Did I play this one correctly?
 

Absolute Poker
Limit Omaha Ring game
Limit: $2/$4
8 players
Converter

Pre-flop: (8 players) steamfish is SB with J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]
UTG folds, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls, 3 folds, steamfish calls, BB checks.

Flop: 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (4SB, 4 players)
<font color="#cc0000">steamfish bets</font>, BB folds, <font color="#cc0000">UTG+1 raises</font>, MP1 folds, <font color="#cc0000">steamfish 3-bets</font>, UTG+1 calls.

Turn: T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (5BB, 2 players)
<font color="#cc0000">steamfish bets</font>, UTG+1 calls.

River: A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (7BB, 2 players)
steamfish checks, <font color="#cc0000">UTG+1 bets</font>, steamfish calls.

Results:
Final pot: 9BB

He showed me a wheel and scooped.

Re: Did I play this one correctly?
 

The worst you could be facing on the flop is an outside draw, and anybody holding A2 with an emergency low might stick around for one small bet, but certainly not a three bet. Wouldn't a flat call to draw in more low-hunters and a raise on the turn make more sense?

Re: Did I play this one correctly?
 

low hunters still have a decent draw against you, you want to win this pot on the flop.

Re: Did I play this one correctly?
 

steamboatin -

1st betting round:
You complete with a marginal starting hand in the small blind. Fine.

2nd betting round:
You flop a set of queens and bet. Fine.

Then UTG+1 raises and when the action gets around to you again, you find yourself heads-up with UTG+1. At this point I would not make it three bets. (I don't see any point in making it three bets - because I can't imagine UTG+1 folding for another small bet).

"What cards might UTG+1 hold to raise my flop bet?" That's what I'd be wondering.

And then I'd just call the UTG+1's raise. I think you're the under-dog in a heads up contest with a hand that limps before the flop and then raises your flop bet.

Whatever cards UTG+1 does hold, you're not going to blow him away with your re-raise.

3rd betting round:
I go into check/call mode and hope for a free card. Ten cards pair the board and a non-spade king gives you a Broadway. that's 13 cards that are good for you on the river, while you can't much like any of the 31 other cards, although some of them do minimul damage.

However, I don't think your 3rd round bet is terrible.

4th betting round:
You had some bad luck here. An ace is the worst possible river card for you.

You check in case UTG+1 has the wheel or the Broadway - and then you call UTG+1 in case he doesn't.

That's perfect, holding the damage to a minimum. Well played on the fourth betting round!

Mainly I think you generally do better with top flopped set (and nothing much else) if you back off when your second round bet gets raised.

Good on the fisrt betting round, good on the last betting round. Too aggressive with a high only hand and no good read on your opponent on the second and third betting rounds.

You asked.

Buzz

Re: Did I play this one correctly?
 

I go back and forth on how to play this. My general rule is to check a hand like this on the flop. Whenever you have top set and the board has two to a wheel. I also don't bet if there is to to a flush.

I don't think there is anyway you can get an A4, A5, or 45 to fold in this spot. Even if you check raise. You might be able to get junky lows in this spot to fold.

I also generally want callers, ie the low chasers.

The generally bad scenario is that if you bet and someone raises then it's likely heads up. If any low card comes on the turn they are no freerolling you.

On the turn is when I'm looking to tax these people. If the board pairs or now low comes then you figure out whether to lead out or check raise.

Now once you lead off the flop and your raised. That screams wheel wrap to me. Slow down unless you make the nuts.

Just my thoughts

Re: Did I play this one correctly?
 

[ QUOTE ]
3rd betting round:
I go into check/call mode and hope for a free card. Ten cards pair the board and a non-spade king gives you a Broadway. that's 13 cards that are good for you on the river, while you can't much like any of the 31 other cards, although some of them do minimul damage.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why c/c with the nuts? I understand checking if you're going for a c/r after putting him on a low draw, but I don't understand check calling to get a free card when you have the "turn nuts."

Re: Did I play this one correctly?
 

Buzz, why do you think AQQJ is a marginal hand? Given the situation, unraised pot and 4 players to the flop, I think complete is a no-brainer.

On the flop, hero is underdog against A45, but I wouldn't put UTG+1 on that just because he raised. Not yet.

I would definately continue betting when the safe turn card hit. And you are ahead of anything but A45 and a broadway card(J/Q/K) and a flush draw.

Not much you can do on the river. c/c and pray for half of the pot.

Re: Did I play this one correctly?
 

Never worry about hurting my feelings, I am a big boy and if I ask for feedback, I can take it with no hard feelings at all.

My thought was I am in the lead either set over set or set over draw. I wanted to charge him to draw.(is this a holdem hangover that needs work?) His raise folded out the other player (If I remember correctly) so my three bet didn't chase any low draws away (as if it would in this game).

I have played 220 hands against villian. He is VPIP 27.7% preflop raise 3.18% and is 4.16 BB/100 winner over that 220 hands.

Re: Did I play this one correctly?
 

Agree about not 3-betting the flop. But check/calling the turn seems like a mistake. It's true that there are a lot of scary cards, but assuming that our opponent is holding A456 suited in spades seems a little paranoid (we can be quite sure he has a non-spade ace in his hand, so two of his other three cards would have to be spades). I would regard any high card and any board pairing as safe for us, with sevens and eights still allowing us to split. That's 21 scoop cards for us and eight more that split; opponent has more like a dozen scoop outs. Of course he could have the spades, but he could also have A334 or some similar hand that we're in much better shape against.

Re: Did I play this one correctly?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
3rd betting round:
I go into check/call mode and hope for a free card. Ten cards pair the board and a non-spade king gives you a Broadway. that's 13 cards that are good for you on the river, while you can't much like any of the 31 other cards, although some of them do minimul damage.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why c/c with the nuts? I understand checking if you're going for a c/r after putting him on a low draw, but I don't understand check calling to get a free card when you have the "turn nuts."

[/ QUOTE ]

No kidding. You have most hands crushed here, and almost all hands beat, so you put fresh money in the pot. It's not like you can fold the river for a single bet anyway. I could understand a check raise but a check call doesn't make a whole lot of sense.

Re: Did I play this one correctly?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Why c/c with the nuts? I understand checking if you're going for a c/r after putting him on a low draw, but I don't understand check calling to get a free card when you have the "turn nuts."

[/ QUOTE ]4ever - I understand you're disagreeing with me, but you've asked a very good question.

And this is the thing about limit-Omaha-8. Unless you have the stone cold unbeatable nuts, it's not over until the river. You cannot protect a flopped set when someone raises your flop bet.

If you could make a pot sized raise, maybe you could protect your flopped set against some draws, but it's going to usually come down to whether a straight or flush in the hands of your opponent will win or your full house or quads will win.

In this particular case there are two wheel cards on the flop. With four high cards in Hero's hand, low is very likely. Somebody with the nut low, or even just two non-paired cards in the two to six or ace to five range is close to free-rolling Hero.

What kind of a hand is worth a raise here? (Hero already has top set, so Villain can't have that). Think about it. It's very scary. I actually chose a couple of what I thought were logical hands for the raise and simulated. Hero was a big underdog. Having no low draw after this flop is a big disadvantage.

At any rate, back to your excellent question: You can flop the nuts in Omaha-8 and still be the underdog. And although Hero can't know it for certain while he's playing the hand, because he cannot see Villain's cards, I think Hero probably is the underdog to someone who raises him after this particular flop.

That's part of the irony of Omaha-8. You can flop the nuts and still be the under-dog. Happens all the time!

Buzz

Re: Did I play this one correctly?
 

[ QUOTE ]
why do you think AQQJ is a marginal hand?

[/ QUOTE ]Piocet - I think AsQhQcJc is a marginal starting hand in Omha-8 because it misses too many flops and doesn't go on to become a winner often enough when it does connect to the flop (as here).

Your question is better than my unpithy, generalized answer.

If the ace, instead of the queen, was suited to the jack (or if the ace was suited to the queen), then I'd think the hand was playable from all positions as a starting hand. In other words, in my humble opinion, this hand needs a suited ace to be better than marginal.

As a rainbow hand, without even the queen suited to the jack, I'd think AQQJ was less than marginal. Better folded.

But the way things are, I think AsQhQcJc as a starting hand is marginal. What I mean by marginal is the hand is in the gray area between playable and foldable.

What to do depends a lot on the particular game and opponents, but in general, I’m going to probably play starting hands I think are “marginal” when I’m on the button. I’m also going to generally complete for a half bet from the small blind with “marginal starting hands.” I’m also going to generally defend the big blind with “marginal” starting hands. I might play them other times, for example if I hadn’t played a hand for a while and didn’t like the effect I thought that might be having on my table image. (Poker is a game of deception).

You may not fully appreciate not playing hands with a pair of queens until, for the most part, you stop playing them. And then you'll feel good when you fold the queens and watch how you would have lost with them.

If you run a series of simulations that includes this hand, although this hand will win more than average against eight random hands, it doesn't win as much more as many various other hands will. In other words it doesn’t have as good prospects as many other starting hands.

I realize that various well respected authors advise you can play any hand with four cards above ten, or something of the sort. But rightly or wrongly, I disagree. I think you get stuck with many hands containing four cards above ten. My basis is actual playing experience and simulations.

Some think you can easily get away from hands with all cards above a ten spot after the flop. But if the flop has a queen, as here, it's not so easy to get away from after all. And then if the board doesn't pair on the turn or river, you'll most often be looking down the barrel of a bet from someone with a very logical possible straight, just as happened here.

Poor Steamboatin did take a bad beat this time - after one of the worst possible cards on the river. Steamboatin had no luck at all here. Tough and discouraging. But it goes with the territory when you play a starting hand with a pair of queens. When they don't improve (by the board pairing), then at the showdown there overwhelmingly will be a flush or a straight possible - usually more than one.

At a typically loose limit table, when somebody indicates strength on the flop (as with a raise), I think you treat a flopped set of queens as a drawing hand, needing the board to pair to have a probable winner. Hero can take a stab at the pot after he flops the set of queens, but then when someone plays back, in a limit game, I think Hero needs to back off. In a limit game, Hero can't realistically knock a good straight draw out of the pot, especially if the hand with the straight draw also has a low or a low draw. That’s just the way it is.

[ QUOTE ]
Given the situation, unraised pot and 4 players to the flop, I think complete is a no-brainer.

[/ QUOTE ]I agree hero should complete.

[ QUOTE ]
On the flop, hero is underdog against A45, but I wouldn't put UTG+1 on that just because he raised. Not yet.

[/ QUOTE ]Me neither. But I'd be very wary of the possibility.

[ QUOTE ]
I would definately continue betting when the safe turn card hit.

[/ QUOTE ]The ten at first looks like a good card for Hero. Villain doesn't make low and no straight or flush is yet enabled. However, after the ten, there are only 13 cards that help Hero. All the other 31 cards possibly help Villain in some way or other. (Of course, Villain can't have everything, so Hero should stay in the hand, even when he doesn’t improve).

My best guess would be that Villain's 2nd round raise was a semi-bluff. He probably simply has good prospects after this flop. Nobody can use all three cards in this flop to make a straight or better for high, or an eight or better low. But that can all change on the very next card, or if not then, on the river. I honestly think if we could see Villain’s cards, we could see that Villain actually is the favorite, in spite of the fact that Hero has the current nuts after the flop and also after the turn.

Buzz

Re: Did I play this one correctly?
 

Here is the raw hand history. It was easy to find, in 2700+ hands I have played aqqj twice.

STAGE #541033886: OMAHA HI/LO NORMAL $2/$4 - 2007-01-10 16:26:47 (ET)
Table: CASPIAN ST. (Real Money) Seat #1 is the dealer
Seat 1 - BRUTUS51 ($167.67 in chips)
Seat 2 - Hero ($24.79 in chips)
Seat 3 - JULIEFPC ($36 in chips)
Seat 4 - BONDS444LIFE ($37.38 in chips)
Seat 5 - MRKNISH ($68.75 in chips)
Seat 6 - BEN BROKER ($85.76 in chips)
Seat 7 - HAPPYMEALS ($108.25 in chips)
Seat 8 - DOCTORTOOTH ($85.39 in chips)
Seat 9 - OGRE_AK ($74.52 in chips)
Hero - Posts small blind $1
JULIEFPC - Posts big blind $2
OGRE_AK - sitout (wait for BB)
*** POCKET CARDS ***
Dealt to hero [Jc Qh As Qc]
BONDS444LIFE - Folds
MRKNISH - Calls $2
BEN BROKER - Calls $2
HAPPYMEALS - Folds
DOCTORTOOTH - Folds
BRUTUS51 - Folds
HERO - Calls $1
JULIEFPC - Checks
*** FLOP *** [2h Qd 3s]
Hero - Bets $2
JULIEFPC - Folds
MRKNISH - Raises $4 to $4
BEN BROKER - Folds
Hero - Raises $4 to $6
MRKNISH - Calls $2
*** TURN *** [2h Qd 3s] [10s]
Hero - Bets $4
MRKNISH - Calls $4
*** RIVER *** [2h Qd 3s 10s] [Ac]
Hero - Checks
MRKNISH - Bets $4
Hero - Calls $4
*** SHOW DOWN ***
MRKNISH - Shows [Ah 4d 5d 3d] (Straight, ace to five)
Hero - Mucks
MRKNISH Collects $34.25 from main pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total Pot($36) | Rake ($1.75)
Board [2h Qd 3s 10s Ac]
Seat 1: BRUTUS51 (dealer) Folded on the POCKET CARDS
Seat 2: Hero (small blind) HI: [Mucked] [Jc Qh As Qc]
Seat 3: JULIEFPC (big blind) Folded on the FLOP
Seat 4: BONDS444LIFE Folded on the POCKET CARDS
Seat 5: MRKNISH won Total ($34.25) HI:($17.13) with Straight, ace to five [Ah 4d 5d 3d - P:5d,P:4d,B:3s,B:2h,B:Ac] LO:($17.12) [B:Ac,B:2h,B:3s,P:4d,P:5d]
Seat 6: BEN BROKER Folded on the FLOP
Seat 7: HAPPYMEALS Folded on the POCKET CARDS
Seat 8: DOCTORTOOTH Folded on the POCKET CARDS

Re: Did I play this one correctly?
 

[ QUOTE ]
My thought was I am in the lead either set over set or set over draw. I wanted to charge him to draw.

[/ QUOTE ]Steamboatin - Sounds reasonable, and you did that when you made your original bet.

But then when Villain raised, although you should have thought the raise a semi-bluff, the ironic thing about Omaha-8 is somebody semi-bluffing is often the favorite.

(That makes semi-bluffing in Omaha-8 very correct under many, perhaps most circumstances. You don't have as good a chance to win the pot as in Texas hold 'em, but you might actually be the favorite!)

Your hand greatly suffers with no low prospects after this two-wheel-card flop.

That ace was a particularly cruel river card. Ouch! [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

Buzz

Re: Did I play this one correctly?
 

I don't care about the results. I just want to play the hand correctly.

Re: Did I play this one correctly?
 

if you hit the turn and still have the nut set w/no lo out yet, then is a good time to charge draws. on the flop, you cannot make him fold or give him the wrong odds to fold, charge him on the big streets, and then your river play is all you can do.

Re: Did I play this one correctly?
 

I think Buzz has got this one nailed. Oh yeah, one other thing...Mr Knish is a luckbox lol.

Seriously, with Villain's hand I would have played it just the way he did. For that reason I would have expected that the way you played yours, you either had the same hand as Villain, or the hand you actually held.