KQs against an unknown raiser. Preflop question
 

Right now I have 15 hands from this guy, so I assume that at play time, this must have been his first hand he raised with, and essentially no really useful stats.

PokerStars 0.10/0.20 Hold'em (8 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
<font color="#CC3333">UTG raises</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, Hero ???

Looks like an auto iso-3-bet?

Re: KQs against an unknown raiser. Preflop question
 

:grunch:
it does to me.

I spose cold-calling would be a reasonable play as well.

with KQs you might want the additional players in the pot as part of the appeal of KQs IMO is that they're a couple of big, tough SCs. so you might want to play them in a multi-way pot, in which case coldcalling might be better. that is, of course, assuming the 3bet will cause other players to fold more than a cold-call would.

that said,a 3bet here is entirely sensible.

Re: KQs against an unknown raiser. Preflop question
 

Auto fold.

Re: KQs against an unknown raiser. Preflop question
 

Scary Tiger is right. If you Pokerstoved this you would see that you are more than a 60:40 dog to any UTG raiser with a decent range.

Re: KQs against an unknown raiser. Preflop question
 

Yeah, agreed.

Don't know what I was thinking. I cold called, half the table came for the ride (well, that's like 5*wrong equals right) and I folded on a very uncooperative flop.

One of those spots where your new aquired aggressiveness plays a trick on you, I guess. [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

Re: KQs against an unknown raiser. Preflop question
 

[ QUOTE ]
Scary Tiger is right. If you Pokerstoved this you would see that you are more than a 60:40 dog to any UTG raiser with a decent range.

[/ QUOTE ]
That doesnt mean you cant call here.
First you are putting less than 40% into the pot.
Secondly, you have implied odds postflop.

Re: KQs against an unknown raiser. Preflop question
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Scary Tiger is right. If you Pokerstoved this you would see that you are more than a 60:40 dog to any UTG raiser with a decent range.

[/ QUOTE ]
That doesnt mean you cant call here.
First you are putting less than 40% into the pot.
Secondly, you have implied odds postflop.

[/ QUOTE ]

you can't assume the blinds are going to come along or anyone else will without reads we didn't get from op.

Re: KQs against an unknown raiser. Preflop question
 

Ok. Worst case scenario: Noone is calling except us.
Then we put 2SB into the pot of 5.5SB, 5SB after rake.
2/5 = 40%.
No?

Re: KQs against an unknown raiser. Preflop question
 

how loose is this table? If people cold call a lot would anyone be upset with the forbidden cold call to get this thing multiway?

3-betting is probably standard against an unknown. You have a very strong hand, but it could be easily dominated.

Re: KQs against an unknown raiser. Preflop question
 

If the table seems even reasonably loose, i am happy to coldcall here.

Without some reads, i don't like 3betting.

Without some reads but knowing that this is .10/.20, i don't like folding.

Re: KQs against an unknown raiser. Preflop question
 

Oh my, now it's getting in that dreaded area of ifs, whens and maybes again... [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[ QUOTE ]
I cold called, half the table came for the ride (well, that's like 5*wrong equals right) and I folded on a very uncooperative flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

Just to get this right: I'm cold calling here because I have a strong hand that plays especially well in multiway pots. Thus, while I might be just about break even against your usual .1/.2 guy and might even have some postflop skill edge (who knows...), 3betting would likely leave me HU with a hand that is often dominated and therefore hard to play post flop without a read on the guy.
However, by just calling, giving everyone the chance to come along, I give up a lot of my TP equity for an increased flush and straight equity.

Right?

Re: KQs against an unknown raiser. Preflop question
 

[ QUOTE ]
Oh my, now it's getting in that dreaded area of ifs, whens and maybes again... [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[ QUOTE ]
I cold called, half the table came for the ride (well, that's like 5*wrong equals right) and I folded on a very uncooperative flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

Just to get this right: I'm cold calling here because I have a strong hand that plays especially well in multiway pots. Thus, while I might be just about break even against your usual .1/.2 guy and might even have some postflop skill edge (who knows...), 3betting would likely leave me HU with a hand that is often dominated and therefore hard to play post flop without a read on the guy.
However, by just calling, giving everyone the chance to come along, I give up a lot of my TP equity for an increased flush and straight equity.

Right?

[/ QUOTE ]

I like it.

Re: KQs against an unknown raiser. Preflop question
 

How about this - aggressive UTG raises, 3 people cold-call and you are in CO with A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]
Raise, call or fold?

Re: KQs against an unknown raiser. Preflop question
 

[ QUOTE ]
How about this - aggressive UTG raises, 3 people cold-call and you are in CO with A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]
Raise, call or fold?

[/ QUOTE ]

Raise. There was a hand, just yesterday or so, like this.

Same concept: You're likely behind UTG, but the others make more than up for that.

Re: KQs against an unknown raiser. Preflop question
 

[ QUOTE ]
Ok. Worst case scenario: Noone is calling except us.
Then we put 2SB into the pot of 5.5SB, 5SB after rake.
2/5 = 40%.
No?

[/ QUOTE ]

While you are mathematically correct (I think [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]), would you really want to go into the hand break-even, and possible be WB to a dominating hand?

Easy fold. Better spot coming along shortly.

Re: KQs against an unknown raiser. Preflop question
 

[ QUOTE ]
How about this - aggressive UTG raises, 3 people cold-call and you are in CO with A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]
Raise, call or fold?

[/ QUOTE ]

I'd call.

I realise we probably have a slight equity edge for every bet that goes in PF. But with this hand it a very definite IN or OUT depending on the flop- so I'm seeing that before investing too much.

Re: KQs against an unknown raiser. Preflop question
 

I like to 3-bet this to isloate heads up with position. KQs is a pretty good hand and I've got position. I have no reason to think UTG is a particularly tight raiser, plus I've got position.

3-bet and see what happens.Woory about AK/AA/KK/QQ when you get capped preflop.

Re: KQs against an unknown raiser. Preflop question
 

Take Ed Miller's advice. Do not CC an UTG raise when no else has CC in front of you. You need at least AK to play here unless you know that UTG has loose raising standards. If you are going to play you should 3-bet.

Re: KQs against an unknown raiser. Preflop question
 

Im folding KQs in the OP and Im calling AJs in freteloos spot. There aint many (textbook) hands that I cold call with in that spot but AJs is one of them. I'd also be looking at the VPIP and PFR stats of said opponents to see if I see anything that warrants anything different.

Re: KQs against an unknown raiser. Preflop question
 

If you go by SSHE, the pf raising range for early position is TT+,AJs+,AQo+. These are the PS results for AJs against the raiser's range.

349,310,016 games 0.005 secs 69,862,003,200 games/sec

Board:
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 67.231% 63.39% 03.84% 221441676 13401630.00 { TT+, AJs+, AQo+ }

Hand 1: 32.769% 28.93% 03.84% 101065080 13401630.00 { AJs }

The problem with AJs is that you are dominated by so much of the raiser's range. The suitedness is not worth the complete 6% (chance of making a flush) of equity because of the times you will not be able to correctly call a bet on the flop. Even if you get a few players to follow you into the pot, you will not achieve your fair share of equity.

If you have reads that the UTG raiser will raise with a very large range of hands I believe the best thing to do is to 3-bet. Fold out an AQ or even another AJ. Do not give the BB great odds to play his hand. You are better off getting the dead money.

Re: KQs against an unknown raiser. Preflop question
 

interesting reading this one.
I'm rather surprised at so many recommendations to fold, but it does make sense. Especailly cos as someone said, 'there's another better hand coming shortly' or something like that.

If this weren't raised already, I'm assuming Hero would either limp or raise (maybe not?) pre-flop. I know the SSHE advice is to play *extra* tight if it's been raised in front of you, but it also says that if you've limped in, you should generally pay the extra bet if someone raises after you limp.

by somewhat stretched logic, doesn't the same sorta (but not exactly) apply here? if hero was going to pay to limp in for one bet anyway, why not cold-call? after all, SSHE says it's okay to cold-call every now and again.

i realise there's a big diff between money you *would have* put in the pot and money you *did* put in the pot.

but maybe we can assign a 'value' to each hand PF...AKs is usually worth 3bets or a cap, AA is obviously a cap, and KQ is, say, worth 2 bets preflop, is it worth a cold-call here?

dunno, like i said, this logic is a bit shaky. but it just seemed a bit passive to fold KQs to a raise when it might actually be worth a raise itself...

or maybe i'm overestimating how good a hand KQs is.

Re: KQs against an unknown raiser. Preflop question
 

marty, since no-one else jumped in I will.

limping in and then calling another raise behind you is different to calling two bets cold. Also raising KQs when it is limped to you is different to calling two bets cold. Simply put, all other things being equal, people generally raise because they think they have a good hand and this in turn is likely to devalue your hand if your hand isnt a monster.

I dont really like the idea of assigning a value to a hand preflop for the sake of it. It is much much better to assign a value of your hand by considering all the action that has occured in the hand so far, your reads, the table image, your image etc etc. Once you have determined your hand value you can decide what is the optimum play.

ozi

Re: KQs against an unknown raiser. Preflop question
 

muck.... later it may be a 3-bet iso.. but for now, I muck.

Re: KQs against an unknown raiser. Preflop question
 

"grunch"

I cold call. While this is a strong hand it's still only King high right now. Might as well not put any more money in the pot until you see the flop.