Hand against DeathDonkey
 

The BB in this hand seems tight enough not to be an overactive player. Overall I'd say he seems a little on the loose side, maybe a ~40% VPIPer. DeathDonkey has a reputation as a LAG (and his opening range here is usually accordingly wide) but is a good postflop player.

Party Poker 30/60 Hold'em (7 handed) pokerhand.org hand converter

Preflop: Hero is SB with 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP1 raises</font>, <font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, Hero calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>.

Flop: (5 SB) 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP1 bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, MP1 calls.

Turn: (4.50 BB) T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, MP1 calls.

River: (6.50 BB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP1 bets</font>, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 8.50 BB

Re: Hand against DeathDonkey
 

You've got to 3-bet this preflop unless it's live and you see him already folding.

Re: Hand against DeathDonkey
 

how often is deathdonkey bluffing this river?

Re: Hand against DeathDonkey
 

Not sure what you're finding interesting about this hand. Could you drop a hint?

I think the river is a relatively straight-forward check-call but I could see the argument for betting if you think he'd be more likely to call with Ace-high than bet it. Is this what you're aiming at?

- Jim

Re: Hand against DeathDonkey
 

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You've got to 3-bet this preflop unless it's live and you see him already folding.

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Yeah, I agree with you on that. I'm not accustomed to 3-betting mid pockets from the SB against good players, but I think 77 is too much hand to pass up here.

Re: Hand against DeathDonkey
 

imo if you are calling the river, you are beat.

Re: Hand against DeathDonkey
 

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imo if you are calling the river, you are beat.

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What does he have? I don't think Chris bluffs all that often, but I really don't think he has a pair very often given his flop/turn play. So I felt like the river was a tossup but since I couldn't put him on many pairs I liked a check better.

Re: Hand against DeathDonkey
 

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imo if you are calling the river, you are beat.

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What does he have? I don't think Chris bluffs all that often, but I really don't think he has a pair very often given his flop/turn play. So I felt like the river was a tossup but since I couldn't put him on many pairs I liked a check better.

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i really dont know what he has, but i think he does NOT have an unimproved big ace. maybe a hand like A5s if you are lucky. maybe he has AA-KK and is just wating to bang you on the river. i dunno. i just feel like if you are going to put a bet into the pot on the river, the one that is placed has a greater expectation than one that is called. but i play bad. and i also 3bet this pf to get his donkeyass HU.

Re: Hand against DeathDonkey
 

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imo if you are calling the river, you are beat.

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What does he have? I don't think Chris bluffs all that often, but I really don't think he has a pair very often given his flop/turn play. So I felt like the river was a tossup but since I couldn't put him on many pairs I liked a check better.

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i really dont know what he has, but i think he does NOT have an unimproved big ace. maybe a hand like A5s if you are lucky. maybe he has AA-KK and is just wating to bang you on the river. i dunno. i just feel like if you are going to put a bet into the pot on the river, the one that is placed has a greater expectation than one that is called. but i play bad. and i also 3bet this pf to get his donkeyass HU.

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What the hell are you hoping he'd call a river bet with?

Re: Hand against DeathDonkey
 

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imo if you are calling the river, you are beat.

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What does he have? I don't think Chris bluffs all that often, but I really don't think he has a pair very often given his flop/turn play. So I felt like the river was a tossup but since I couldn't put him on many pairs I liked a check better.

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i really dont know what he has, but i think he does NOT have an unimproved big ace. maybe a hand like A5s if you are lucky. maybe he has AA-KK and is just wating to bang you on the river. i dunno. i just feel like if you are going to put a bet into the pot on the river, the one that is placed has a greater expectation than one that is called. but i play bad. and i also 3bet this pf to get his donkeyass HU.

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What the hell are you hoping he'd call a river bet with?

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i never said i'd bet the river, just that IMO if he bets it, you're done.

Re: Hand against DeathDonkey
 

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imo if you are calling the river, you are beat.

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What does he have? I don't think Chris bluffs all that often, but I really don't think he has a pair very often given his flop/turn play. So I felt like the river was a tossup but since I couldn't put him on many pairs I liked a check better.

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i really dont know what he has, but i think he does NOT have an unimproved big ace. maybe a hand like A5s if you are lucky. maybe he has AA-KK and is just wating to bang you on the river. i dunno. i just feel like if you are going to put a bet into the pot on the river, the one that is placed has a greater expectation than one that is called. but i play bad. and i also 3bet this pf to get his donkeyass HU.

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What the hell are you hoping he'd call a river bet with?

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i never said i'd bet the river, just that IMO if he bets it, you're done.

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I never said I'd check/call, just that if you bet and are called you're done.

Re: Hand against DeathDonkey
 

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imo if you are calling the river, you are beat.

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What does he have? I don't think Chris bluffs all that often, but I really don't think he has a pair very often given his flop/turn play. So I felt like the river was a tossup but since I couldn't put him on many pairs I liked a check better.

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i really dont know what he has, but i think he does NOT have an unimproved big ace. maybe a hand like A5s if you are lucky. maybe he has AA-KK and is just wating to bang you on the river. i dunno. i just feel like if you are going to put a bet into the pot on the river, the one that is placed has a greater expectation than one that is called. but i play bad. and i also 3bet this pf to get his donkeyass HU.

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What the hell are you hoping he'd call a river bet with?

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i never said i'd bet the river, just that IMO if he bets it, you're done.

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I never said I'd check/call, just that if you bet and are called you're done.

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ok. based on the way DD played the hand, he either has us destroyed, or he just made a hideous river bet. IMO he has us beat.

Re: Hand against DeathDonkey
 

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i never said i'd bet the river, just that IMO if he bets it, you're done.

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I never said I'd check/call, just that if you bet and are called you're done.

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ok. based on the way DD played the hand, he either has us destroyed, or he just made a hideous river bet. IMO he has us beat.

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What hand has Hero beat that doesn't give more action sooner?

Re: Hand against DeathDonkey
 

some points:

1. u bet, he calls, u lose.

2. u bet, he folds, u win.

3. u check. he bets, u lose sometimes.

4. u check, he checks, u win always.

Re: Hand against DeathDonkey
 

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i never said i'd bet the river, just that IMO if he bets it, you're done.

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I never said I'd check/call, just that if you bet and are called you're done.

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ok. based on the way DD played the hand, he either has us destroyed, or he just made a hideous river bet. IMO he has us beat.

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What hand has Hero beat that doesn't give more action sooner?

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a very brilliantly and slyly played AA-KK. i agree that nothing else makes any sense.

Re: Hand against DeathDonkey
 

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some points:

3. u check. he bets, u lose sometimes.



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do you think it is "only" sometimes? imo Entity has held up a sign that has said "i am seeing a showdown", so a river bet from DD seems foolish unless he has Entity beat.

Re: Hand against DeathDonkey
 

I like your line here Entity, there was some talk of betting the river here, but I think (given DeathDonkey's description) would be a mistake. I don't think you can get away from this once a 9 hits on the river.

Re: Hand against DeathDonkey
 

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imo if you are calling the river, you are beat.

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What does he have? I don't think Chris bluffs all that often, but I really don't think he has a pair very often given his flop/turn play. So I felt like the river was a tossup but since I couldn't put him on many pairs I liked a check better.

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I like checking way better than betting, but I wonder about calling.

couldnt he easily have a pair, something like A9s or even A8s/87s? the important thing is what he puts you on. when you c/r the flop, you have a pair+ or maybe an OESD. even if A high might be in your checkraising range (shouldnt be IMO against his MP1 open, maybe against his button open) it wouldnt be in your cool-calling range PF. when the T hits, he's gotta figure you for SOME kind of pair - it'd be easy for you to have something like T9s, JTs, etc - and if you DID have an OESD on the flop, it paired on the turn or improved to a straight...so he has to call the turn knowing you have at least a pair. he'd fold AK/KQ at this point (I hope) and probably raise an overpair either on the flop or turn, so that's out most of the time (the trend lately hasn't been to wait till the river, not sure if that's how DD plays). I think he would have to release a pocket pair like 66-44 to a turn bet on that board.

that leaves his turn calling range as something like AJ-KJ for hands you beat, and suited connectors that have a pair+ (87s, JTs, etc) as hands that have you beaten. if he would raise the turn even with these weaker pairs then it makes your river play a much easier check-call, but if he'd call his pairs on the turn (with outs, afraid of a 3-bet, wants to showdown cheap, wants to string you along, any number of reasons...) I always seem to favor check-folding in spots like these cause 2+2ers always expect 2+2ers to pay off everything

EDIT: the only thing that made me hesitate to post is the ever present question "what else might rob play this way" to which I have no answer

Re: Hand against DeathDonkey
 

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he either has us destroyed, or he just made a hideous river bet.

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I don't want to give any results yet as its a good thread IMO, but these can't both be true Bob. If it's so obvious Entity is destroyed here, then it's the perfect time for a bluff. Just reading this thread a bluff can't possibly be hideous since nobody thinks I could bluff there.

-DeathDonkey

Re: Hand against DeathDonkey
 

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he either has us destroyed, or he just made a hideous river bet.

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I don't want to give any results yet as its a good thread IMO, but these can't both be true Bob. If it's so obvious Entity is destroyed here, then it's the perfect time for a bluff. Just reading this thread a bluff can't possibly be hideous since nobody thinks I could bluff there.

-DeathDonkey

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You tricky multi-level thinking little donkey you, how dare you [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Seriously though DD brings up a great point, if he knows who villian is, he'd know that villian would never expect him to bluff here, when Entity has (as others have noted) said he wants to showdown. That river check is definately a defensive check. Against most players i agree a c/f is better, but against a thinker who can be several steps ahead, a c/c has a lot of merit.

lf

Re: Hand against DeathDonkey
 

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he either has us destroyed, or he just made a hideous river bet.

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I don't want to give any results yet as its a good thread IMO, but these can't both be true Bob. If it's so obvious Entity is destroyed here, then it's the perfect time for a bluff. Just reading this thread a bluff can't possibly be hideous since nobody thinks I could bluff there.

-DeathDonkey

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Or maybe you just thought "I can't win by checking."

KJo no good.

Re: Hand against DeathDonkey
 

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KJo no good.

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KJ trashes on the turn, no?

Re: Hand against DeathDonkey
 

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he either has us destroyed, or he just made a hideous river bet.

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I don't want to give any results yet as its a good thread IMO, but these can't both be true Bob. If it's so obvious Entity is destroyed here, then it's the perfect time for a bluff. Just reading this thread a bluff can't possibly be hideous since nobody thinks I could bluff there.

-DeathDonkey

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I don't necessarily agree that a bluff is not an awful idea for you.

Even though Ent is the SB here, I believe with the BB read that his defending range is pretty huge here, especially since Ent is (and knows that he is) a good postflop player. This board is very likely to hit Ent's range of hands (mid suited connectors, maybe stuff like T9o or similar), and I'd assume that he'd 3bet his premium hands, so from DD's perspective those should be discounted somewhat (I doubt Ent would miss value preflop with AK/AQ/JJ-AA etc since you said DD's opening range is pretty large, but two good players who know each other is always weird/tricky). I'd say Ent's play from your perspective is consistent a small pair -- possibly bottom pair (I dunno if hes liberal enough to defend with 65s) but probably 66/77/87 or a semibluff that missed the draw. Thus, your river bet would put you in a situation where he'll call if hes ahead and fold if hes behind.

Ent might also play T8 or something similar -- assuming that he doesn't think you'd call his river bet with A high and therefore you had him owned the whole time with TT-AA or whatever.

Basically its a situation where Ent thinks "If I bet and he calls, I lose" and DD thinks "If I bet and he calls, I lose" so neither of you bet unless you are sure you are ahead.

EDIT: Its 4:30am, I'm probably going to wake up and realize nothing I said makes any sense, but hopefully somebody gets the gist of what I'm saying (or tells me I'm retarded).

Re: Hand against DeathDonkey
 

He can have 66 here, which is probably enough reason to call all by itself.

Re: Hand against DeathDonkey
 

Preflop: Raise!!!
Flop: I might just call down from here if he's aggressive. It's not quite WA/WB because you have the gutshot and may pick up more outs, but are you really wanting to put more money in the pot with 2 overs on the board with 77? He surely won't fold overcards here for one bet.
Turn: worth a bet for the scare card and the draw, as he calls here I think you are more likely behind than not. JT? AT? KT? I think a load of combinations beat you.
River: call him, he's agressive [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img] but i reckon you lost

Re: Hand against DeathDonkey
 

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He can have 66 here, which is probably enough reason to call all by itself.

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hmm, this could be a good point...if only there were a way to find out how often he might have various hands, maybe as a percentage?

Re: Hand against DeathDonkey
 

The turn is the interesting street for me. In my experience in live games the Donkey seems pretty active on the turn. With worse hands than yours he will either raise or fold.

I think he probably has you crushed, but if you are not going to fold I think you should check, since he will bet a few hands that he will not call with and will check behind a lot of the time.

I think the standard 3-bet pre-flop is a good idea..

Re: Hand against DeathDonkey
 

bump; page 3

Re: Hand against DeathDonkey
 

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KJo no good.

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KJ trashes on the turn, no?

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Trashes?

Rob

Re: Hand against DeathDonkey
 

Yeah I had KJo. Open ended on the turn.

-DeathDonkey

Re: Hand against DeathDonkey
 

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Yeah I had KJo. Open ended on the turn.



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isn't that a cute time for a raise?

Re: Hand against DeathDonkey
 

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Yeah I had KJo. Open ended on the turn.



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isn't that a cute time for a raise?

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Only if he wants to get called down by most of my hands and 3-bet by another subset of them.

Rob

Re: Hand against DeathDonkey
 

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Yeah I had KJo. Open ended on the turn.



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isn't that a cute time for a raise?

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Only if he wants to get called down by most of my hands and 3-bet by another subset of them.


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well, it only works if he'll make this play with KK and AA as well. and what are you going to feel good about 3beting him with here?