I got from Party was ridiculous.

So I will be direct and to the point this time:


If Party is unable to adjust my target for the Acceler-8-or bonus then I will not be participating in it at all.

13k points per week is ridiculously high for a player like me who only plays 3/6.

I would have to play 56 hours per week if I played 6-tables of full-ring.
I am not going to do this.

I am respectfully requesting that you readjust my bonus. I would love to continue to bring my play to your site.


I am insulted that other players have received good bonuses while I have received one that is far too unrealistic to achieve.


Thank you,
Bob xxxxxxx

Re: Party Responds - Hilarity Ensues
 

change that to 'pm'.


But i like the 'meditation' line.

Re: Party Responds - Hilarity Ensues
 

[ QUOTE ]
At least you got a response. Ive now sent two emails regarding the fact that I still havent gotten an offer and the thing started 5 minutes ago. Still no answer. How long ago did you send your email to them?

[/ QUOTE ]

Do you have a spam blocker program? The email contained invisible text (whatever that is) and was blocked by my spam blocker. Might be worth checking.

Re: Party Responds - Hilarity Ensues
 

[ QUOTE ]
The email contained invisible text (whatever that is)

[/ QUOTE ]



you have to put some tracing paper over it and then gently sketch a charcoal pencil over the top to see the 'hidden message'.

Re: Party Responds - Hilarity Ensues
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
At least you got a response. Ive now sent two emails regarding the fact that I still havent gotten an offer and the thing started 5 minutes ago. Still no answer. How long ago did you send your email to them?

[/ QUOTE ]

Do you have a spam blocker program? The email contained invisible text (whatever that is) and was blocked by my spam blocker. Might be worth checking.

[/ QUOTE ]

Its not in my spam folder if thats what you mean. I use hotmail so is there any other way to change the settings that I dont know about. My spam folder is empty.

Re: Party Responds - Hilarity Ensues
 

well, at least we're putting on the pressure.

Here's my full attempt:

---

Dear xxxxxxxx,

Thank you for contacting us.

It is with regret that we hear you are not happy with the VIP Bonus that is available to you. We have noted your comments, and will pass them onto our Marketing Team.

The target that you have been informed about is fixed and it cannot be revised. We have assessed your target on an individual basis, the time spent at our tables and stakes played are amongst the variables used to produce the target

Thank you for choosing us as your online gaming site!

Joyce
VIP Club
Poker Customer Care

--Original Message--

Dear Party Poker,

Thank you for your offer and I appreciate the incentives that are being given encouraging me to play on your site.

However, my loose calculations of play time required to successfully complete this offer in any given week has me playing twice as long as I typically play. If I had more time to play, I would already be doing so. I understand that one of the reasons behind this promotion is to encourage more play from your players, however, I feel that my offer is asking for too much. If it's at all possible to cut my point requirement (and payout respectively) to about 50 or 60% of what it's currently asking, that would be fantastic and I would see this as a true incentive to play.

Best regards,
xxxxxxxxxxxx

Re: Party Responds - Hilarity Ensues
 

Microbob, you should call your VIP rep. That's probably the best way to get help. A while ago, when they did the raked hands for money thing, I was shortchanged $100. After many emails, they gave me $50. I couldn't get the rest, but I talked to my rep on the phone for about 5-10 minutes and agreed to give me the rest of the money. FWIW, I had him call me back at my house after getting in touch with him and thus avoided international charges.

Re: Party Responds - Hilarity Ensues
 

[ QUOTE ]
...i have passed on your comments to the marketing team who will look into this.


[/ QUOTE ]

What else do you expect this lady to do? Adjust it for you? The marketing department handles this stuff and that is where your letter went.

Re: Party Responds - Hilarity Ensues
 

Marketing departments never do anything.

Re: Party Responds - Hilarity Ensues
 

[ QUOTE ]
[email protected] wrote:

Dear Bob,

Thank you for contacting us.

We are glad that you like this months offer with regards to your offer i have passed on your comments to the marketing team who will look into this.


[/ QUOTE ]

I think you may have gotten the response that you wanted, but the punctuation and structure are screwed. Try this...

We are glad that you like this months offer. With regards to your offer, I have passed on your comments to the marketing team who will look into this.

Better?

Re: Party Responds - Hilarity Ensues
 

I'm basically saying, "Can I get a new offer?" and she's replying, "We're glad you like your offer."

What would i like for them to do?

give me VIP service.
Respond appropriately to the e-mail I'm sending.


My 2nd attempt to send this generated a response that, at least, makes sense.
The representative is correct that it would be under 50 hours (the guy apparently did his homework and I'm somewhat impressed).

I went back and checked the numbers and see that my original estimates of hds/hr and pct-raked were a bit low.

On 3/6 full I am getting 72 hds per hour on a table.
55% of them are raked.
(my previous estimates were 65hds/hr and 50%)

13k points at gold level = almost 11k raked-hands.
6-tables = 237 raked-hands per hour.

This is 46.6 hours.


----------------------------


Dear Bob,

Thank you for contacting us.

I have checked your account and see that to reach the target that we
have asked you to achieve, you will need to increase your time spent at
our tables or stakes you play.

The offer will allow you to earn $525 a week by just meeting the
target, a total of $4200 over an eight week period. Not only will you earn
$4200 but we will also award you an extra $2100 for reaching your target
during the eight week promotion.

If you played on 6 $3/$6 tables as you usually do you would probably be
playing under 50 hours a week to achieve your Bonus.

You can increase the number of points you earn, by either playing on
higher stake tables or by playing on $3/$6 Jackpot Tables.

As previously informed, this is a fixed target and cannot be revised.

If you require further assistance please do not hesitate to contact the
VIP team by email at [email protected].

We wish you the best of luck, and thank you for choosing us as your
online gaming site.

James Wahnon

Re: Party Responds - Hilarity Ensues
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[email protected] wrote:

Dear Bob,

Thank you for contacting us.

We are glad that you like this months offer with regards to your offer i have passed on your comments to the marketing team who will look into this.


[/ QUOTE ]

I think you may have gotten the response that you wanted, but the punctuation and structure are screwed. Try this...

We are glad that you like this months offer. With regards to your offer, I have passed on your comments to the marketing team who will look into this.

Better?

[/ QUOTE ]

This guy is dead on target.
Party was probably so happy and surprised to get a compliment that they forgot how to use proper punctuation.

Re: Party Responds - Hilarity Ensues
 

This is probably correct.


I'm satisfied with the response the 2nd response I got back from them.

It took them a little while to get back to me though...but at least he took the time to construct a response to my specific situation.
Still a little disappointed they won't re-work it for me.


However, he got me on the right track and has me potentially going after this thing anyway......

Re: Party Responds - Hilarity Ensues
 

Call them up in the future. It works out better.

Re: Party Responds - Hilarity Ensues
 

That is a shame they wouldn't give you a new deal.
Guess you will just have to pick up a couple of cases of redbull and unplug your phone for a few months. [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

Re: Party Responds - Hilarity Ensues
 

Latest calculations:


Average rake taken (per raked-hand) at party 3/6 full appears to be $2.09
Average players = 9.2

This is 22.7 cents contributed per raked-hand.

For this bonus I am getting 4.7 cents per raked-hand.

This is the equivilent of getting 21% RB from party.
If I did this for 6 of the weeks then it would end up being 23.6%.

It is still worth considering afterall.


I was previously playing 6-max though and this percentage wouldn't be nearly as high on those games.
avg rake = 1.78
avg players = 5.48

32.6 cents contributerd per hand.
at 4.7 cents in value per RH = 14.4%


I'm still thinking about it.

Re: Party Responds - Hilarity Ensues
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The email contained invisible text (whatever that is)

[/ QUOTE ]


you have to put some tracing paper over it and then gently sketch a charcoal pencil over the top to see the 'hidden message'.

[/ QUOTE ]


It says....

<font color="white"> Drink your Ovaltine! </font>

Re: Party Responds - Hilarity Ensues
 

At least you have something to think about.

Re: Party Responds - Hilarity Ensues
 

[ QUOTE ]
this is a fixed target and cannot be revised.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is one of the biggest BS lines ever.

Re: Party Responds - Hilarity Ensues
 

[ QUOTE ]
Latest calculations:


Average rake taken (per raked-hand) at party 3/6 full appears to be $2.09
Average players = 9.2

This is 22.7 cents contributed per raked-hand.

For this bonus I am getting 4.7 cents per raked-hand.

This is the equivilent of getting 21% RB from party.
If I did this for 6 of the weeks then it would end up being 23.6%.

It is still worth considering afterall.


I was previously playing 6-max though and this percentage wouldn't be nearly as high on those games.
avg rake = 1.78
avg players = 5.48

32.6 cents contributerd per hand.
at 4.7 cents in value per RH = 14.4%


I'm still thinking about it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not to tempt you over to the dark side, but to give you even more to think about, equivalent numbers from Absolute ($3/6 6 max):

Average rake per hand: $1.158
Contributed rake per hand: $0.2657
Raked hands = 74.3%

Note: These are the contributed rake numbers as reported by the General page in PT. AP always reports 20-25% higher MGR, so that's good for me, while apparently not increasing the rake taken per hand. Don't ask me how they get their numbers, I just collect the extra. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Net results are thus:

Bonus collected per hand = $0.07435
Rakeback per hand (28%) = $0.07440


Total per hand = $0.14875

If you exceed $2000 MGR per month, better deals can be had. You know where to shop.

So, not only does AP pay more per hand, they collect less rake on top of it. Look at your net cost per hand, there's a VAST difference here. Plus, AP doesn't punish you for not making it, you can scale up or down at your leisure.

I'll be the first to admit that Absolute is not for everyone, the game selection is sometimes limited, and the games can be tougher. But the cost per hand, assuming your numbers are accurate, is massive. That alone should have you looking elsewhere.

I've also run numbers on Stars and find their cost per hand, after you subtract out the VIP program, is just a little higher than AP, about 15%. Not bad, way better than Party, plus no minimum play requirements, good game selection. Doesn't pay back in cash though. But isn't a lower rake structure the best rakeback of all?

Re: Party Responds - Hilarity Ensues
 

Since emails to Party always get a nonsense response, does anyone every try calling them?

Re: Party Responds - Hilarity Ensues
 

[ QUOTE ]
I was previously playing 6-max though and this percentage wouldn't be nearly as high on those games.
avg rake = 1.78
avg players = 5.48

[/ QUOTE ]

More hands per hour on those tables though, right?

Re: Party Responds - Hilarity Ensues
 

Interesting analysis.
but I do have some disagreements.


[ QUOTE ]
But isn't a lower rake structure the best rakeback of all?

[/ QUOTE ]


Not really.
I would take a higher rake-structure if even higher rake-back went along with it.

If a site asked me, "We will increase your RB by 5%...or we will lower the rake-structure by 5%...which do you choose?" I would choose the increased RB.

I am playing tighter than most of my opponents. I am making more in RB on the hands that I am folding then I would gain in rake-savings (if lowered rake-structure) on the pots that I am winning.

A TAG-ish player on a 10-player table might be winning 7% of the pots.
Other players at the table are averaging 11% of the pots each.



[ QUOTE ]

Raked hands = 74.3%

[/ QUOTE ]


Don't they start to rake a bit lower than $20 pots though?
Do they take out $0.25 when pot hits $10?
Don't feel like checking but this would account for the discrpency of course.



[ QUOTE ]
they collect less rake on top of it.

[/ QUOTE ]


Is the rake-structure better?
Or do they just take less rake per hand on average?

If they are taking out less-rake per hand then this could just be a result of the pot-averages being smaller.


I just responded to a different thread where somebody made the mistake of assuming that one site was better than another because the average rake taken per hand is significantly less than Party's.
Well...Party's pot-averages are higher...thus they will also be raking more.


I conceded that party's rake-structure is worse also (because of the $0.50 increments every $10...and Stars does a $70 max-rake instead of $60).

Party: Pot = $51, Rake = $2.50
Stars: Pot = $69, Rake = $2.00


but just saying that Party's rake is worse because they take out more per hand is incorrect.

What if a site is getting $100 average pots on a 3/6 table?
Obviously they are going to be raking more than another site where the average pot is $17.
Even if their rake 'structure' is the same or better their 'average rake per hand' will be higher.


AP has a rep for tightish players and smallish pots. Obviously lower rake per-hand is related to this too.


I have considered absolute but I still hate the software for slowing down my computer (although not as much anymore).

I would need to set up a new acct anyway as I had previously signed-up there before RB.

Re: Party Responds - Hilarity Ensues
 

Microbob,

You may have already guessed this, but your offer is a hidden cost of going on marathon sessions above your normal game chasing specific bonii such as the cruise.

If you only EVER played 4-6 tables of $3/6 then your points requirement would surely be much lower. But once they have seen you crank out 8 tables of $10/20, or whatever it was that you did, then Bingo that is where they are going to target you.

I think these Party offers make the most sense for someone who is ready to move up in stakes from their current game. The weekly payout gives your BR a little bit of a cushion and you really need the points from the higher level to reach their targets without requiring really excessive table hours.

The key to this promotion, IMHO, is hitting the target for each of the 8 weeks, since that gives you a 1.5X weekly multiplier. Playing extra in any given week is not worth it, because it pays you at the same rate, and can only give them reason to bump your target higher in the future.

Personally I prefer Party's smaller promotions like the ticket races and the Santa pack where you earn a few hundred bucks by whoring a low limit for a much shorter time period.

Re: Party Responds - Hilarity Ensues
 

Naturally it's more hands per hour.
You are contributing more per hand also of course because it's only 5.4 average players per hand as opposed to 9.2 players per hand
(thus you are getting back a smaller percentage per hand...since, in this promo, the amount you get per hand is fixed).

My pokertracker stuff:

3/6 full = 73 hands an hour. 55% raked = 40 raked per hour
3/6 6-max = 94 hands an hour. 49% raked = 46 raked per hour


your mileage may vary.

Re: Party Responds - Hilarity Ensues
 

Bob

I got the same reply. Mine is also pretty impossible for me to hit so I too was a little disappointed they are not reworking the deal. It makes financial sense, however, for them to not change anything about their bonus program so I would have been shocked if they did.

Though you are a player who now will not play as much, many will look at these slightly unreachable goals and just put in more time at the tables. In the grand scope of things, the players who will play more outweigh the few who won't try and get any of the bonus.

This bonus, in my opinion, is overall the best they have shown for the VIP club...and I say this as someone who probably won't hit more than 1 week. Maybe they are improving?

Jon

Re: Party Responds - Hilarity Ensues
 

Here's mine:

Dear Raphael,

Thank you for contacting us.

I would like to take this opportunity to thank you for sending us your feedback on February's promotion. This will be passed on to the concerned department who will analyze your feedback and take it into consideration for future offers.

This offer has been made to you based on your level of play in the previous months. Go ahead and try your very best in achieving the targets set. Surely you will see that if you do reach the target for the 8 weeks it will all be worth it at the end of the day.

I wish you the best of luck and hope you have a nice day.

Should you require further assistance, our Customer Care Department is available 24/7 to assist you via email.

Thank you for choosing us as your online gaming site!

Alfred
VIP Club
Customer Care

Re: Party Responds - Hilarity Ensues
 

I am playing other high-RB and high-bonus sites though where I'm making upwards of 15-20 cents per hand (or more).

And I also don't get 'punished' for playing 6-max (on Party...you contribute more rake on 6-max...but you still only get credit for the same amount of points).

So if I do well on 6-max on these other sites then you can start pushing more than 20 cents per hand fairly easily.


The games at Party are still quite good though of course and 21% actually does make it tempting.


Here are a couple other factors:


1. With all these offers out there I think the games will tighten-up somewhat.
The 3/6 full tables (I don't agree with those who complain that they are too too tight at party) will have quite a few 2+2-type, whoring VIP's populating them even more now.


Games will still be decent of course, you just can't get rid of all the fish...but they probably will not be quite as fabulous.


2. I don't get anything for only getting part-way to the goal.

I value my flexibility as an online-player and don't like to think of it as HAVING to put in hours on a given day.

Example: GF and I are having a little Valentine's get-away on Monday-Tuesday.
I don't want to try to cram in my 46 hours of 6-tabling (or whatever) before we go.
I could do it of course. But why?


- I can play just 25-30 hours on my other sites if I prefer.
- probably make more in rake-back and bonuses (40-70%)
- I can play only 2 or 3 tables at a time if I felt like it (instead of practically being obligated to play 5-6 tables at all times, even when tired, to even have a chance of hitting the party bonus)


This last one is pretty important to me.
In the November VIP targets I went crazy with too many tables to try to get all my points in.

I ran bad, then I started playing really bad, and it began an awful downward spiral of losing, losing, losing...that I, at least, partly attribute to just trying to play more tables than I should have.

So this is a slightly dangerous situation for me.
chasing after the stupid carrot by playing way too much and too many tables...and consequently not playing well at all.


Online-poker is supposed to be fairly relaxing if I want it to be.


I also just resent Party essentially telling me, "you have to play 46 hours on 6 tables in order to receive your 21% return. Otherwise you get nothing."
"(oh...and btw....we're giving people we like better than you 50% or higher for only 10 hours per week)."


I have other sites saying, "Play as little or as much as you want and you'll still get your 35-70% (or higher) in RB and bonuses."


anyway, thanks for the numbers on AP.
You got me thinking again about my other semi-similar sites that I haunt.


Again, the games at Party are so fishy (plus PT and PA-HUD compatability) that I'll still be debating this decision.

Sorry for those who are bored with my ramblings on this.
I'm glad I was able to read some other things on 2+2 that helped me come to some conclusions.


I do think that for a not-very-good player like myself it is important to analyze these types of incentives in such detail so as to come to the right decision about whether it has appropriate value in your given situation or not.


Hopefully someone out there also learned a little something from my detailed analysis of 'should Bob do his party offer or not?'

Re: Party Responds - Hilarity Ensues
 

Bob, I got the exact form email response from James Wahnon. All he did was just changed the numbers. Mine is also impossible to hit and I sent them some really angry emails.
He had the audacity to tell me I 'only' had to play 4 tables of 30/60 for 30 hours a week to hit my target. [img]/images/graemlins/mad.gif[/img] Now reading your email, I get a chuckle to see he mentions you to play 6 tables for 50 hours a week. Unfreaking real.

I emailed them to let them know that high volume players are getting screwed because they took my best week and upped my target. This whole target aimed bonii has left a very bad taste in my mouth.
They have just pissed me off for the last time. I will not attempt the target when there are so many other sites out there with better bonuses for me. They've essentially lost a huge chunk of my business for at least the next 8 weeks.

Re: Party Responds - Hilarity Ensues
 

Interesting point about you wanting a higher rake structure if you're a tight player. I'm going to have to think about it offline, but except in rare circumstances, I don't think that works. Especially if you aren't collecting rake at Party. Let me work on this one.

Rake is collected at Absolute $3/6 starting at $10, they take $0.50, and another $0.50 at $20. Bonus is triggered by that first rake, so it's actually a plus. No flop, no drop though.

Average pot has been $29.81. 85.5 hands per hour. AP $3/6 6 max is not tight at all. LAA and sLAA predominate. Passives are very rare.

Re: Party Responds - Hilarity Ensues
 

Something you didn't mention, but might also want to consider, is burn-out. If you get sick of poker, you run the risk of not playing at all.

Once poker stops being fun, you might as well have a job. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: Party Responds - Hilarity Ensues
 

[ QUOTE ]
I am playing other high-RB and high-bonus sites though where I'm making upwards of 15-20 cents per hand (or more).

[/ QUOTE ]

I think you answered your own question.

I'm with you on this, I still haven't reached a point where RB can even come close to bonuses. Then again I'm a casual player who puts in maybe 10-15 hours/wk at 3/6 and 5/10 full.

Re: Party Responds - Hilarity Ensues
 

Well...you don't actually JUST want a higher rake structure.


It's just that you would prefer to get the same amount in rake-back than you would an equivilent rake-reduction.


I an just nitting against those who say, "that site's rake is 10% less....and that's just as good as 10% rake-back" because it isn't.


Obviously you don't JUST want a higher rake (especially if you aren't getting rake-back).
And you shouldn't really PREFER that a site have more rake just to get more rake-back returned.


I'm just saying that reduced rake is NOT the same as just getting rake-back.

The only way it would be the same is if they directly returned the rake to you on only the pots that YOU won.


Think of it this way:
100% rake-back would be better for you then a site that didn't have any rake at all (which would be a 100% rake-reduction I guess).


You could make a profit by just playing super-tight and collecting the full MGR of all the hands you are not involved in.


Hypothetical:
Lets say the rake on every hand on a 10-player table is $1 and you are getting 100% rake-back.
Thus, you are earning $0.10 per hand in rake-back.

After 100 hands you have won 8 pots.
So the house took away $8 in rake from those pots that you won.

but in rake-back you are earning $10 returned in the same 100 hands.

you will be doing this over and over.


as a TAG you are not winning your fair-share of the total number of pots (you are playing tighter, and winning less than 1/10 of the pots on a 10-player table).

So rake-back on the pots that everybody else is contesting is preferred to just getting reduced rake on the pots that you win.


Hope I cleared up my position on this a little bit.

Re: Party Responds - Hilarity Ensues
 

[ QUOTE ]
I am playing other high-RB and high-bonus sites though where I'm making upwards of 15-20 cents per hand (or more).

[/ QUOTE ]

Huh? Where and at what limits? Is this a propping deal?