Not sure if I played correct on flop, turn, or river
 

Poker Stars
Limit Omaha Ring game
Limit: $10/$20
10 players
Converter

Pre-flop: (10 players) hero is MP3 with J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
2 folds, UTG+2 calls, 2 folds, hero calls, 2 folds, SB calls, BB checks.

Flop: 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (4SB, 4 players)
SB checks, <font color="#cc0000">BB bets</font>, UTG+2 folds, hero calls, SB calls.

Turn: T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (3.5BB, 3 players)
SB checks, <font color="#cc0000">BB bets</font>, hero calls, SB calls.

River: T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (6.5BB, 3 players)
SB checks, <font color="#cc0000">BB bets</font>, hero calls, SB calls.

Results:
Final pot: 9.5BB

Re: Not sure if I played correct on flop, turn, or river
 

Could have raised the turn, since there wasn't a low and you still had a powerful redraw.

It's not clear at all if BB has anything real on the river since the hand was played so passively.

Re: Not sure if I played correct on flop, turn, or river
 

Fold flop. Low is out, your pot equity is too small to be paying to chase for diamonds.
Turn is marginal. If you know SB will call, I guess your big flush/wrap draw gives you enough outs to the high to pay for another card.
River... interesting decision. I fold here; not only are there eleven cards that have to be totally absent from my opponents' hands in order for me to have the high, but if either one has a pair in hand I also don't have the high. Still, your call would be correct if we assume both opponents have A2xx; then they only have four unknown cards that could match the board, and the chance of us being good for high rises to about one in three.

Re: Not sure if I played correct on flop, turn, or river
 

Could have raised the turn, since there wasn't a low and you still had a powerful redraw.

Low is out already on the flop. Betting (or rather raising) turn looks like a mistake, since SB might fold and I'd rather have them put in some more money. Anyway I think even with the huge high draw you're still below 33% pot equity, so even if we knew the SB would call I don't think this is a good spot to be pumping the pot.

Re: Not sure if I played correct on flop, turn, or river
 

[ QUOTE ]
River... interesting decision. I fold here; not only are there eleven cards that have to be totally absent from my opponents' hands in order for me to have the high, but if either one has a pair in hand I also don't have the high. Still, your call would be correct if we assume both opponents have A2xx; then they only have four unknown cards that could match the board, and the chance of us being good for high rises to about one in three.

[/ QUOTE ]

this logic will get you killed in limit 08 games

Re: Not sure if I played correct on flop, turn, or river
 

Which part of the logic? Estimating the chance of being good for high based purely on the chance of X cards being in Y spots? I would tend to agree, after all you have a villain who has bet every street - his cards are not some random pile. But I'm still not clear - do you agree that this is a fold, or are you arguing for a call?

Re: Not sure if I played correct on flop, turn, or river
 

i wouldn't even consider folding in this spot

Re: Not sure if I played correct on flop, turn, or river
 

Never mind, I've been up too long. I'm completely braindead.

Re: Not sure if I played correct on flop, turn, or river
 

when you make the nut straight on the turn &amp; are freerolling the nut [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] draw, that would be a good time to raise. you couldn't talk me into folding w/o a huge amount of river action.

Re: Not sure if I played correct on flop, turn, or river
 

Fold flop.

Tuco.

Re: Not sure if I played correct on flop, turn, or river
 

[ QUOTE ]
Fold flop.

Tuco.

[/ QUOTE ]

i couldn't ever imagine doing this for 1SB against 2 opponents in a limit game, esp. at these limits.

Re: Not sure if I played correct on flop, turn, or river
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Fold flop.

Tuco.

[/ QUOTE ]

i couldn't ever imagine doing this for 1SB against 2 opponents in a limit game, esp. at these limits.

[/ QUOTE ]

What do the limits have to do with it?

Omaha is about scooping. You cannot scoop this pot. You called to flop big cards and it came with three babies. Fold and wait, cause there will be another hand in about 45 seconds. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Tuco.

Re: Not sure if I played correct on flop, turn, or river
 

scooping is nice, but getting 1/2 will keep you alive till you actually scoop sumthing...

...i wouldn't call raise otf, but calling 1 small bet is pretty much ok...

...raising the turn is also viable, because you either make some one pay too much to draw to too few outs or you lock your share of the pot...

...also on good days you stumble in to 2 lows with no outs to scoop

Re: Not sure if I played correct on flop, turn, or river
 

[ QUOTE ]
What do the limits have to do with it?

Omaha is about scooping. You cannot scoop this pot. You called to flop big cards and it came with three babies. Fold and wait, cause there will be another hand in about 45 seconds.

Tuco.


[/ QUOTE ]

limits have a lot to do with a game. the lower the limits, the worse my opponents are going to play on average. i don't expect players at this limit to be able to really punish me for drawing to a 1way hand like a good high limit player can. on top of that, too many idiots at this limit are chasing non nut hands or 1way hands themselves where the call is almost always going to be profitable.. often times you are going to see both players chasing a lo, maybe with pair + lo. at any rate, I'm pretty certain as long as you know how to play the rest of the hand past the flop, the flop call is +ev.

Re: Not sure if I played correct on flop, turn, or river
 

How is chasing 1/2 a pot with 3 way action +ev?

Re: Not sure if I played correct on flop, turn, or river
 

[ QUOTE ]
i wouldn't even consider folding in this spot

[/ QUOTE ]Habib - At least consider folding.

What it boils down to is if Hero stays in the hand and can get in a big bet on the river called by both opponents when he makes his hand, he has a slight + e.v. (Or if Hero makes his draw on the turn and can get in a raise, called by both opponents Hero also has a slight + e.v.)

But if Hero stays in the hand and cannot get in a big bet called by both opponents when he makes his hand, then he has a slight - e.v.

I think Hero should stay in the hand too, because Hero has position here, and it should not be clear to his opponents that he necessarily has made his draw if the straight or flush becomes enabled. Thus I think he can probably get that one bet from both opponents, and maybe more.

But if they're both real tight on the river, maybe not.

Can I get that extra bet when I make my hand? That would be my consideration. And that is why I'd at least consider folding to this flop bet.

Buzz

Re: Not sure if I played correct on flop, turn, or river
 

buzz- we were talking about the river, i agree that the flop call is iffy, but i believe bartlog was advocating that OP should be folding the river.

Re: Not sure if I played correct on flop, turn, or river
 

I did, but only because I'd been up for over thirty hours and didn't see the straight :-P

Still, the flop is a fold. Maybe if there were 10SB instead of 4SB I'd do the math and see what sort of value there is in chasing, but in this case the pot is so small that it's clearly not worth it.

Re: Not sure if I played correct on flop, turn, or river
 

Definitely fold the flop. This situation doesn't pass the "Am I ahead of random cards?" test.

Omaha Hi/Lo Simulation
139,410 trials (Randomized)
board: 7d8d3s
Hand Pot equity Scoops Wins Hi Ties Hi Wins Lo Ties Lo
Ad9sKdJs 28.83% 6,422 72,516 2,508 0 0
**** 35.58% 14,908 31,839 2,147 60,023 5,247
**** 35.59% 14,943 31,681 2,136 60,223 5,247

If you continue playing because you have pot odds to call assuming opponents have random cards, then you need to find a new game (like bingo).