how hard is the LSAT?
 

With the recent changes in online poker, I've decided to apply to law school. Yesterday was the last day to register for the February exam, and I did so, but I don't really know much about the LSAT or law school. I'm a senior in college who will graduate in the spring. I have a few friends who aren't as intelligent as I am and studied very hard for the LSAT, and they scored in the mid 150s.

Anyway, any tips from anybody on what to study?, or getting into law school in general? I know I have a couple stressful weeks ahead of me, but any tips would be appreciated.

Re: how hard is the LSAT?
 

Taking a prep course like Kaplan will probably help. The LSAT score is the biggest component of a law school application. It's worth spending a few extra bucks to do it right. It's harder than the GMAT but easier than the MCAT.

Re: how hard is the LSAT?
 

Why do you want to go if you admittedly know nothing about it? Do you want to be a lawyer? The #1 rule IMO is to be sure you want to be an attorney or do something else that requires a JD before you decide to go to law school.

Re: how hard is the LSAT?
 

(this probably should get moved to 'the dorm')

You have to take a LSAT class. It will help emmensely.

I think taking the test in Feb will be a mistake unless you want to commit yourself to test prep as a full time job for the next month.

I have several schoolmates who have taken the test. All are brilliant. They all studied for the test and their scores ranged from 160-179 but it was not easy. Everyone except for the guy with the 179 said that the test prep classes improved their score by up to 10 points.

A lot of very smart kids with great grades got 165s and eliminated their chance of getting into a top flight school.

Look at the test ranges for the schools that you might want to apply to. If you want to go to a top school it is worthwhile to put off your test and bust your balls with test prep and try to get a 170.

Good luck,
Steve

Re: how hard is the LSAT?
 

[ QUOTE ]
With the recent changes in online poker, I've decided to apply to law school. Yesterday was the last day to register for the February exam, and I did so, but I don't really know much about the LSAT or law school. I'm a senior in college who will graduate in the spring. I have a few friends who aren't as intelligent as I am and studied very hard for the LSAT, and they scored in the mid 150s.

Anyway, any tips from anybody on what to study?, or getting into law school in general? I know I have a couple stressful weeks ahead of me, but any tips would be appreciated.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not that great of scores, actually pretty medicore to be honest.

A 152 is 50th percentile and you only need to get ~61 out of 101.

(note how each point is a huge jump)

A 157 is 75th percentile and you need ~71 out of 101

If i were you my goal would be:

164, 90th percentile ~82 correct out of 101

Re: how hard is the LSAT?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
With the recent changes in online poker, I've decided to apply to law school. Yesterday was the last day to register for the February exam, and I did so, but I don't really know much about the LSAT or law school. I'm a senior in college who will graduate in the spring. I have a few friends who aren't as intelligent as I am and studied very hard for the LSAT, and they scored in the mid 150s.

Anyway, any tips from anybody on what to study?, or getting into law school in general? I know I have a couple stressful weeks ahead of me, but any tips would be appreciated.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not that great of scores, actually pretty medicore to be honest.

A 152 is 50th percentile and you only need to get ~61 out of 101.

(note how each point is a huge jump)

A 157 is 75th percentile and you need ~71 out of 101

If i were you my goal would be:

164, 90th percentile ~82 correct out of 101

[/ QUOTE ]

thanks for the responses.

by 164 and 82 of 101, you mean raw score of
81/101 converts to 164, correct?

Re: how hard is the LSAT?
 

My knowledge isn't current, as I took the LSAT 21 years ago. I took a course, which was useful only for the course materials -- the classes themselves were taught to the lowest common denominator, which was very low.

My advice: get the materials and work on solving problems continuously between now and the exam. The quality of law school that you attend really matters.

Re: how hard is the LSAT?
 

[ QUOTE ]


You have to take a LSAT class. It will help emmensely.



[/ QUOTE ]

We're getting leveled here, right?

Taking a course will help a lot. If you don't take a course, at least take a ton of practice tests.

Re: how hard is the LSAT?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
With the recent changes in online poker, I've decided to apply to law school. Yesterday was the last day to register for the February exam, and I did so, but I don't really know much about the LSAT or law school. I'm a senior in college who will graduate in the spring. I have a few friends who aren't as intelligent as I am and studied very hard for the LSAT, and they scored in the mid 150s.

Anyway, any tips from anybody on what to study?, or getting into law school in general? I know I have a couple stressful weeks ahead of me, but any tips would be appreciated.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not that great of scores, actually pretty medicore to be honest.

A 152 is 50th percentile and you only need to get ~61 out of 101.

(note how each point is a huge jump)

A 157 is 75th percentile and you need ~71 out of 101

If i were you my goal would be:

164, 90th percentile ~82 correct out of 101

[/ QUOTE ]

thanks for the responses.

by 164 and 82 of 101, you mean raw score of
81/101 converts to 164, correct?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, also unlike the SAT's you dont get points taken off, so if you are out of time and have questions left just guess since it can only help.

Re: how hard is the LSAT?
 

Just take a bunch of practice tests to see how it works. If you are smart, LSAT will be easy.

Re: how hard is the LSAT?
 

[ QUOTE ]
raw score of
81/101 converts to 164, correct?

[/ QUOTE ]

Each test has its own raw score -> final score conversion chart. 82/101 might be a 164 on one test but a 161 on another. You need to get a book of old real LSATs, and look at the various scoring charts. I believe they put each test's score conversion chart at the end of the test.

My advice, FWIW, is to buy every available *REAL* LSAT (avoid wasting your time with Princeton Review's or Kaplan's or whomever's own simulated LSATs), and take them under real conditions. One of the biggest factors in the LSAT is endurance. Get your stamina up.

If you're going to take a review course, take Testmasters. Their method is superior to PR's and Kaplan's, and all of their instructors scored in the 98th or 99th percentile.

Re: how hard is the LSAT?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
raw score of
81/101 converts to 164, correct?

[/ QUOTE ]

Each test has its own raw score -> final score conversion chart. 82/101 might be a 164 on one test but a 161 on another. You need to get a book of old real LSATs, and look at the various scoring charts. I believe they put each test's score conversion chart at the end of the test.

My advice, FWIW, is to buy every available *REAL* LSAT (avoid wasting your time with Princeton Review's or Kaplan's or whomever's own simulated LSATs), and take them under real conditions. One of the biggest factors in the LSAT is endurance. Get your stamina up.

If you're going to take a review course, take Testmasters. Their method is superior to PR's and Kaplan's, and all of their instructors scored in the 98th or 99th percentile.

[/ QUOTE ]

Any more info on what I should be purchasing to review? I've only got 20 days, and basically know nothing about the LSAT. You say not to purchase Kaplan's or Princeton Review, but I guess I don't know what exactly I should use instead.

Also, I've looked at review courses, and as far as I can tell have little options for formal instruction during the next 20 days.

Re: how hard is the LSAT?
 

Probably wasn't entirely clear. I wasn't commenting on the PR or Kaplan guides. I'm saying don't use the PR or Kaplan practice tests themselves--use the real previous LSATs that were released by LSAC. I would reccomend the PR guide over the Kaplan guide.

Re: how hard is the LSAT?
 

Don't go to law school unless you want to be a lawyer. I'm learning this the hard way right now. If you just want to be a student again for a while, apply to grad school. It is much less expensive.

Re: how hard is the LSAT?
 

[ QUOTE ]
With the recent changes in online poker, I've decided to apply to law school. Yesterday was the last day to register for the February exam, and I did so, but I don't really know much about the LSAT or law school. I'm a senior in college who will graduate in the spring. I have a few friends who aren't as intelligent as I am and studied very hard for the LSAT, and they scored in the mid 150s.

Anyway, any tips from anybody on what to study?, or getting into law school in general? I know I have a couple stressful weeks ahead of me, but any tips would be appreciated.

[/ QUOTE ]

I took the LSATs last February. I wouldn't recommend the classes if you only have a month left. The best book I found was Kaplan's LSAT 180, which has the hardest set of questions around, if you're aiming for the high scores. I got a 176, if you have any other questions ask me.

Re: how hard is the LSAT?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
raw score of
81/101 converts to 164, correct?

[/ QUOTE ]

Each test has its own raw score -> final score conversion chart. 82/101 might be a 164 on one test but a 161 on another. You need to get a book of old real LSATs, and look at the various scoring charts. I believe they put each test's score conversion chart at the end of the test.

My advice, FWIW, is to buy every available *REAL* LSAT (avoid wasting your time with Princeton Review's or Kaplan's or whomever's own simulated LSATs), and take them under real conditions. One of the biggest factors in the LSAT is endurance. Get your stamina up.

If you're going to take a review course, take Testmasters. Their method is superior to PR's and Kaplan's, and all of their instructors scored in the 98th or 99th percentile.

[/ QUOTE ]

Never in my life can i belie that without seeing that myself. Maybe in 1963 it might have been 161 or whatever, but i am confident you wont be able to find a 3 point swing.

Re: how hard is the LSAT?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
With the recent changes in online poker, I've decided to apply to law school. Yesterday was the last day to register for the February exam, and I did so, but I don't really know much about the LSAT or law school. I'm a senior in college who will graduate in the spring. I have a few friends who aren't as intelligent as I am and studied very hard for the LSAT, and they scored in the mid 150s.

Anyway, any tips from anybody on what to study?, or getting into law school in general? I know I have a couple stressful weeks ahead of me, but any tips would be appreciated.

[/ QUOTE ]

I took the LSATs last February. I wouldn't recommend the classes if you only have a month left. The best book I found was Kaplan's LSAT 180, which has the hardest set of questions around, if you're aiming for the high scores. I got a 176, if you have any other questions ask me.

[/ QUOTE ]

what schools are you considering?

Re: how hard is the LSAT?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]


You have to take a LSAT class. It will help emmensely.



[/ QUOTE ]

We're getting leveled here, right?

Taking a course will help a lot. If you don't take a course, at least take a ton of practice tests.

[/ QUOTE ]

lol

Uhhhh... yea... of course I was leveling...

I [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] OOT

Re: how hard is the LSAT?
 

This is a bit of a hijack, but anyway, if I had something in the range of a 3.5-3.6 gpa at a crappy state school and a low 170s LSAT score, what range of schools would I be looking at?

Re: how hard is the LSAT?
 

[ QUOTE ]
This is a bit of a hijack, but anyway, if I had something in the range of a 3.5-3.6 gpa at a crappy state school and a low 170s LSAT score, what range of schools would I be looking at?

[/ QUOTE ]

Use the LSAC calcualtor. Plug in your GPA and LSAT score and it'll tell you your % chance of admissions at every school, based on last year's admissions cycle.

Re: how hard is the LSAT?
 

http://www.lawschoolstats.com/cgi-bin/cgi/index2.cgi

your looking very good

Re: how hard is the LSAT?
 

[ QUOTE ]

Don't go to law school unless you want to be a lawyer. I'm learning this the hard way right now. If you just want to be a student again for a while, apply to grad school. It is much less expensive.

[/ QUOTE ]

QFT. But you'll ignore this advice, like we all did, and you won't be happy about having ignored it. I wish I'd gone for a Philosophy PhD instead.

p.s. And if you do actually want to be a lawyer, reconsider.

Re: how hard is the LSAT?
 

[ QUOTE ]
http://www.lawschoolstats.com/cgi-bin/cgi/index2.cgi

your looking very good

[/ QUOTE ]

That calculator uses LSAC's data, but it doesn't have LSAC's updated info for every school. Just use the LSAC calculator itself.

Re: how hard is the LSAT?
 

I honestly can't say I've ever met a lawyer that was happy being a lawyer, and recommended it to me. Seriously, not a single one. Its the single biggest reason I've never gone, after thinking I wanted to most of the way through college. I'm nearly 31 now, and I doubt I'll ever go. I make just as much in the staffing industry, work half the hours, and hate my job half as much.

Re: how hard is the LSAT?
 

Study until you have mastered all of those logic puzzles. There are only so many, after a while you can identify them and do them no problem. Everyone does about the same on the other sections, so this is where you separate yourself.

Re: how hard is the LSAT?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Study until you have mastered all of those logic puzzles. There are only so many, after a while you can identify them and do them no problem. Everyone does about the same on the other sections, so this is where you separate yourself.

[/ QUOTE ]

Don't know when you took the test, but not too long ago they rebalanced it. They made the games easier, and the reading comp and arguments sections more difficult. So this advice might be a bit outdated.

Re: how hard is the LSAT?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Study until you have mastered all of those logic puzzles. There are only so many, after a while you can identify them and do them no problem.Everyone does about the same on the other sections . , so this is where you separate yourself.

[/ QUOTE ]

No.

Re: how hard is the LSAT?
 

1) Don't go to law school unless you really want to be a lawyer. I had so many friends in law school that hated life, are now in tremendous debt, and have no job. This is not to say law school and being a lawyer cannot be great - I've loved both so far - but this is definitely not the case for many.

2) If you are going to take the test, definitely take a prep course. Testmasters is the best course hands down. Do all of their problems and go to all classes and you will improve by a ridiculous amount. I went up like 18 points. I had a buddy go from a 151 to 180.

Re: how hard is the LSAT?
 

Dude, if you can't do well on READING COMPREHENSION without studying you are probably going to have trouble with the drive home from the test center. Reading comprehension was a joke.

McShove, the most important advice I can give you is to register for the LSAT immediately so you don't get stuck driving 2 [censored] hours to the middle of bumfuck west Ohio like I did.

Re: how hard is the LSAT?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Dude, if you can't do well on READING COMPREHENSION without studying you are probably going to have trouble with the drive home from the test center. Reading comprehension was a joke.

McShove, the most important advice I can give you is to register for the LSAT immediately so you don't get stuck driving 2 [censored] hours to the middle of bumfuck west Ohio like I did.

[/ QUOTE ]

McShove said: " I've decided to apply to law school. Yesterday was the last day to register for the February exam, and I did so"

Hmm, who's having trouble with the reading comprehension now? [img]/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img]

Re: how hard is the LSAT?
 

1. It is not hard to do well on the LSAT.

2. It is hard to do very well on the LSAT.

The advice to take a class is probably good, because you really need a strategy for the logic puzzles. The other sections are more intuitive, but some strategies are helpful for logic puzzles.

It is true there are only a limited amount of types of puzzles and then combinations of those puzzles. (Ordering puzzles, scheduling puzzles, matching puzzles, etc.)


Just buy the books of every LSAT thats ever given and just take them. Start off with untimed sections, then untimed full tests, then timed sections, then timed full tests. First work on getting everything right. If you take double the time and go slow, you should be able to get to the point where you can not miss one on the puzzles. Then you need to start working on speed and timing yourself.



Although this advice shouldn't apply to you because you shouldn't be going to law school.

There are people that have wanted to go to law school and be lawyers their whole lives that don't end up liking it.

Doing it solely because you can stay in school and its a high-paying job is dumb.

Especially since "delaying the real world" arguments don't apply because law school is harder than the working world.

Re: how hard is the LSAT?
 

[ QUOTE ]

Especially since "delaying the real world" arguments don't apply because law school is harder than the working world.

[/ QUOTE ]

First year, maybe, but probably not. I'm pretty sure that people who go from being 3Ls to working at big NY firms don't find the transition relaxing.

Re: how hard is the LSAT?
 

[ QUOTE ]
1. It is not hard to do well on the LSAT.

2. It is hard to do very well on the LSAT.


[/ QUOTE ]

I'm with this one. I didn't take a practice course, just did a couple practice exams. For better or for worse, I had no real ambition to go to a top-tier school, I knew where I wanted to go and knew the score I needed given my GPA was pretty low. Part of me wonders how I would have done if I had taken a class. Most of me doesn't care.

Re: how hard is the LSAT?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
1. It is not hard to do well on the LSAT.

2. It is hard to do very well on the LSAT.


[/ QUOTE ]

I'm with this one. I didn't take a practice course, just did a couple practice exams. For better or for worse, I had no real ambition to go to a top-tier school, I knew where I wanted to go and knew the score I needed given my GPA was pretty low. Part of me wonders how I would have done if I had taken a class. Most of me doesn't care.

[/ QUOTE ]


This seems like a really dumb attitude to have.



When I was considering law school, I really just wanted to go to a certain school, didn't have super high aspirations to go to some elite school. I was scoring 165ish and knew that with that and my GPA I wouldn't have a problem getting into that particular school.

Then I proceeded to practice LSAT for a couple months before the real test and ended up doing much better (170+).

I am still going to the school I planned on initially.

The difference, however, was that I will be saving $100K by getting a big scholarship.

Re: how hard is the LSAT?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Especially since "delaying the real world" arguments don't apply because law school is harder than the working world.

[/ QUOTE ]

First year, maybe, but probably not. I'm pretty sure that people who go from being 3Ls to working at big NY firms don't find the transition relaxing.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah I agree with this. I'm a 1L straight outta undergrad, so its tough for me to see some of my friends working the 9-5 with weekends to themselves.

Re: how hard is the LSAT?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Don't go to law school unless you want to be a lawyer. I'm learning this the hard way right now. If you just want to be a student again for a while, apply to grad school. It is much less expensive.

[/ QUOTE ]

QFT. But you'll ignore this advice, like we all did, and you won't be happy about having ignored it. I wish I'd gone for a Philosophy PhD instead.

p.s. And if you do actually want to be a lawyer, reconsider.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is very good advice.

Re: how hard is the LSAT?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
1. It is not hard to do well on the LSAT.

2. It is hard to do very well on the LSAT.


[/ QUOTE ]

I'm with this one. I didn't take a practice course, just did a couple practice exams. For better or for worse, I had no real ambition to go to a top-tier school, I knew where I wanted to go and knew the score I needed given my GPA was pretty low. Part of me wonders how I would have done if I had taken a class. Most of me doesn't care.

[/ QUOTE ]


This seems like a really dumb attitude to have.



When I was considering law school, I really just wanted to go to a certain school, didn't have super high aspirations to go to some elite school. I was scoring 165ish and knew that with that and my GPA I wouldn't have a problem getting into that particular school.

Then I proceeded to practice LSAT for a couple months before the real test and ended up doing much better (170+).

I am still going to the school I planned on initially.

The difference, however, was that I will be saving $100K by getting a big scholarship.

[/ QUOTE ]

Wait, so the only difference in our attitude is you got a bigger scholarship? I scored a 165, got half my tuition paid for, and went to the school I wanted to go to, which was where my wife was, and wouldn't be able to move. I'm fine with it.

Re: how hard is the LSAT?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
1. It is not hard to do well on the LSAT.

2. It is hard to do very well on the LSAT.


[/ QUOTE ]

I'm with this one. I didn't take a practice course, just did a couple practice exams. For better or for worse, I had no real ambition to go to a top-tier school, I knew where I wanted to go and knew the score I needed given my GPA was pretty low. Part of me wonders how I would have done if I had taken a class. Most of me doesn't care.

[/ QUOTE ]


This seems like a really dumb attitude to have.



When I was considering law school, I really just wanted to go to a certain school, didn't have super high aspirations to go to some elite school. I was scoring 165ish and knew that with that and my GPA I wouldn't have a problem getting into that particular school.

Then I proceeded to practice LSAT for a couple months before the real test and ended up doing much better (170+).

I am still going to the school I planned on initially.

The difference, however, was that I will be saving $100K by getting a big scholarship.

[/ QUOTE ]

Wait, so the only difference in our attitude is you got a bigger scholarship? I scored a 165, got half my tuition paid for, and went to the school I wanted to go to, which was where my wife was, and wouldn't be able to move. I'm fine with it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, then what you say makes sense. I just mean, just because you know you want to go to school X and can get in, doesn't mean you shouldn't try to get as high a score as possible.

Even in your case, ace the LSATs and you coulda maybe gotten 75% or 100% scholarship.


People talk about how crazy it is that a couple of hands of poker in a big tournament can mean thousands of dollars.

I think its crazy that by getting 10 more questions right on a single test, I got myself out of $100K debt.

Re: how hard is the LSAT?
 

Not sure if this is a good indicator but I got a 650 on my Gmat and a 1290 on the SAT (old version)
What could I reasonably expect to get on the lsat?

Re: how hard is the LSAT?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Not sure if this is a good indicator but I got a 650 on my Gmat and a 1290 on the SAT (old version)
What could I reasonably expect to get on the lsat?

[/ QUOTE ]

I was once told to take your Verbal SAT, add a 1 in front, and drop the 0 off the end. That's your base goal.

(650 SAT becomes 165 LSAT).


Ended up being exactly correct for me.