Atheism vs. Antitheism
 

Many of you so called atheists are really antitheists.

An antitheist would be someone that believes there is no god and doesn't want anyone else to believe in god either, thus introducing arguement upon arguement trying to convince the theists that they are wrong.

I would like to hear from the antitheists how their approach to faith (or antifaith) is any different than the religious fundies. The fundies try to argue that others beliefs are wrong if they aren't aligned with theirs. How is this different than the antitheists trying to convince others their theistic views are wrong?

Re: Atheism vs. Antitheism
 

So, basically if we're not religious we're just supposed to keep our beliefs to ourselves? Even in a philosophy forum, whose ostensible purpose is to share/compare/justify belief systems?

To more directly answer your question, I wouldn't care so much about what Christians believe if they stopped voting.

Re: Atheism vs. Antitheism
 

This is an internet forum for debate, no? It's not like the athiests on this board go door to door in their spare time trying to convert random Christians. At least I doubt it.

Re: Atheism vs. Antitheism
 

[ QUOTE ]
Many of you so called atheists are really antitheists.

An antitheist would be someone that believes there is no god and doesn't want anyone else to believe in god either, thus introducing arguement upon arguement trying to convince the theists that they are wrong.

[/ QUOTE ]


I believe this is wrong. I think many 2p2ers "do not believe in God", not "believe there is no God"


Also, just a thought on your question:

"I believe in gravity. I believe all macroscopic objects near the earth's surface will fall towards the earth. I believe anyone who doesnt agree with me is wrong"

"I believe in Jesus Christ. I believe he is the son of God, born of a virgin, and His body was taken to heaven after he died. I believe anyone who doesnt believe this is wrong, and will be punished in hell"


Do you believe the first is comparable to the second? If not, do you concede that some statements in the form "I believe X, and argue that anyone who disagrees is wrong" might not be created equal?

Re: Atheism vs. Antitheism
 

[ QUOTE ]
I would like to hear from the antitheists how their approach to faith (or antifaith) is any different than the religious fundies.

[/ QUOTE ]
The religious fundies are trying to convince people of the truth of a bizarre supernatural story. Antitheists, as you call them, are trying to convince people that this story is lacking in evidence, and not consistent with what we've discovered about the universe.

See the difference?

BTW, I am a great believer in faith as being a positive in human affairs. I have no problems with faith, or with people believing in some kind of "higher power".

What I am against is people placing that faith in bizarre stories like Scientology or Christianity or Islam. It lessens the human race as a whole - especially when these people suffer indoctrination as children, and end up doing the same to THEIR kids.

You only have to look at someone like BluffTHIS (who ironically, is a Catholic and not a Muslim or Hindu or Scientologist - I wonder where he was brought up, and where he went to school, and what religion his parents had?) to see the harm that religious indoctrination does to people. The poor bastard will never have a free thought in his life.

Re: Atheism vs. Antitheism
 

The primary reason I pose this question is that it seems to me the biggest beef of many athestists is the fundies trying to force their beliefs on them.

I hear/read it time and again. Something to the effect of, "I don't care what you believe or don't believe, just be respectful of my beliefs."

Anyone else see the irony here?

I'm all for healthy debate on the topic. And as some have said, that's what this forum is about.

I just haven't seen that many intelligent arguements. It's all finger pointing and, "you're wrong," or "prove this, if you can't then your point is invalid," etc.

Re: Atheism vs. Antitheism
 

[ QUOTE ]
"prove this, if you can't then your point is invalid,"

[/ QUOTE ]

If you think this is oppressive behavior, you're basically against argument in general.

Re: Atheism vs. Antitheism
 

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The primary reason I pose this question is that it seems to me the biggest beef of many athestists is the fundies trying to force their beliefs on them.

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No. By far the commonest beef is not with the belief but the actions it causes some theists to take. Stem-cell research, abortian, biology texts, science teaching, books in government book stores explaining how Grand Canyon was caused by Noah's flood, death penalty, religious laws in court, same sex issues, women's rights, childrens rights, etc.

Since the bulk of the 14th century ideas that fundies are trying to foist on society stem from their religion, reasonable people ( and this often includes other theists) attempt to prevent the spread of the disease by attacking the source. It's preventative even though it looks reactive.

luckyme

Re: Atheism vs. Antitheism
 

[ QUOTE ]
No. By far the commonest beef is not with the belief but the actions it causes some theists to take. Stem-cell research, abortian, biology texts, science teaching, books in government book stores explaining how Grand Canyon was caused by Noah's flood, death penalty, religious laws in court, same sex issues, women's rights, childrens rights, etc.

[/ QUOTE ]

Exactly. If it was just a harmless delusion why would anyone care? Athiests could quite easily ignore them just as they would a child talking to an imaginary friend.

But as it is we have a government that wants to take away my right to play poker online, and at least part of the reason is that they think their imaginary friend disapproves of gambling.

Re: Atheism vs. Antitheism
 

[ QUOTE ]
Many of you so called atheists are really antitheists.

An antitheist would be someone that believes there is no god and doesn't want anyone else to believe in god either, thus introducing arguement upon arguement trying to convince the theists that they are wrong.

I would like to hear from the antitheists how their approach to faith (or antifaith) is any different than the religious fundies. The fundies try to argue that others beliefs are wrong if they aren't aligned with theirs. How is this different than the antitheists trying to convince others their theistic views are wrong?

[/ QUOTE ]

Because the fundies are wrong? Seriously, the difference is quite obvious. The fundies argue that the other religious groups are wrong FOR THE SAME REASON that their own beliefs are right.

Re: Atheism vs. Antitheism
 

[ QUOTE ]

I would like to hear from the antitheists how their approach to faith (or antifaith) is any different than the religious fundies. The fundies try to argue that others beliefs are wrong if they aren't aligned with theirs. How is this different than the antitheists trying to convince others their theistic views are wrong?


[/ QUOTE ]

b/c we're right, and they're wrong obv. Also, we're not trying to enslave anyone, or tell them how to live their lives, or make $$$ from them.

Re: Atheism vs. Antitheism
 

[ QUOTE ]
The primary reason I pose this question is that it seems to me the biggest beef of many athestists is the fundies trying to force their beliefs on them.

I hear/read it time and again. Something to the effect of, "I don't care what you believe or don't believe, just be respectful of my beliefs."

Anyone else see the irony here?

I'm all for healthy debate on the topic. And as some have said, that's what this forum is about.

I just haven't seen that many intelligent arguements. It's all finger pointing and, "you're wrong," or "prove this, if you can't then your point is invalid," etc.

[/ QUOTE ]

Then you must have some amazing powers of selective memory/reading. There are plenty of legitimate debates that go on here, although whether they can be called intelligent is, I suppose, a question of taste.

Re: Atheism vs. Antitheism
 

[ QUOTE ]
The primary reason I pose this question is that it seems to me the biggest beef of many athestists is the fundies trying to force their beliefs on them without evidence

[/ QUOTE ]

FYP

Re: Atheism vs. Antitheism
 

Would you be vocal about the silliness of astrology if wars and laws and moral ethics were derived from people claiming the position of the planets/sun/whatever was somehow an authority on these topics??? What if astrologers taught your children that the rotation of the earth says homosexuality is a sin???

We have become louder lately because the bad actions of people of faith, combined with technology, are an immediate and devastating threat to humanity's continued existence.

I don't care what silly notions people have UNTIL they start making laws based on those notions which actively go against what morality and law should be derived from, survival and quality of life. Not just laws, but big wars. Not just wars, NUCLEAR WINTERS.

I believe war is inevitable, but the immediate threat of humanity's extinction via religious war is what keeps me awake at night. During the cold war, as close as we got to actual nuclear war, both sides kind of understood that nuclear war was VERY BAD and wanted to avoid it, even though we were on the edge. Many fundamental theists would view the complete destruction of a set of people, or the world, as a good thing. This is disastrous and intolerable.

That is not the only reason, but for me, it is the main one.

Re: Atheism vs. Antitheism
 

[ QUOTE ]
Would you be vocal about the silliness of astrology if wars and laws and moral ethics were derived from people claiming the position of the planets/sun/whatever was somehow an authority on these topics??? What if astrologers taught your children that the rotation of the earth says homosexuality is a sin???

We have become louder lately because the bad actions of people of faith, combined with technology, are an immediate and devastating threat to humanity's continued existence.

I don't care what silly notions people have UNTIL they start making laws based on those notions which actively go against what morality and law should be derived from, survival and quality of life. Not just laws, but big wars. Not just wars, NUCLEAR WINTERS.

I believe war is inevitable, but the immediate threat of humanity's extinction via religious war is what keeps me awake at night. During the cold war, as close as we got to actual nuclear war, both sides kind of understood that nuclear war was VERY BAD and wanted to avoid it, even though we were on the edge. Many fundamental theists would view the complete destruction of a set of people, or the world, as a good thing. This is disastrous and intolerable.

That is not the only reason, but for me, it is the main one.

[/ QUOTE ]

Imagine if McNamara was an Armageddonist.

Re: Atheism vs. Antitheism
 

I'm antitheist because 'theology for the masses' ruins society.

Re: Atheism vs. Antitheism
 

Theism becomes a problem for mankind when people like Bush and Blair, when questioned about having the mess in Iraq on their conscience, reply with statements like "I will let God be my judge", and will answer no further questions on the subject.

Blair said this in an interview - basically implying that it doesn't matter what the people think, he only answers to God. Err, thanks for that Tony! Nice way to run peoples lives there!

Is it a fatuous question to ask how many crimes on humanity have been committed in the name of theism, and how many have been committed in the name of atheism?

Re: Atheism vs. Antitheism
 

No, I wouldn't say so. Most atheists are what I'd call apatheist. Like me. I really don't care, and if I go to heaven or end up as carbon, nitrogen and so on in the food chain, it's all okay by me. And you can believe what you like, as long as you don't hurt anyone else.

Re: Atheism vs. Antitheism
 

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No, I wouldn't say so. Most atheists are what I'd call apatheist. Like me. I really don't care, and if I go to heaven or end up as carbon, nitrogen and so on in the food chain, it's all okay by me. And you can believe what you like, as long as you don't hurt anyone else.


[/ QUOTE ]
Dead on for me too. We also realise that if god is good it doesn't matter if we care or not and if god is bad it doesn't matter if we care or not.

Not that it wouldn't be very nice if lifes a fairy tale and we all live happily ever after.

chez

Re: Atheism vs. Antitheism
 

How can I believe X does not exist if I have no theory of what X is supposed to be?

Re: Atheism vs. Antitheism
 

[ QUOTE ]
No, I wouldn't say so. Most atheists are what I'd call apatheist. Like me. I really don't care, and if I go to heaven or end up as carbon, nitrogen and so on in the food chain, it's all okay by me. And you can believe what you like, as long as you don't hurt anyone else.


[/ QUOTE ]

This pretty sums up my attitude towards my own "spirituality" as well. The idea that you need organized religion in order to get to "heaven" is silly to me. If heaven exists, I believe that I'm more likely to get there by living a moral life (ie. by not harming others with my actions), rather than by following a bunch of arbitrary rules.

On the other hand, as others have stated, I wouldn't really care about those who delude themselves by following organized religon, if it wasn't for the fact that they're ruining our society with their backwards attitudes.

Re: Atheism vs. Antitheism
 

I don't personally mind the name "antitheist." I am anti-religion, after all. I think religion is dangerous bullsh*t that reinforces and magnifies humanity's lingering and reflexive tribalism. I am not only anti-religious, but am anti-God, insofar as:

1) I find it impossible to square events on Earth with the presence of a benign creator and

2) belief in God inevitably leads to the advent of religions.

I wish I could be laidback about it, but I frankly find the musty, nonsensical, oppressive, and omnipresent imprint of religion on my daily life to be a real affront. So yeah, I'm not going door to door pamphleteering, but "antitheist" suits me just fine, thanks.

Re: Atheism vs. Antitheism
 

Also, this "atheists are just the same as fundamentalists" argument is not only annoying, but obviously wrong, and makes its proponents look foolish. Is it the intensity of belief that's throwing you off? Intense belief in something that almost certainly doesn't exist and intense belief that that something doesn't exist, or an intense lack of belief in its existence are not the same, although I guess its a convenient argument for people unwilling or unable to choose a side in the battle of ancient desert mysticism vs. science/logic/reason.

Re: Atheism vs. Antitheism
 

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2) belief in God inevitably leads to the advent of religions.

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I disagree with this statement. The belief in a supreme being, in and of itself, does not necessarily lend itself to, or spark the creation of, any religion.

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Also, this "atheists are just the same as fundamentalists" argument is not only annoying, but obviously wrong, and makes its proponents look foolish.

[/ QUOTE ]

My arguement is not that atheists are the same as fundies. I'm asking what others think of my comparison of ANTItheists to fundies in that they are both attempting to force their beliefs on others.

Re: Atheism vs. Antitheism
 

[ QUOTE ]
My arguement is not that atheists are the same as fundies. I'm asking what others think of my comparison of ANTItheists to fundies in that they are both attempting to force their beliefs on others.


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I've never had ANTITHEISTS come to my door to speak to me about atheism.

I've never had antitheists loudly preaching on a street corner to change your ways or you'll go to hell.

I've never had antitheists crying on the front steps of courthouses because they want symbols of their beliefs displayed everywhere.

I've never seen antitheists send out missionaries to other countries to indoctrinate tribesman in their beliefs.

I don't see antitheists starting "Atheist Camps" to indoctrinate children in their beliefs.

There's really no comparison.

Re: Atheism vs. Antitheism
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
2) belief in God inevitably leads to the advent of religions.

[/ QUOTE ]

I disagree with this statement. The belief in a supreme being, in and of itself, does not necessarily lend itself to, or spark the creation of, any religion.

[/ QUOTE ]

No, but belief in a supreme being is obviously a precondition for religions to exist. Which to me is a very good reason to be anti-supreme being.

[ QUOTE ]
Also, this "atheists are just the same as fundamentalists" argument is not only annoying, but obviously wrong, and makes its proponents look foolish.

[/ QUOTE ]

My arguement is not that atheists are the same as fundies. I'm asking what others think of my comparison of ANTItheists to fundies in that they are both attempting to force their beliefs on others.

[/ QUOTE ]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the OP basically labels vocal atheists as "anitheists," and then rhetorically asks how they're different from fundamentalists. Well, besides the fact that we're probably right, I'd say we also differ in that we have no elected officials in Congress and generally don't attempt to impose our will on anyone. I'm curious where you run into these rabid antitheistic types besides on message boards like 2+2.

Re: Atheism vs. Antitheism
 

If you're christian, then you're antitheistic against Zeus, Thor, Baal, etc. We just go a few steps further than you do.

Re: Atheism vs. Antitheism
 

[ QUOTE ]
Correct me if I'm wrong, but the OP basically labels vocal atheists as "anitheists," and then rhetorically asks how they're different from fundamentalists. Well, besides the fact that we're probably right, I'd say we also differ in that we have no elected officials in Congress and generally don't attempt to impose our will on anyone. I'm curious where you run into these rabid antitheistic types besides on message boards like 2+2.

[/ QUOTE ]

FYI - I am the OP.

I'm not trying to lable vocal atheists as antitheists. I see the difference as, "I don't believe in a supreme being" vs. "I don't believe in a supreme being and you shouldn't believe in a supreme being either."

And, I'm not trying to level my comparison outside this forum either. As another poster has said, antitheists don't go door to door.

Re: Atheism vs. Antitheism
 

[ QUOTE ]
If you're christian, then you're antitheistic against Zeus, Thor, Baal, etc. We just go a few steps further than you do.

[/ QUOTE ]

FWIW, I'm not a christian and have no problem with anyone else's beliefs insomuch as they are willing to be respectful of mine.

The responses I've read thus far have pretty much answered my question. It seems the antitheists get fairly annoyed when compared to the fundies in this regard. Thou doth protest too much.

Re: Atheism vs. Antitheism
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If you're christian, then you're antitheistic against Zeus, Thor, Baal, etc. We just go a few steps further than you do.

[/ QUOTE ]

FWIW, I'm not a christian and have no problem with anyone else's beliefs insomuch as they are willing to be respectful of mine.


[/ QUOTE ] And there's the rub. Fundie christians are not respectful of my belief that everyone deserves respect. I believe that using a few hundred cells to save lives is a good thing. Fundies think god wants people to suffer.

[ QUOTE ]

The responses I've read thus far have pretty much answered my question. It seems the antitheists get fairly annoyed when compared to the fundies in this regard. Thou doth protest too much.

[/ QUOTE ]

Which brings up another difference. Theists either can't read or can't reason.

Re: Atheism vs. Antitheism
 

[ QUOTE ]
FWIW, I'm not a christian and have no problem with anyone else's beliefs insomuch as they are willing to be respectful of mine.

[/ QUOTE ]

What kind of fantasy world are you living in where religious people are respectful of each others' beliefs? This is the whole point, since, as misguided as I think most religious folks are, if they were respectful of myself and other people, I wouldn't care what they believed. The same way I don't care if people believe in astrology, since astrology-believers don't seem to feel the need to proselytize or shape the world in their image.


[ QUOTE ]
The responses I've read thus far have pretty much answered my question. It seems the antitheists get fairly annoyed when compared to the fundies in this regard. Thou doth protest too much.

[/ QUOTE ]

Right. Or it could just be an annoying comparison. Try this--I'm comparing people who start threads like this to mentally-handicapped people. If you deny it, there must be some truth in it....

Re: Atheism vs. Antitheism
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Correct me if I'm wrong, but the OP basically labels vocal atheists as "anitheists," and then rhetorically asks how they're different from fundamentalists. Well, besides the fact that we're probably right, I'd say we also differ in that we have no elected officials in Congress and generally don't attempt to impose our will on anyone. I'm curious where you run into these rabid antitheistic types besides on message boards like 2+2.

[/ QUOTE ]

FYI - I am the OP.

I'm not trying to lable vocal atheists as antitheists. I see the difference as, "I don't believe in a supreme being" vs. "I don't believe in a supreme being and you shouldn't believe in a supreme being either."

And, I'm not trying to level my comparison outside this forum either. As another poster has said, antitheists don't go door to door.

[/ QUOTE ]

We call this a strawman.

Re: Atheism vs. Antitheism
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If you're christian, then you're antitheistic against Zeus, Thor, Baal, etc. We just go a few steps further than you do.

[/ QUOTE ]

FWIW, I'm not a christian and have no problem with anyone else's beliefs insomuch as they are willing to be respectful of mine.

The responses I've read thus far have pretty much answered my question. It seems the antitheists get fairly annoyed when compared to the fundies in this regard. Thou doth protest too much.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ooh, and we call this Poisoning the Well. You are on a roll!

Re: Atheism vs. Antitheism
 

I'm against Christianity becaus I think it's a superficial, petty, and deeply malevolent belief system. I'm against organized religion in general to a much milder degree, because I think it encourages conformity and discourages creativity and critical thinking. I have respect for individual religion (which I'd rather distinguish as "spirituality").

Re: Atheism vs. Antitheism
 

I just thought of a good analogy that deals with the point in the OP.

I enjoy sports a lot, especially the popular American ones. But I realized when I was about 14 that the ridiculous fanaticism that surrounds, say, NFL football is completely irrational and aburd. These people legitimately believe that their team is the only really great team, the only team worthy of worship (fans) and, regardless of the objective evidence to the contrary (or at least, lack of positive evidence) they persist with this belief for their entire lives. They celebrate the successes and glaze over the failures, except as a chance to lament fortune or demonize the dreaded "rivals." It really, truly has much of the makings of religious belief. They even tend to root for teams solely on the basis of having been born there, and their parents having rooted for same.

But there is a difference. WHO CARES that they do this? Its embarassing, I suppose, but its basically harmless. I might give my dad a hard time when his team loses a big game, but I don't go out of my way to disabuse him of his silly 'faith.' Because it doesn't hurt anyone.

It is ONLY when this type of thing gets out of hand and starts causing suffering that it deserves criticism. People who won't allow children to marry fans of other teams would be an example. Fights breaking out due to fan loyalty would be another. These things probably don't happen often, and definitely far less often than religiously based incidents, but they do happen. And THAT is when people like me (and presumably the rest of the "antitheists" as you call them) feel it IS appropriate to disabuse these people of their silly fanhood.

Btw, this analogy became very legitimate to me today as I was watching a special about the moving of the Baltimore Colts in 1984. It was amazing to me. People were sobbing in their cars, staying home from work, really breaking down, because their team left in the middle of the night. Those who say that people NEED religion and their lives would be so much worse if we convinced them that it was all fake probably have a point. But people NEED football teams then, as well. These people are truly distraught about it. It really is the worst day in their entire lives. Some people can find anything to pour their entire lives into. It doesn't lend much to the credibility of football fanaticism, though.

Re: Atheism vs. Antitheism
 

Love your post. I think its a great analogy. And I have often feared sports fans.

I work in the media and somewhat worked on a documentary on Sports Fans Gone Wild kind of thing. Believe me, it regularly leads to fights and much more violence. I don't think its as bad as in Europe where a soccer goalie who loses a game is in seriously jeopardy of being murdered and riot police are needed to keep fans of opposing teams from killing each other.

The blind devotion is very similar to religion.

I wanted to ramble more on this but I have to fly. Later all.

Antithesis
 

[ QUOTE ]
An antitheist would be someone that believes there is no god and doesn't want anyone else to believe in god either, thus introducing arguement upon arguement trying to convince the theists that they are wrong.

[/ QUOTE ]Actually you just made that up.

People who believe that there is most probably no God behind the curtain have no interest of starting an "anti-God" religion of their own -- although to the eyes of the infuriated faithful atheism does look like some kind of hostile religion.

Atheists or agnosticists will often engage the faithful in debates about faith or religion but that's the extent to which they will try to "proselytize". On the other hand, religious fundamentalists are quite intolerant of anyone who deviates from "true faith" or is indeed a non-believer. And they will grasp at every opportunity to legislate or generally impose their beliefs on others.

There is no comparison. It's not even close. Take a cold shower.

Mickey Brausch

Re: Antithesis
 

Is it ok for me to believe that my afterlife will be utopia if I can make 1,000,000,000 revolutions before I die? Yes.

Is it ok for me to establish a regime and force everyone to spin 1,000 times every day? No.

If I believe I have to make 1,000,000,000 revolutions to make it to Utopia yet I do not let that affect my choice of representatives (as in, my agenda does not consist of making others spin 1,000 times every day) is that okay? Yes.


Important distinctions.

Re: Antithesis
 

It seems like that atheist fellow who sued to have God dropped from the pledge of allegiance and other’s calling themselves atheists that have pushed to have the ten commandments statues taken away from court houses and manger scenes taken out of public library displays, act like religious zealots. Or is this just the media portraying them that way? What purpose are they ( the atheists ) accomplishing?

Re: Antithesis
 

[ QUOTE ]
It seems like that atheist fellow who sued to have God dropped from the pledge of allegiance and other’s calling themselves atheists that have pushed to have the ten commandments statues taken away from court houses and manger scenes taken out of public library displays, act like religious zealots. Or is this just the media portraying them that way? What purpose are they ( the atheists ) accomplishing?

[/ QUOTE ]

Mangers and the word "God" in the pledge of allegiance I'm willing to live with, not because I think they're right in principle but because they're not worth bothering. But when we're saying "We don't want lawmakers promoting a list of commandments that start with 'Worship the Judeo-Christian God'," that's hardly religious zealotry.