4th Street at the 40 Game
 

This hand came up in a live 40-80 game. It was folded to me in the cutoff and I opened with the 8 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]6 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] looking at tight players in the blind. The player on the button, who plays many hands and goes too far with them, made it three bets. The blinds folded, I called and we took the flop headsup.

The dealer burned and spread a flop of 7 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]9 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]2 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]. I checked, my opponent bet and I called. What are your plans for a brick turn card? A random diamond? An offsuit picture card? Assume it would be unlikely for this opponent to lay down something like AK to a turn checkraise, but he MIGHT fold if he was sure he was beat (say, the turn came the A [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] and you checkraised, he may fold QQ). I'm just looking for opinions on how people approach this hand against a loose player who won't often be moved off his hand except under certain circumstances (and possibly not even then).

Would anyone prefer bet-three betting or check-raising the flop instead? If so, why?

Thanks,
Jeff

Re: 4th Street at the 40 Game
 

hey jeff, against this particular player there is nothing wrong with check/call, check/call, check/fold

Re: 4th Street at the 40 Game
 

Against this type of opponent I tend to play str8-forward, get your money in when you have the best of it, poker. I call on a non-yahtzee turn and chk/rz my yahtzee river. (or chk/fold if I miss)

Re: 4th Street at the 40 Game
 

[ QUOTE ]
Against this type of opponent I tend to play str8-forward, get your money in when you have the best of it, poker.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree with this except I'd c/r a diamond or I paired on the turn.

Re: 4th Street at the 40 Game
 

Before we can consider the idea of check/raising the flop, we first have to ask ourselves what specific hands are we trying to attack? The answer is King high & Queen high.(If the villain has Jack high he probaby has a straight draw so I didnt include this hand) Will the villain have K-high or Q-high often enough to make check/raising the flop attractive? I dont think so.

And since it has been established that this guy will not fold Ax to a turn check/raise, it looks like playing passively every street unless we hit is the only line here.

Re: 4th Street at the 40 Game
 

Any one like donking a diamond J or 10?

Re: 4th Street at the 40 Game
 

I think c/r'ing is probably best if he can fold sometimes... if it's an Ad and u c/r and he calls you can usually give up on the river i assume unless you hit against this guy.... and i assume if he calls a c/r you can pretty much open muck the river unless you hit....

if he 3bets something like AK on an A turn, which i doubt i wouldn't do it... but if he will then i would just c/c and fold u/i...

i don't like c/r'ing this flop against someone like this cause they will see the turn with a whole lot of hands and raise if they hit and rarely fold to a 3bet.... bet/3-betting also opens you up to a 4bet in the cases he hit a monster...

he could bet flop and slow down on the turn... and that may or may not set up a bluff on the river depending on your read... if he tends to take hands too far, he will be bluffing the turn as well with air alot of the time and you can get him to fold a lot of trashy hands which are also ahead of you...

but if it's gonna take some patriot missiles to move him off of something like 55 or a 7 or A-high on most broadway turns then playing straightforward is probably best....

Re: 4th Street at the 40 Game
 

[ QUOTE ]
Before we can consider the idea of check/raising the flop, we first have to ask ourselves what specific hands are we trying to attack? The answer is King high & Queen high.(If the villain has Jack high he probaby has a straight draw so I didnt include this hand) Will the villain have K-high or Q-high often enough to make check/raising the flop attractive? I dont think so.

And since it has been established that this guy will not fold Ax to a turn check/raise, it looks like playing passively every street unless we hit is the only line here.

[/ QUOTE ]

With a possible 14 outs against a lot of ace high hands I don't mind putting in money on the flop hoping to sometimes fold out a non-ace-high hand. I checkraise this flop all day.

-DeathDonkey

Re: 4th Street at the 40 Game
 

Yea, I didn't really think this guy was the type to reraise without a hand like AQ, AK or a pair. Maybe AJ. I don't think he's three-balling with something like K8s, etc. But I see what you're saying. And by folding, you mean on the turn right? I don't see anyone laying down anything for one extra bet on the flop there. So I see the flop checkraise as more for value though it can set-up a fold on the turn sometimes if he reraised light. But I don't think he did necessarily. I hope that makes sense - I am very hung over and the screen is kinda blurry. [img]/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img]

P.S. See you in Vegas?

Jeff

Re: 4th Street at the 40 Game
 

[ QUOTE ]
I agree with this except I'd c/r a diamond or I paired on the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

With plans to VB the pair on the river and bluff busted?

Jeff

Re: 4th Street at the 40 Game
 

Any thoughts on checkraising an ace or king, particularly a diamond, on the turn and hoping he may fold a smaller pocket pair? Plus, if it's a diamond, you have a lot of outs if called (and if he does call, you can give up and not bluff the river bc he will never be folding there). Ramblings...

Jeff

RESULTS
 

Well...all this analysis turned out to be unecessary as the turn card was the 10 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]. I checked, he bet, I raised and he quickly made it three bets. I took it to four bets and then he seemed to consider taking it to five bets before calling. The river blanked, I bet and he called. He told me he turned a set of tens. Thanks for the responses.

Jeff

Re: 4th Street at the 40 Game
 

[ QUOTE ]
With plans to VB the pair on the river and bluff busted?

[/ QUOTE ]

I saw the results. NH. River action is player dependent. If he's type to call the c/r with missed overs and hope to hit, then I'd barrel a brick river with a busted hand. Not sure I'd VB though as I'd have 8's or 6's and he'd have to call with worse.

Re: 4th Street at the 40 Game
 

[ QUOTE ]
Not sure I'd VB though as I'd have 8's or 6's and he'd have to call with worse.

[/ QUOTE ]

If he called the turn with something like AK, he could easily call the river with it but check behind if you check. If you check, he will valuebet bigger pairs but will not raise if you bet. Ok, I have to go to work now.

Jeff

Re: 4th Street at the 40 Game
 

[ QUOTE ]
Yea, I didn't really think this guy was the type to reraise without a hand like AQ, AK or a pair. Maybe AJ. I don't think he's three-balling with something like K8s, etc. But I see what you're saying. And by folding, you mean on the turn right? I don't see anyone laying down anything for one extra bet on the flop there.

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
With a possible 14 outs against a lot of ace high hands I don't mind putting in money on the flop hoping to sometimes fold out a non-ace-high hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

AJ he probably won't wont fold to a flop c/r... but he might fold lots of non A high-non made hands right away - other than that the goal is to get a fold from AK on the turn.

Another slightly cheaper option is to donk into the player, but that will probably not be as effective if he is going to call down with A high overs to the river.

TT [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

Re: 4th Street at the 40 Game
 

[ QUOTE ]
Any thoughts on checkraising an ace or king, particularly a diamond, on the turn and hoping he may fold a smaller pocket pair? Plus, if it's a diamond, you have a lot of outs if called (and if he does call, you can give up and not bluff the river bc he will never be folding there). Ramblings...

Jeff

[/ QUOTE ]

I like this idea vs tags who are trying to play well, who just dont get that bet/folding a player like you HU is a very bad idea. If you think this guy is going to make this type of mistake on the turn, then I say go for it, but your description in your OP made me believe that this guy wont make this type of fold, but you were there Jeff, so you probably have the best feel for whether this play will work or not against him.

Re: 4th Street at the 40 Game
 

[ QUOTE ]
And by folding, you mean on the turn right? I don't see anyone laying down anything for one extra bet on the flop there. So I see the flop checkraise as more for value though it can set-up a fold on the turn sometimes if he reraised light.

Jeff

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah I think Deathdonkey meant the turn or the river since no one is folding anything on the flop. And if you believe this guy will fold A-high somewhere along the way then I would definitely check/raise the flop and I would definitely fire UI on the river If I felt he would take AK/AQ that far and then fold if he doesnt hit. The reason I implied that I would check/call the flop and turn is cuz I got the impression that this guy will not fold Ace high no matter what you do.

Re: 4th Street at the 40 Game
 

80% for Vegas right now...will know next week.

-DeathDonkey

Re: 4th Street at the 40 Game
 

[ QUOTE ]
80% for Vegas right now...will know next week.

-DeathDonkey

[/ QUOTE ]

Rotation game waiting. AJ at Wynn wants us to play Badugi so he can learn, unfortunately it also means low limit (at least for a little bit):(

TT [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

Re: 4th Street at the 40 Game
 

jeffage, i think you should bet and 3bet the turn.