it seems like everytime i cold 4 it with aces...
 

i get the sickest flops!

villain is pyrho, seems like a decent reg and rus at 22.5/18.5/3.19. we don't tangle all too much but i don't think he gives me a lot of respect, or anyone really for that matter. he seems like the type to me that tries to win more than his fair share of pots and make weird bluffs or put someone on the 1 hand he beats to justify a call where in reality it really isn't justified. anyway, on the flop my thought were i could never get called by a worse hand, i think he folds AK to my 4-bet pf so that leaves big pairs or some type of goofy suited hand he's putting a move on me with. is the turn a very easy fold? is the river a very easy fold? i was kinda lost with this hand but i feel like it can maybe generate some interesting discussion. so, thoughts?

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $4 BB (6 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

SB ($400)
BB ($382)
UTG ($507)
MP ($638.30)
Hero ($991.75)
Button ($567.35)

Preflop: Hero is CO with A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
<font color="#CC3333">UTG raises to $12</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP raises to $40</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to $115</font>, <font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, UTG folds, MP calls $75.

Flop: ($248) J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
MP checks, Hero checks.

Turn: ($248) K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">MP bets $150</font>, Hero calls $150.

River: ($548) 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">MP bets $373.3 (All-In)</font>, Hero calls $373.30.

Re: it seems like everytime i cold 4 it with aces...
 

I'm not folding here

Re: it seems like everytime i cold 4 it with aces...
 

well played.

Re: it seems like everytime i cold 4 it with aces...
 

I bet the flop but this is fine, obv im not folding river.

Re: it seems like everytime i cold 4 it with aces...
 

As played, I think u have to call river. since you didn't bet flop he may just be trying to rep the flush or may have QxQd and figure you'd have bet w/Ad. Of course JJ is v. likely too. Any knowledge of when he shoves? w/nuts or bluffing too?

Re: it seems like everytime i cold 4 it with aces...
 

he's got a boat here a whole lot, but i think he's bluffing just enough to make your line okay (or maybe value pushing the Qd, though that seems suspect). oh well, prob have to call, i'd usually bet the flop and be okay to get it in there, but since you checked and he takes you off of sets and boats he may be exponentially more likely to try and bluff you. anyways, we have some history neither of us like to fold one [censored] bit, so we tend to do weird stuff and he's CRed me on the river a few times.

Re: it seems like everytime i cold 4 it with aces...
 

I think you played this perfectly.

Re: it seems like everytime i cold 4 it with aces...
 

what why cant you fold this river, i would

Re: it seems like everytime i cold 4 it with aces...
 

[ QUOTE ]
what why cant you fold this river, i would

[/ QUOTE ]

he bluffs some, and hero's hand doesn't really look like anything. how can hero have the A of diamonds herE?

Re: it seems like everytime i cold 4 it with aces...
 

he bluffs what? guy reraised an UTG raiser preflop and then called a cold 4-bet. what is he bluffing with? he's never bluffing.

Re: it seems like everytime i cold 4 it with aces...
 

[ QUOTE ]
he bluffs what? guy reraised an UTG raiser preflop and then called a cold 4-bet. what is he bluffing with? he's never bluffing.

[/ QUOTE ]

yea but what do we have

Re: it seems like everytime i cold 4 it with aces...
 

i tanked for like a minute+ on the turn before calling, but in retrospect i think the turn is a very close fold. also, i agree with krantz that the river should cut down his bluffing frequency infinitely. seriously, what hand can i have that he thinks i will fold on the river? does he really think i'm calling qq on the turn? i guess i could see him bluffing me off an oddly played ak with qq or the other aces, or bluffing me off exactly what i have with qq. but his turn bet doesn't make sense then. i also think the chances of him v-betting this river with QdQx is extremely low, and i think he doesn't bet that on the turn either.

Re: it seems like everytime i cold 4 it with aces...
 

[ QUOTE ]

he bluffs some, and hero's hand doesn't really look like anything. how can hero have the A of diamonds herE?

[/ QUOTE ]

um this statement is dumb. hero can very easily have the Ad. but he doesn't often, which is why this is a call.

Re: it seems like everytime i cold 4 it with aces...
 

its more important to consider what he has here than what we have here --- its not a call. it could be a call if OP were playing insanely aggressively, or say if UTG was a huge LAG and villain were constantly iso-ing him, but that really just isn't going on here.

Re: it seems like everytime i cold 4 it with aces...
 

as played i think river is a fold, but I hate the flop check.

Re: it seems like everytime i cold 4 it with aces...
 

i also think ppl are hugely underestimating how different the dynamic is in this hand due to it being a 4-bet pot as opposed to a 3-bet pot or single raised pot.

Re: it seems like everytime i cold 4 it with aces...
 

[ QUOTE ]
its more important to consider what he has here than what we have here --- its not a call. it could be a call if OP were playing insanely aggressively, or say if UTG was a huge LAG and villain were constantly iso-ing him, but that really just isn't going on here.

[/ QUOTE ]
why cna't this be value with Qd close to as often as JJJ? (this is not including bluffs even in his range) even if he is ALWAYS betting for value, which is clearly not the case, it is very close.

Re: it seems like everytime i cold 4 it with aces...
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

he bluffs some, and hero's hand doesn't really look like anything. how can hero have the A of diamonds herE?

[/ QUOTE ]

um this statement is dumb. hero can very easily have the Ad. but he doesn't often, which is why this is a call.

[/ QUOTE ]

that seems very contradictory. I don't think hero can have the Ad becuase villian would think that he would bet the flop with it almost always, AA with Ad seems like a flop bet to almost everyone (no one is tricky at these levels). KKK and JJJ are a flop bet to everyone too, so from villian's point of view, we can't really have anything. Maybe a black AA that gave up and stubbornly called the turn? if our 4 betting range is standard, nothing makes sense postflop.

from his turn and river line i think he has a boat, i already said that. But in this case i have a little bit of experience with villian, and he seems to have a move or two and could be tricky. if he deduces that hero can't have Ad here (which i said he could) and that he is unlikely to have a full house, what else can call this river? since he thinks all of that, he can ALSO push QQ with the Q of diamonds.

i'm not saying this is a call, i tink it's close and would depend almost exclusively on history.

Re: it seems like everytime i cold 4 it with aces...
 

id say it COULD be QQ with the diamond (especially so given the flop check from OP) but far, far less frequently than it's KK or JJ

Re: it seems like everytime i cold 4 it with aces...
 

[ QUOTE ]
he bluffs what? guy reraised an UTG raiser preflop and then called a cold 4-bet. what is he bluffing with? he's never bluffing.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree, but I prob woulda just bet the flop and gotten money in with at least an 11 outer

Re: it seems like everytime i cold 4 it with aces...
 

i bet the flop too

Re: it seems like everytime i cold 4 it with aces...
 

I really dont see why the Qd would shove this river. I mean theoretically he could have it and play it this way but that would be REALLY bad.

Re: it seems like everytime i cold 4 it with aces...
 

Bet flop and get it in there if he pushes. As played river is a fold as far as i am concerned.

Re: it seems like everytime i cold 4 it with aces...
 

This could easily be trips for MP on the flop, hoping ud bet hed push, TURN makes full house has to build pot, if hes done this with kkkk then hes sick [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img], RIVER 8d he hoped makes your AA nut flush…

PS my nan plays on stars

Re: it seems like everytime i cold 4 it with aces...
 

why are we betting this flop ever, when even QdQx folds pretty often

why are we calling this river, we beat AK making a truly [censored] bluff? QdQx that has nothing better to do? after we call the turn, our worst possible hand is QdQx *maybe*, and our hand is 1 rank up from that, so while calling's not quite setting money on fire...I hope his 3 bet, call a 4 bet range is super light

Re: it seems like everytime i cold 4 it with aces...
 

[ QUOTE ]
that seems very contradictory. I don't think hero can have the Ad becuase villian would think that he would bet the flop with it almost always, AA with Ad seems like a flop bet to almost everyone (no one is tricky at these levels).

[/ QUOTE ]

you don't have to be tricky not to bet the Ad on a KJx board when somebody 3 bet and called a 4 bet PF, it's practically standard.

Re: it seems like everytime i cold 4 it with aces...
 

before i thought a flop bet was probably +ev but checking was better. now i'm convinced a flop bet is truely awful.

Re: it seems like everytime i cold 4 it with aces...
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
that seems very contradictory. I don't think hero can have the Ad becuase villian would think that he would bet the flop with it almost always, AA with Ad seems like a flop bet to almost everyone (no one is tricky at these levels).

[/ QUOTE ]

you don't have to be tricky not to bet the Ad on a KJx board when somebody 3 bet and called a 4 bet PF, it's practically standard.

[/ QUOTE ]

The way these games play and since a 4-bet bluff would often c-bet this flop, AdAx is a standard flop bet. It probably isn't for me, but I play more passively than people think. Also, I'm going by what a standard read would be. A standard read would be that any hand with the A of diamonds would be happy to bet 175-200 and call a push with at worst a decent amount of outs.

Re: it seems like everytime i cold 4 it with aces...
 

your right, the more I look at this the better the check looks, trips push to a bet and we no your not laying this down, if you have him beat then checkings sweet

That said I no id bet the flop in the moment

Re: it seems like everytime i cold 4 it with aces...
 

I would bet this flop like 90% of the time. His range is {QQ+,AK} IMO and there are only 3 combinations out of 15 that you're behind. Even if JJ is in his range, there are only 6 of 18 hands you're behind. and when you are behind you still have the flush draw.

If he happened to flop a flush at least you'll get it all in with two cards to come.

Re: it seems like everytime i cold 4 it with aces...
 

Why would we ever bet the flop here? If he has a better hand he's never folding if he has a worse hand he has very few outs to improve.

Re: it seems like everytime i cold 4 it with aces...
 

[ QUOTE ]
I would bet this flop like 90% of the time. His range is {QQ+,AK} IMO and there are only 3 combinations out of 15 that you're behind. Even if JJ is in his range, there are only 6 of 18 hands you're behind. and when you are behind you still have the flush draw.

[/ QUOTE ]

okay, you're almost there...all you're missing is which worse hands call

[ QUOTE ]
If he happened to flop a flush at least you'll get it all in with two cards to come.

[/ QUOTE ]

oh ok, never mind, way to totally ignore the first half of your own post

Re: it seems like everytime i cold 4 it with aces...
 

[ QUOTE ]
Why would we ever bet the flop here? If he has a better hand he's never folding if he has a worse hand he has very few outs to improve.

[/ QUOTE ]

right, but the thing is that after checking the flop (vs this player imo) you have to now be willing to stack off, especially after ytou make the best possible flush. if we're going to fold, i think it shoudl b the tuen and not the river.

Re: it seems like everytime i cold 4 it with aces...
 

The only advantage of betting here is the QQ situation

Hes not calling with AK no [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

Re: it seems like everytime i cold 4 it with aces...
 

Bet flop. Fold river.

Re: it seems like everytime i cold 4 it with aces...
 

I would say his hand range is KK/JJ/QQ in that order.

Re: it seems like everytime i cold 4 it with aces...
 

I don't know have observant villain is here but is he aware jj basically=22 here.

Re: it seems like everytime i cold 4 it with aces...
 

Why can't he have AK? Why does everyone think this villian is smart and not impulsive?

Re: it seems like everytime i cold 4 it with aces...
 

This is a sick hand. I think I like a flop bet though and call a shove. We've got like 11 outs if he has a set with two cards to come, and it's reasonable to think he stacks off with AK/QQ here also. As played I think I would have folded the turn. Stuff like AK/JJ are definitely in his range here, and he probably won't even be betting QQ here on the turn. But if I called the turn I'm definitely calling the river, though. We're only behind two hands here really, one of them just is unlikely (KKKK) and the other while certainly possible (JJJ) we just have to take our chances IMO.

Also OP's bit in the beggining about him not respecting anybody's play and just in general having FPS makes this a call on the river IMO.

Re: it seems like everytime i cold 4 it with aces...
 

art, ak is arguably consistent with his pf/flop/turn play...but assuming he is pushing riv with ak here is ridic.

ap, in the heat of the moment i pretty much insta-called riv but like i said before i think the turn is a close fold and the riv is a not close fold. i really can't beat anything, thinking he will have a weird bluff here is very wishful thinking. like i said before, i think people(and myself at the time) are underestimating how different the dynamic for this hand is due to it being a 4-bet pot rahter than a 3-bet or single raised pot.

eagles, i assume ur talking about pf, and i of course agree.

adanthar, LOL, i've always liked your posts but this was one of the funniest imo.