500/1000 stars
 

Villian is Nemo, getting hit with the deck hard. running everyone over with silly hands. i've managed to avoid him during his run till this hand. comments on all streets appreciated

Table 'Iclea III' 10-max Seat #6 is the button
Seat 3: newhizzle ($22480 in chips)
Seat 4: neverwin ($26286 in chips)
Seat 5: Nemo234 ($49968 in chips)
Seat 6: Dan Druff ($12159 in chips)
Seat 7: FoxyPlayer ($5240 in chips)
Seat 8: Hero ($21306 in chips)
Seat 9: JMSig ($17960 in chips)
FoxyPlayer: posts small blind $250
Hero: posts big blind $500
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Hero [2d Qd]
JMSig: folds
newhizzle: folds
neverwin: folds
Nemo234: raises $500 to $1000
Dan Druff: folds
FoxyPlayer: folds
Hero: calls $500
*** FLOP *** [4s Jd 6d]
Dan Druff said, "we are all trading money back and forth"
Hero: bets $500
Nemo234: raises $500 to $1000
Hero: calls $500
*** TURN *** [4s Jd 6d] [Td]
Dan Druff said, "the only constant is nemo's roll growign"
Hero: checks
Nemo234: bets $1000
iamhiv said, "nemo is taking it all"
Hero: raises $1000 to $2000
Nemo234: raises $1000 to $3000
Hero: raises $1000 to $4000
Betting is capped
Nemo234: calls $1000
*** RIVER *** [4s Jd 6d Td] [Jh]
Hero: bets $1000
Nemo234: raises $1000 to $2000
Hero said, "oh fuukkk"

Re: 500/1000 stars
 

c/c river if you are thinking of folding this, imo.

Re: 500/1000 stars
 

I mean, call. You can prob c/c the river though, since he is always betting worse flushes anyway.

James

Re: 500/1000 stars
 

LOL CALL

Re: 500/1000 stars
 

Not to be a dick, but why do you think it is ok to post all the other screenames and not yours eeltalk?

Re: 500/1000 stars
 

[ QUOTE ]
Not to be a dick, but why do you think it is ok to post all the other screenames and not yours eeltalk?

[/ QUOTE ]

Umm...anyone can watch the table. I assume he's trying to keep his stars name from being associated with his 2+2 name. What is the problem with that?

Vig

Re: 500/1000 stars
 

Don't see much point in leading the flop. Nemo's really unlikely to fold for one bet here, and the lead just screams flush draw. I'd C/R there.

As played, I actually like c/c on the river. You can't fold to a raise, and the only thing he might check behind with is an overpair. Boat is more likely than overpair, so check/call.

Re: 500/1000 stars
 

I would call the river. Also, i would only donk the flop if i intended to 3 bet a raise.

Re: 500/1000 stars
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Not to be a dick, but why do you think it is ok to post all the other screenames and not yours eeltalk?

[/ QUOTE ]

Umm...anyone can watch the table. I assume he's trying to keep his stars name from being associated with his 2+2 name. What is the problem with that?

Vig

[/ QUOTE ]

I guess I was being a dick, we used to have a policy around here of using a converter, not discussing a fish etc. But it seems like there is such a sick double standard, (started with derb i guess) just sorta hypocritical, lets all discuss how bad nemo and others suck, and how to exploit them, but god forbid you see my super secret screename. Just seems lame.

bah, I was probably just in a bad mood I guess.

Re: 500/1000 stars
 

I don't at all see the point of the flop donk. If you weren't presumably a winning 500/1k player I would say its fishy, so instead I'll say please tell me why you did it. River looks fine and I think check/call is really weak.

-DeathDonkey

Re: 500/1000 stars
 

Agree with DD. flop dont only makes sense if you are going to 3-bet.

Re: 500/1000 stars
 

flop donk is good though, if you are planning to three bet, right?

Re: 500/1000 stars
 

[ QUOTE ]
Also, i would only donk the flop if i intended to 3 bet a raise.


[/ QUOTE ]

I would also donk the flop if intended to call the flop raise, check-raise any turn and bet nearly every river (sometimes give up or check if catch a pair).

Re: 500/1000 stars
 

i like a river check/call instead of leading out when the board pairs.

Re: 500/1000 stars
 

[ QUOTE ]
i like a river check/call instead of leading out when the board pairs.

[/ QUOTE ]

wouldn't this be really weak?
till his river raise villain could have everything ^^

so izi bet/call river.

Re: 500/1000 stars
 

you have to lead the river and you have to call his raise, he is a maniac, but even against a tighty this is prolly a call.

Re: 500/1000 stars
 

[ QUOTE ]
you have to lead the river and you have to call his raise, he is a maniac, but even against a tighty this is prolly a call.

[/ QUOTE ]

he doesn't appear to be as much of a maniac on turn/river. given the 4 bets on the turn, you'll almost always get a bet out of him on the river no matter what it is, however, he may be far more likely to only raise if you're beat when you bet (many more ways that can happen if the board pairs). if it pairs the board c/c. if it falls blank, bet call. anybody 3 bet if he raises again and it blanks off? i see nor eason to w/o a read better than mine (which is 2nd-playing- and some 1st hand-watching not playing.)

Barron

Re: 500/1000 stars
 

outcome?

Re: 500/1000 stars
 

You could have folded preflop. Should you have? It's close, and Qx suited is often a blind defence headsup.
Anyway, I would have slowed down on the turn and just check/called on the river.

Re: 500/1000 stars
 

Agree I could have folded preflop, but i didnt. Agree the donk bet on the flop looks horrible, but that is another conversation.

Was curious to see if anybody possibly finds a fold on the river. 100% agree with Barron's post, and his river gameplan. I definitely misplayed this river. Luckily I didn't compound my mistake to lead with a second mistake.

My first instinct was to lay it down against the river raise. Once the turn is capped...I'm thinking set, at a minimum. the river is horrible for me. When he raises that river card, i'm beat most of time.

Luckily for me, this was an exception. I called the river raise, he had 2-red kings.

In hindsight, I think he actually played it well. His play came very close into forcing me into a very bad mistake on the river. I probably fold that spot enough to make the river raise profitable over the long-haul.

Re: 500/1000 stars
 

"In hindsight, I think he actually played it well. His play came very close into forcing me into a very bad mistake on the river. I probably fold that spot enough to make the river raise profitable over the long-haul. "


Passing the river with a flush here getting over 15-1 against the biggest loser online is not a good idea.

Re: 500/1000 stars
 

He might have played the river well if he was really good and solid and knew u knew this and were capable of folding.

As he is a fish, he played it terribly. No way in hell it was a bluff raise btw, no way.

Re: 500/1000 stars
 

I hope you weren't seriously considering folding this river.

Re: 500/1000 stars
 

[ QUOTE ]
I hope you weren't seriously considering folding this river.

[/ QUOTE ]

esp to nemo

Re: 500/1000 stars
 

[ QUOTE ]
He might have played the river well if he was really good and solid and knew u knew this and were capable of folding.

As he is a fish, he played it terribly. No way in hell it was a bluff raise btw, no way.

[/ QUOTE ]

Agree 100%. He probably still thinks he won the pot.

Re: 500/1000 stars
 

For the river action... 1 bet is going in no matter what - if you check, he bets with nearly 100% of the hands he 4bets the turn with.

When 2 bets go into the river, you tend to be behind.


bet/calling the river seems almost as silly to me as donk/calling the flop.

Re: 500/1000 stars
 

very easy bet/call against nemo for the very reason of what happened, he loves throwing bets into massive pots thinking he has fold equity. You know you've all seen him do the cap a street fold to a 3rd bet or 4th bet on the next.. You've made a giant pot, bet to get him to raise and call to snap him off. Everyone that says check/call doesn't know nemo i dont' think

Re: 500/1000 stars
 

Based on the river raise, how often do you think you're ahead? More than 50%, obviously if you'd prefer 2 bets to go in to one.

But by how much? Because unless you're just barely skimming the 50% barrier, it becomes closer to a bet/3bet or check/raise than it does to a bet/call (largely dependent on his 3bet and capping range).

Being ahead 33.33% of the time is breakeven for a bet/3bet if he only caps with better hands, always caps with better hands, always calls with worse hands AND you always call the 4bet. Since those obviously arent all true, it's considerably closer to 50%. So close that i'd say that if you want to bet/call, there's realy not a big difference between that and bet/3betting.

Re: 500/1000 stars
 

no because he always calls or caps better and usually folds but can actually 4-bet worse too, meaning you really don't want to put yourself in that spot

Re: 500/1000 stars
 

[ QUOTE ]
I would call the river. Also, i would only donk the flop if i intended to 3 bet a raise.

[/ QUOTE ]

disagree a lot if you mean this in general for donking flops with flush draws

then again I haven't beaten above 1-2 consistently so I don't know anything, but I had to point this out

-Jeff

Re: 500/1000 stars
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I would call the river. Also, i would only donk the flop if i intended to 3 bet a raise.

[/ QUOTE ]

disagree a lot if you mean this in general for donking flops with flush draws

then again I haven't beaten above 1-2 consistently so I don't know anything, but I had to point this out

-Jeff

[/ QUOTE ]

I think Gabe is right on. People that donk into me with flush draws but then make my life simple by just calling my raise make me happy. I keep thinking "thanks for charging yourself to draw".

-DeathDonkey

Re: 500/1000 stars
 

What did nemo have?

Re: 500/1000 stars
 

red kings

Re: 500/1000 stars
 

[ QUOTE ]
Agree I could have folded preflop, but i didnt. Agree the donk bet on the flop looks horrible, but that is another conversation.

Was curious to see if anybody possibly finds a fold on the river. 100% agree with Barron's post, and his river gameplan. I definitely misplayed this river. Luckily I didn't compound my mistake to lead with a second mistake.

My first instinct was to lay it down against the river raise. Once the turn is capped...I'm thinking set, at a minimum. the river is horrible for me. When he raises that river card, i'm beat most of time.

Luckily for me, this was an exception. I called the river raise, he had 2-red kings.

In hindsight, I think he actually played it well. His play came very close into forcing me into a very bad mistake on the river. I probably fold that spot enough to make the river raise profitable over the long-haul.

[/ QUOTE ]


jesus--u never fold this river i hope.

Re: 500/1000 stars
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I would call the river. Also, i would only donk the flop if i intended to 3 bet a raise.

[/ QUOTE ]

disagree a lot if you mean this in general for donking flops with flush draws

then again I haven't beaten above 1-2 consistently so I don't know anything, but I had to point this out

-Jeff

[/ QUOTE ]

If you think about the different ways yo can get in 2 or more bets on the flop, i think bet callin is by far the worst. You just will induce all sorts of semi-bluff and free card raises since people usually just treat flop donks as a draw, and you want to garner as much FE as possible if you doing something other than check/calling. Bet calling is the worst way to do that IMO.

Re: 500/1000 stars
 

I certainly don't play anywhere near this level, but this would be a ridiculous fold in my opinion. At worst, it's a mistake that costs you a tiny fraction of a bet. Why risk one bet hoping to win one bet when you aren't willing to risk two in order to win the whole pot?

Plus, getting in the habit of making "big folds" is something that is easily exploited by an astute opponent. You may be saving a tenth of a bet here and there, but you're forfeiting tremendous value over the long run if your opponent begins to take advantage of your unwillingness to make these calls.

Also, I agree with the others that your flop play doesn't really accomplish anything. Check-raise or bet-raise seem like your best options.

Re: 500/1000 stars
 

the flop play I care not to discuss, because there were a lot of other factors that justified the play (atleast in my head) at the time.

What is more interesting to me is the river. I did not "know" nemo a well as many posters here claim to know him. At this point I had very few hands with him, and only knew him to be a high stakes regular. I treated him accordingly. I still have a hard time believing he is as bad a many claim here. But I guess Neteller and the US gov't has killed the ps game anyways...so its all moot now.

so let me amend the inquiry as follows: You have no history with the villian, aside from knowing he is a high-stakes regular. After all that heat on the turn and the river raise, can anyone justify a fold?

i called with the expectation to lose...once there is all that heat on the turn, and then the board also pairs, how often am I ahead? In my experiences, never, except this one time...which is why i almost let it go.

Re: 500/1000 stars
 

[ QUOTE ]
But I guess Neteller and the US gov't has killed the ps game anyways...so its all moot now.

[/ QUOTE ]

i don't know.. a lot of the biggest fish are from scandinavia [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

and, against an unknown player, if i was looking to fold if bet and raised, i would check and call. if i for some reason threw a bet out while i was in a trance and he raised, i would still call.

Re: 500/1000 stars
 

"trance" is actually relevant here. Ever get in that mode online where you are clicking the buttons so fast that you are in a trance? As i couldn't click the raise/bet button fast enough, it hit me that I was probably behind when he finally raised the river. that certainly snapped me out of the trance.

Re: 500/1000 stars
 

sure i have done it. i have bet some of the worst rivers ever simply because i just clicked bet w/out seeing the card or without having it register in my head first.