Practical workarounds for US players
 

So let's concentrate on the realistic workarounds for the lack of access to NETeller by US players.

I've seen a few people here and there allude to setting up a residence and bank account in Canada or the UK, in order to transact business as usual. I had even done some initial digging into this myself, when the UIGEA was signed into law. But I admit to being a bit in the dark as to exactly how to proceed on this (to say nothing of being a bit lazy...).

Would anyone mind sharing their knowledge of how to go about doing this? Seems like setting up a private mail box (or similar) and a bank account outside of the US is the way to go.

I do wonder how well this is going to work out over the long haul, since the fish are unlikely to take similar steps to these, so the games will never be as good as they once were. But we'll see how things go. For now, I'd just like to be able to set up a way to be able to come and go with my money (the way the US used to be. Sigh....).

Re: Practical workarounds for US players
 

Who cares if the first are USA fish or not?
Just play at sites that don’t take US players using your work around. Personally with all that is going on I feel much better playing at sites like Party, Ladbrokes, Victor Chandler, etc right now. I’m not keeping much of my money in FTP, Stars, AP etc. Just get a work around and avoid USA friendly sites is my advice.

Re: Practical workarounds for US players
 

Those close to the Canadian border could easily hop across, setup a mailing address and a bank account, and come back home. Well, "easily" isn't so easy anymore, now that a passport is required to get in or out of the country.

Re: Practical workarounds for US players
 

Some sort of workaround may be the final solution to this mess for US players. As I pointed out before, workarounds are popular enough to attract mainstream media attention:

"Even PartyPoker saw an increase, as U.S. users figured out how to get around the ban on the sites. The company's U.S. audience increased to 1.3 million in December from 1.18 million in November, according to Nielsen//NetRatings."

http://www.businessweek.com/technolo...006_page_2.htm

Some have claimed to get in via findnot.com's proxy server, but we haven't heard whether they can get in or out yet. With Party, I can see how you can get money in there (phone cards), but how would you cash out?

It seems the only way to keep one's chains from being jerked as a "US player" is not to be registered from the US. But how?

Re: Practical workarounds for US players
 

Well I have been doing lots of thinking about this lately and I have found a solution to access the poker sites. I'm from Canada and I have similar problem with bodog poker like the US players do with Party. For some reason bodog will not allow Canadians to play on their site.

Anyway, I you sign up with findnot.com and use one of their proxy servers you can get in. I also have friend's address I can use too, but this doesn't totally solve the problem.

Hypothetical here, let's say you have a fake address, and use a proxy, and are able to get into a site. YOu also find a way to deposit money. However, let's say after you have been playing a while you want to cash out. If at any time the site like Party requests picture ID to validate who you say you are which actually happened to me 6 months ago, you are now in trouble because your driver's license or whatever ID you use won't match your bogus address.

Then they will just freeze your account and you can kiss your money good bye. Not saying this will happen for sure but It's a real possibility, especially if they track your IP address to a proxy.

Re: Practical workarounds for US players
 

Here's the rub: you need to have an offshore address and a financial account registered to it. How to do this is not clear.

Re: Practical workarounds for US players
 

Huh? The issue (at least at present) has nothing to do with the physical location, or ISP from which a user accesses an online poker site. I'm highly confident that if I were a UK customer of Party Poker, I would have no problem accessing Party Poker from a US location/ISP. Anonymizing your internet traffic is not (yet, at least) necessary.

What is necessary, is an apparently legitimate address and bank account in a non-US location. I'm assuming that Canada and the UK are the best options, since there would be no language issues.

The real question is: Is there a way to set something like this up, preferably without having to go to the UK or Canada to do so? I don't think the photo ID thing is the real problem. Here in the US, I could (if I so chose) change my address on a driver's license to a "private mail box" at one of the local packing/shipping stores. One could do the same thing in another country--get a private mail box, and then set up a bank account associated with that "address".

If a photo ID is truly the issue, this would obviously make Canada a better option than UK. But I'd doubt that you need an actual "driver's license". In most states in the US, anyone can get what is essentially a "non-driver license". Just go to the Department of Motor Vehicles, fill out a form, show a utility bill, bank statement, or some such thing, and they'll snap your picture and hand you an official driver's license--except that the "license" clearly states that no driving privileges are conveyed to the bearer. This was the "solution" to the growing problem of non-drivers in the US needing some sort of identification that at least appeared to be more substantial than library cards or college IDs.

I would assume that the provincial governments in Canada have some similar mechanism...but then again, I'm not a Canadian citizen, so I don't know for sure.

So again, I'm asking if anyone in the US has gone through any of these hoops to create the veneer of a "resident" status in Canada, UK, or perhaps Australia or New Zealand?

Re: Practical workarounds for US players
 

[ QUOTE ]
Huh? The issue (at least at present) has nothing to do with the physical location, or ISP from which a user accesses an online poker site. I'm highly confident that if I were a UK customer of Party Poker, I would have no problem accessing Party Poker from a US location/ISP. Anonymizing your internet traffic is not (yet, at least) necessary.

[/ QUOTE ]

You would be highly wrong. Most operators have IP blocking enabled. Just like when Neteller knows you're not in the US accessing your account the poker rooms know what geographical location your IP address is assigned to.

[ QUOTE ]
The real question is: Is there a way to set something like this up, preferably without having to go to the UK or Canada to do so? I don't think the photo ID thing is the real problem. Here in the US, I could (if I so chose) change my address on a driver's license to a "private mail box" at one of the local packing/shipping stores. One could do the same thing in another country--get a private mail box, and then set up a bank account associated with that "address".

[/ QUOTE ]

A much better, though more expensive, option is to set up an offshore corporation. For about $2000 in legal fees for setup and about $800 a year to maintain your corporation. Other than the setup fees, $800 is about what you pay in CA as a min tax on a LLC anyway so it's a wash. If you're a serious player and making a good living at this game, $2000 and $800 a year should be chump change. You then have a legal entity that is based outside of the US and you can always use your lawyer's address as your mailing address when creating accounts. Most companies that set up offshore accounts will also assist you in setting up offshore bank accounts as well.

Re: Practical workarounds for US players
 

Re: Practical workarounds for US players
 

[ QUOTE ]
www.easyswissbanking.com

[/ QUOTE ]

That's a very interesting idea and would seemingly work. Swiss bank accounts certainly aren't subject to whatever new regulations the feds set forth. As long as you can access them easily by neteller, it might be a winner. Anyone actually tried this?

Re: Practical workarounds for US players
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
www.easyswissbanking.com

[/ QUOTE ]

That's a very interesting idea and would seemingly work. Swiss bank accounts certainly aren't subject to whatever new regulations the feds set forth. As long as you can access them easily by neteller, it might be a winner. Anyone actually tried this?

[/ QUOTE ]

Swiss bank accounts for Americans can be a bit of a hassle. The Swiss would rather not take an American customer than open themselves up to supeonas and such when US customers are under investigation for tax evasion.

Not sure what this company is offering as part of their service but you should do a bit of research before using a third party for this type of thing. Even with setting up an offshore company as I recommended, you need to really do your homework on lawyers who can set this up. It's not always best to go with the cheapest or easiest method.

Re: Practical workarounds for US players
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
www.easyswissbanking.com

[/ QUOTE ]

That's a very interesting idea and would seemingly work. Swiss bank accounts certainly aren't subject to whatever new regulations the feds set forth. As long as you can access them easily by neteller, it might be a winner. Anyone actually tried this?

[/ QUOTE ]

Swiss bank accounts for Americans can be a bit of a hassle. The Swiss would rather not take an American customer than open themselves up to supeonas and such when US customers are under investigation for tax evasion.

Not sure what this company is offering as part of their service but you should do a bit of research before using a third party for this type of thing. Even with setting up an offshore company as I recommended, you need to really do your homework on lawyers who can set this up. It's not always best to go with the cheapest or easiest method.

[/ QUOTE ]

I haven't really looked at the site, but I'm not trusting my money to easyswissbanking.com, sounds more like a scam than anything else. Also, most Swiss banks are in the business of managing wealth, when you take out fees and the conversion to Swiss Francs, people who put their money there earn negative interest last I knew. They don't want to have a guy moving money in and out every few weeks to poker sites.

Re: Practical workarounds for US players
 

[ QUOTE ]
I'm highly confident that if I were a UK customer of Party Poker, I would have no problem accessing Party Poker from a US location/ISP

[/ QUOTE ]

That is 100% wrong. I have tested and they block U.S. IPs for real money games. You can observe from the U.S. but you cannot play.

Re: Practical workarounds for US players
 

I agree - I wouldn't trust this at all.

I checked out the domain and it doesn't even look legit. The site states they are an intermediary and will help secure a Swiss bank account. While that in itself may not be an illegitimate business, there is no BCM Financial registered in/around the area where the domain information portrays. When you compare legitimate businesses and their corresponding domain information to this one, it doens't pass the smell test.

They use a 'hotmail' address. They don't list a telephone number and don't host their own address.


Administrative Contact:
BCM Finance International
Tim Norman ([email protected])
612
Fax: 612
9 Bell St Avalon
Sydney, 2094
AU

Technical Contact:
BCM Finance International
Tim Norman ([email protected])
612
Fax: 612
9 Bell St Avalon
Sydney, 2094
AU

Status: Locked

Name Servers:
ns3.thebyteshack.com
ns4.thebyteshack.com

Creation date: 28 Mar 2006 00:46:41
Expiration date: 28 Mar 2007 00:46:41

Re: Practical workarounds for US players
 

eh... i suggest if u want a practical workaround, get a friend who lives not in US. Send him $. tell him to open an account and send u the password. These sites let u play from anywhere as long as the address is foreighm

Re: Practical workarounds for US players
 

Your absolutely right, poker sites do track IP addresses that's why you would need to use a proxy server.

However, you would seriously need ID to match your 'new foreign address' just in case they ask to verify who you say you are, and that the ID address matches the Address registered to the site. IF it doesn't then kiss your money good bye.

Re: Practical workarounds for US players
 

all you fish have to do is send me some money via check/money order and i'll transfer funds to your account [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: Practical workarounds for US players
 

[ QUOTE ]
Your absolutely right, poker sites do track IP addresses that's why you would need to use a proxy server.

However, you would seriously need ID to match your 'new foreign address' just in case they ask to verify who you say you are, and that the ID address matches the Address registered to the site. IF it doesn't then kiss your money good bye.

[/ QUOTE ]

You need it to match location. I use freecap to redirect the traffic to match the locations - http://www.freecap.ru/eng/?p=proxy

Re: Practical workarounds for US players
 

I live right near the Canadian border and own a passport. I was going to inquire about establishing an address there, but it appears that it won't make a differnce because of my ISP. [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

I keep holding out hope that there's a way to make this work but the future is bleak.

Re: Practical workarounds for US players
 

[ QUOTE ]
I live right near the Canadian border and own a passport. I was going to inquire about establishing an address there, but it appears that it won't make a differnce because of my ISP. [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

I keep holding out hope that there's a way to make this work but the future is bleak.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't know whether this is has been brought up... but what about simply moving to Canada? I don't play poker full time, I have a career as an aerospace engineer. Does anyone know whether Canadian law would allow me to get an engineering job there and move?

I am so sick of the tyrannical U.S. government, I would seriously consider doing that even if I stopped playing online poker.

Re: Practical workarounds for US players
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I live right near the Canadian border and own a passport. I was going to inquire about establishing an address there, but it appears that it won't make a differnce because of my ISP. [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

I keep holding out hope that there's a way to make this work but the future is bleak.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't know whether this is has been brought up... but what about simply moving to Canada? I don't play poker full time, I have a career as an aerospace engineer. Does anyone know whether Canadian law would allow me to get an engineering job there and move?

I am so sick of the tyrannical U.S. government, I would seriously consider doing that even if I stopped playing online poker.

[/ QUOTE ]

What happened to our country? The last six years have been a mess!

Re: Practical workarounds for US players
 

[ QUOTE ]
What happened to our country? The last six years have been a mess!

[/ QUOTE ]

George Bush & Bill Frist

Re: Practical workarounds for US players
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
What happened to our country? The last six years have been a mess!

[/ QUOTE ]

George Bush & Bill Frist

[/ QUOTE ]

Exactly!

Re: Practical workarounds for US players
 

Would it be necessary to have a foreign bank account as long as you have a foreign address?

For example, I have a friend in Canada whose address I could use. Currently I have my Neteller linked to an online savings account that has no B&M locations (although I do believe it is run out of the US). Could I have my Canadian friend set up a Neteller account and then run it through one of my online savings accounts? Would the name on the bank account need to match the name on the Neteller account?

Also, there's the e-mail address issue, as your Neteller address always needs to match your e-mail address with the merchant (as far as I know). If I closed my current Neteller account, could I re-open another one with a Canadian address and the same e-mail address I used before? What if I changed the e-mail address on the old one prior to closing?

(Obv. I could always just get a new e-mail account to run everything through but right now I run everything through one address and it would take ages to switch everything.)

Re: Practical workarounds for US players
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
What happened to our country? The last six years have been a mess!

[/ QUOTE ]

George Bush & Bill Frist

[/ QUOTE ]Dems have a majority now, it took both sides to [censored] us in the ass*






*not a support of the republican party by any means

Re: Practical workarounds for US players
 

ID is really the only problem. I have info for mail forwarding, Canadian Ph#, banking, internet traffic re-routing (and anyone using findnot is playing with fire. Findnot is often used for fraud and I've heard of people (through 2+2 PM's) that Using Neteller from a findnot IP has on occasion resulted in funds seizure. I wouldn't trust them).

I also know of people recently who have been allowed to deposit on Party, only to have their account locked within 2 minutes until a photo ID was sent. The ID must contain a photo, address, and date of birth. You could easily whip up some bogus corporate ID, but I doubt they'd be taken seriously because what corp ID's have your home address and DOB (especially the DOB...think legal exposure to age discrimination suits)?

Sorry for the lack of specific info, but since Party and other US-unfriendly site reps surely monitor these forums, I'd rather save detailed discussion for a private think tank. (BTW, for those of you who don't know me, I'm mainly a CTH poster...and putting together a data solution was what prompted me to research this issue. I've learned quite a bit in this area, data and otherwise in the past few months and lots of popular workarounds have significant risks).

Re: Practical workarounds for US players
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
What happened to our country? The last six years have been a mess!

[/ QUOTE ]

George Bush & Bill Frist

[/ QUOTE ]Dems have a majority now, it took both sides to [censored] us in the ass*






*not a support of the republican party by any means

[/ QUOTE ]

It took an election year where no one wanted to go out on a limb to defend gambling after the Abramoff scandal to screw us. It WAS a handful of Republican legislators who screwed us specifically using what amounted to a legislative gimmick but most of them (Republicans, Democrats, etc.) probably didn't give a crap one way or the other until they had to vote yay or nay. Weren't they fond of telling us it's OUR money, we can spend it better than Congress?

Re: Practical workarounds for US players
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
What happened to our country? The last six years have been a mess!

[/ QUOTE ]

George Bush & Bill Frist

[/ QUOTE ]Dems have a majority now, it took both sides to [censored] us in the ass*






*not a support of the republican party by any means

[/ QUOTE ]

It took an election year where no one wanted to go out on a limb to defend gambling after the Abramoff scandal to screw us. It WAS a handful of Republican legislators who screwed us specifically using what amounted to a legislative gimmick but most of them (Republicans, Democrats, etc.) probably didn't give a crap one way or the other until they had to vote yay or nay. Weren't they fond of telling us it's OUR money, we can spend it better than Congress?

[/ QUOTE ]

GET THE [censored] POLITICS OUT OF THIS [censored] THREAD. WE HAVE A WHOLE [censored] FORUM FOR THAT.

Edited to add: TWO [CENSORED] FORUMS IF YOU COUNT LEGISLATION.

Re: Practical workarounds for US players
 

Bluesbassman, and any other American looking at Canada as an option. I'm a Canadian citizen living in the US and I'm a testamony to how easy it is to live in either country. In any case, there is a provision in chapter 16 of the North American Free Trade Agreement (NAFTA), which allows Canadians and Americans to work and live in either country provided they work in one of the professions listed in NAFTA's chapter 16. That's how I've been able to live and work in the US for quite a while now (I'm in my second decade). You being an Aerospace Engineer should certainly qualify so long as you can secure a job in Canada as an Engineer. I'm not a lawyer but I consulted with one before I submitted my first application under this provision. After having gone through the system for many years I've become somewhat of an expert (short of being a lawyer). I also have many friends from school and ran into many colleagues who went this route. In fact, I've directly helped 4 people live in the US via this route. It's much easier than people think. If you want more info feel free to PM me. You can also do a google search on NAFTA chapter 16. Additionally, page 13 of the following pdf document gives a brief outline of the requirements for each profession: http://www.worldtradelaw.net/nafta/chap-16.pdf.

Canada is a great place to live if you don't mind the cold. Many argue it's a better place to live than the US and I agree with them on most points. I could go on and list the numerous benefits but that's another topic. Needless to say, the cold was what did it for me. If it came down to me giving up poker for where I live I would gladly give up online poker (fortunately, I don't have to - at least not yet). If you already live in a northern state the adjustment to the cold should be minimal to non-existant.

For those wishing to setup a Canadian bank account, keep in mind that most banks require some kind of government issued ID confirming you live in Canada. You may find banks that don't have this requirement but they might be in the minority.

Good luck.

Re: Practical workarounds for US players
 

I have no idea if this would work but I will throw the idea out there.

The law past does not restrict all online gambling. I think betting on horse racing, for example, was permited. What stops a poker site, like Stars, from creating a horse racing site that is linked to Stars. When a player try to deposit they would be redirected to the horse racing deposit account. Then you could have echecks/credit card deposits to the horse racing account. Once the money was in that account it could be transfered to the players "poker account" on the Stars poker site. Everything would be connected in a "Stars gaming network" and horce racing would just be a way to allow deposits.

Just an idea I had. I'm guessing there is something wrong with it or else it would have been implemented, but I would like to know what is wrong with the idea.

Re: Practical workarounds for US players
 

Anyone have an idea of the alternatives Stars says they are working on in that email response from support?

Re: Practical workarounds for US players
 

Not to sound pessimistic or a nit.....but arent most of these ideas considered bank fraud or money laundering to the US government?

For me.... im just done playing online all together until its legal to play in the US, and there are US-based sites. How easy would it be for these sites to just steal your money and blame the new laws?? Im not taking the chance....Which means theres a good chance Ill never play online again.

It sucks....but anyone halfway intelligent cried about this a few months ago, and was simply waiting for it to happen....im over it.

Hello life, nice to see you again... Ive missed you. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Re: Practical workarounds for US players
 

[ QUOTE ]
Some sort of workaround may be the final solution to this mess for US players. As I pointed out before, workarounds are popular enough to attract mainstream media attention:

"Even PartyPoker saw an increase, as U.S. users figured out how to get around the ban on the sites. The company's U.S. audience increased to 1.3 million in December from 1.18 million in November, according to Nielsen//NetRatings."

http://www.businessweek.com/technolo...006_page_2.htm


[/ QUOTE ]

Business Week incorrectly attributed play money numbers to real money activity. There were 1.3 million play money players in December, none of which include real money players from the US.

Re: Practical workarounds for US players
 

[ QUOTE ]
Hypothetical here, let's say you have a fake address, and use a proxy, and are able to get into a site. YOu also find a way to deposit money. However, let's say after you have been playing a while you want to cash out. If at any time the site like Party requests picture ID to validate who you say you are which actually happened to me 6 months ago, you are now in trouble because your driver's license or whatever ID you use won't match your bogus address.


[/ QUOTE ]

Um... what about photoshopping a fake ID scan? Isn't this a viable option?