Brown Sugar
 

I pull a Tommy and get up early on Sunday morning and head out as I couldn't sleep when I woke up at 430AM. My first thought was, "when is kickoff?, [censored], 11 hours, argh." I'm feeling a little better this afternoon. 27 days until pitchers and catchers report...

40/80 Oceans 11

Bad playing, loose, weak-postflop, woman who is stuck 7 racks, limps in EMP.

I raise Q [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]Q [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] while looking left in the CO. The button is a crazy-raisin-Asian(CRA) and I made a big mistake by not moving quickly to the seat to his left, it filled too fast as I was on a break. He looks down at his cards, he 'hitches' for a sec and goes into to hurry-chip mode, I put him on AJ, and he 3-bets.

Big blind has never folded a big blind in his life and he calls, lady moans and calls two, I cap, lady moans again, button calls, BB calls and she calls.

4 to the flop for 16.5SBs

Flop: J [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]8 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]3 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

Check to me, I bet, the CRA calls and I think he may have AK, the BB folds, the lady calls.

Turn: 9 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

Check to me, I bet, CRA raises and I put him back on AJ, lady huffs and calls two...

Your action?

Re: Brown Sugar
 

3ville : population you

Re: Brown Sugar
 

I like a 3bet since the CRA probably has the Ace of clubs and the lade a J10ish type hand.

Re: Brown Sugar
 

Well, by the way you presented this, you can 3-bet. But you probably know as well as anyone that the opportunity to put 3-bets in good with one pair in a multiway midlimit live game is rare.

So I'm skeptical.

I can't imagine just calling is giving up much since if you're ahead these guys could easily have 1/2 the deck to beat you and you could end up really sticking in a lot of money really bad if the CRA made a real hand.

Re: Brown Sugar
 

[ QUOTE ]
3ville : population you

[/ QUOTE ]

Really? I'm pretty sure the population is 3. You and two chumps.

Re: Brown Sugar
 

you might be beat. this is not a spot to 3 bet. you should call. try to showdown if at all possible.

Re: Brown Sugar
 

Mike, Joe Tall said he has him on AJ. Are you suggesting that the lady has him beat?

Seriously, I've always felt that you've got to believe in your reads. If both players have exactly what we think they have - AJ and JT, one or both with a club draw - we're leaving a lot of money on the table by not 3betting. Additionally, some guys like to raise this turn intending to check behind on the river. Failing to 3bet here could cost us our % of $320. Our % should be around 70-75%. Also, if you feel comfortable folding to a 4bet, I don't see why you should fear 3betting.

Re: Brown Sugar
 

folding to a 4 bet might be bad. lagasian could have a set or something in which case hero has too many outs to fold. lady could have a draw but she could also have a flush or set or straight or two pair. all in the range. she could also have something like KcJx or a T or or or. and lagasian could have all sorts of hands including Acx hands.

what im trying to explain is their hand ranges are way too wide given the action and the board. so folding is an error, but so is 3 betting. get to showdown and dont be surprised if you lose, but definitely dont fold either.

Re: Brown Sugar
 

lol, i left that game an hour or two before you got there. i guess the lady had made a comeback to only be stuck 7 racks.

Re: Brown Sugar
 

btw, if the lady is who i think it is, there is nearly 0% chance she has you beat here. asian guy: pretty good chance. get to showdown. dont be afraid to overcall if needed.

Re: Brown Sugar
 

[ QUOTE ]
btw, if the lady is who i think it is, there is nearly 0% chance she has you beat here.

[/ QUOTE ]

I've only played this game like 20 hours so far, but I can think of only one person that's going to be stuck 7 racks in this game and I completely agree with this.

Unfortunately I also agree that I just want to get to showdown here against the other guy. I'm not sold that he's got AJ and if he 3bets we've got to call and then the pot is huge on the river and we've got an overpair and we convince ourselves to put in another bet, while calling down costs 2 bets and doesn't seem like it is that bad.

Now I wish I went on Saturday and played again so I could meet the great Joe Tall.

Re: Brown Sugar
 

treeeeeee bets

Re: Brown Sugar
 

I think you should call the turn and bet a non club/ace river.

Re: Brown Sugar
 

[ QUOTE ]
I put him on AJ

[/ QUOTE ]

easy raise then.

Re: Brown Sugar
 

I had a chance to think about this one JT but still think what I said on AIM applies. Basically, although your read places him on AJ and the woman (Brenda I think based on your description) on 2 cards, you have to obviously include broader ranges and you are drawing way live the times that you are behind. The turn play in this game is going to be pretty honest and your hand is much easier to read than theirs given your preflop cap. I very much doubt that CRA expects you to fold here so you are behind most of the time.

As an aside, the board texture is pretty interesting with respect to your flush outs in that 3/9 of them will be good for you. The T gives you the absolute stones and the A and K with give you the second nuts. That in addition to your straight outs and trip outs make folding to a 4 bet insane.

Call and get to SD if you can.

Re: Brown Sugar
 

3 bet if either you don't mind if it's 4 bet or you're folding to one. Neither of those scenario's is the case here.

It seems like many of the suggestions to 3 bet don't consider the possibility of a 4 bet, how we'd like it and how it unnecessarily increases the cost of a hand we want to SD.

Then again, reads are everything in live poker. So the OP knows best if he has the best hand.

Re: Brown Sugar
 

Call and donk the river.

- Jim

Re: Brown Sugar
 

Call this down and hope a club doesn't come on the river.
Me thinks button has AcJx, but you could be beat here. And a lot of cards are bad for you on the river.

Re: Brown Sugar
 

I'm just calling here and showing down my hand unless it's 2 cold to me. the "huffing lady" probably has some kind of Jx hand and the LAG asian has god knows what. he is a LAG asian!

Re: Brown Sugar
 

[ QUOTE ]
Call and donk the river.

- Jim

[/ QUOTE ]

while this reduces the chances of you being raised by a worse hand, you lose the equity from the likely drawing hand in the SB. also the button is probably betting most rivers anyways, unless he has a the lone A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]. basically, i like this less than 3 betting the turn and i like just calling and checking the river the best.

Re: Brown Sugar
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Call and donk the river.

- Jim

[/ QUOTE ]

while this reduces the chances of you being raised by a worse hand, you lose the equity from the likely drawing hand in the SB. also the button is probably betting most rivers anyways, unless he has a the lone A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]. basically, i like this less than 3 betting the turn and i like just calling and checking the river the best.

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: Brown Sugar
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Call and donk the river.

- Jim

[/ QUOTE ]

while this reduces the chances of you being raised by a worse hand (or a better one!) , you lose the equity from the likely drawing hand in the SB. also the button is probably betting most rivers anyways, unless he has a the lone A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]. basically, i like this less than 3 betting the turn and i like just calling and checking the river the best.

[/ QUOTE ]

too late to edit my post, but i edited it anyways!

RESULTS
 

Thank you for your responses.

When the turn was raised, my first though was 3-town, then the lady called two cold and I thought of how bad I've been running, and just called, planning to donk most rivers if she misses.

The river came: J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

She open folded, I checked, CRA bet, I thought for a bit, looked at the pot, and called.

CRA had A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] and dragged it. I missed two bets on the turn.