The ethics of seeing a player\'s cards
 

So the other day I was playing 1/2 NL with this fat woman to my immediate right who just moved over from a 3/6 limit table. I don't know if it was because she was fat, or that she simply didn't care, but every time she got a new hand, she looked at it way out in front of her with the cards up for anyone to see. I could easily see them every hand without even having to move my head. I'm sure the guy on her right could also. Maybe she couldn't get both arms in there closely so she could cup her hands to cover her cards? This isn't the first time this has happened to me either. If someone is not even trying to conceal their cards, is it wrong to look knowing you'll get information?

Re: The ethics of observing fat players...
 

If they show, you are allowed to know!!!

Re: The ethics of observing fat players...
 

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If they show, you are allowed to know!!!

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Well then you ought to announce it to evryone. After all show one show all.

Re: The ethics of observing fat players...
 

And nobody on the other side of the table said anything?

Re: The ethics of observing fat players...
 

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So the other day I was playing 1/2 NL with this fat woman to my immediate right who just moved over from a 3/6 limit table. I don't know if it was because she was fat, or that she simply didn't care, but every time she got a new hand, she looked at it way out in front of her with the cards up for anyone to see. I could easily see them every hand without even having to move my head. I'm sure the guy on her right could also. Maybe she couldn't get both arms in there closely so she could cup her hands to cover her cards? This isn't the first time this has happened to me either. If someone is not even trying to conceal their cards, is it wrong to look knowing you'll get information?

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Here's my take on people showing me there cards. I give people one warning when they flash. I discretely tell them they should protect there hand a little better.

After that, I figure I've warned them. If they flash, I will use it to my advantage.

Also, You're right. I think it's harder for really large people to peek well, although certainly not impossible.

Re: The ethics of observing fat players...
 

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So the other day I was playing 1/2 NL with this fat woman to my immediate right who just moved over from a 3/6 limit table. I don't know if it was because she was fat, or that she simply didn't care, but every time she got a new hand, she looked at it way out in front of her with the cards up for anyone to see. I could easily see them every hand without even having to move my head. I'm sure the guy on her right could also. Maybe she couldn't get both arms in there closely so she could cup her hands to cover her cards? This isn't the first time this has happened to me either. If someone is not even trying to conceal their cards, is it wrong to look knowing you'll get information?

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I don't think I understand how being fat prevents someone from looking at their cards like a normal person.

If she says something about you seeing her cards, just tell her that you saw poker on ESPN and are pretty sure it is a sport and therefore she should get fitter.

Re: The ethics of observing fat players...
 

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And nobody on the other side of the table said anything?

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No. This wasn't the most observant group of players (typical for the 1/2 tables around here in my experience). You know, the never-look-up-from-the-table-trying-to-act-like-a-statue kinds of players.

Re: The ethics of observing fat players...
 

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I don't think I understand how being fat prevents someone from looking at their cards like a normal person.

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I've seen multiple people who are on the verge of being obese who can't put both arms together, hands down on the table, and then lift up the cards slightly to see their hand. It makes sense considering that if they actually did achieve getting the arms that close together (while already being cramped at a full table, which is sometimes too narrow for a skinny person), that they literally could not see over their bellies to view the cards. Again, I'm not talking about a guy who has let his beer gut get mildly out of control, but people who are very large.

Re: The ethics of observing fat players...
 

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I've seen multiple people who are on the verge of being obese who can't put both arms together, hands down on the table, and then lift up the cards slightly to see their hand. It makes sense considering that if they actually did achieve getting the arms that close together (while already being cramped at a full table, which is sometimes too narrow for a skinny person), that they literally could not see over their bellies to view the cards. Again, I'm not talking about a guy who has let his beer gut get mildly out of control, but people who are very large.

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I'm still having trouble picturing someone so big they can't look at their hole cards... in any case, people that big are likely used to having to do normal things differently because of their size. No shame in telling them they can't play poker without paying for two seats and sitting in a slightly lower chair so their gut goes below the table.

However... I don't know why you'd say anything at all. I'd love to have the person next to me showing their cards. There is an old man who is a regular at Foxwoods in the 2/5 game (short, very thin, foreign) who does a very bad job concealing his cards. I sat on his left the first time I ever played with him and saw his hands... in one hand against him when he turned an A-high flush and then made a large bet on the river, I announced to the table that I was folding the K-high flush because "I am so good at reading hands." He showed his hand, and no one bluffed me for the rest of the day.

Re: The ethics of observing fat players...
 

"The ethics of observing fat players..."

I fail to see how the person's size has anything to do with your question. There are all kinds of people who do a poor job of protecting their cards, fat and skinny alike. Your whole post comes off as a thinly veiled attempt to make fun of overweight people.

Grow up.

Re: The ethics of observing fat players...
 

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So the other day I was playing 1/2 NL with this fat woman to my immediate right who just moved over from a 3/6 limit table. I don't know if it was because she was fat, or that she simply didn't care, but every time she got a new hand, she looked at it way out in front of her with the cards up for anyone to see.

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It sounds to me like the real issue is that she can't see the cards without holding them out. It's an eye problem, not a weight issue.

Personally, I would quietly tell her that I could see her cards the way she is holding them. If she didn't do anything to protect her hand after that, then that would be her own fault.

Re: The ethics of observing fat players...
 

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"The ethics of observing fat players..."

I fail to see how the person's size has anything to do with your question. There are all kinds of people who do a poor job of protecting their cards, fat and skinny alike. Your whole post comes off as a thinly veiled attempt to make fun of overweight people.

Grow up.

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I don't know why you're telling me to grow up as if you think you've foiled my "thinnly veiled" plan to make fun of people. That wasn't my intention at all, and you can relax. The point was that I've seen this multiple times with seriously overweight people for reasons that I outlined above, and never with skinny people. Obviously you fail to make the logical connection that if I'm concerned with the ethics of seeing someone's cards, then I wouldn't create this post with the intent to make fun of someone.

Re: The ethics of observing fat players...
 

I don't care how fat you are, you should be able to cup your hand on the table and lift up 2 peices of plastic.

If they are holding them out or up to look at them - it's probably a vision problem.

Re: The ethics of observing fat players...
 

Why would the answer to this question depend upon their size, gender, nationality, hair color or anything else?

Unless the person has mechanical arms, do you seriously see this as any different from the typical "player flashing cards, what should I do?" question?

Re: The ethics of observing fat players...
 

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I don't think I understand how being fat prevents someone from looking at their cards like a normal person.

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I've seen multiple people who are on the verge of being obese who can't put both arms together, hands down on the table, and then lift up the cards slightly to see their hand. It makes sense considering that if they actually did achieve getting the arms that close together (while already being cramped at a full table, which is sometimes too narrow for a skinny person), that they literally could not see over their bellies to view the cards. Again, I'm not talking about a guy who has let his beer gut get mildly out of control, but people who are very large.

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Okay, ignore my other reply now. Wow.

I guess it's the same as the mechanical arms thing- if there's a special handicap that makes them flash cards, then I'll try to avoid looking (and I'll let them know, as I usually do).

otherwise, same as other responses- once I warn you, any more flashes are your problem, not mine.

PS- where do you play that you regularly see people on the "verge of being obese" who can't peek at cards? That's scary....

Re: The ethics of observing fat players...
 

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I don't care how fat you are, you should be able to cup your hand on the table and lift up 2 peices of plastic.

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Then you haven't run into any 500 pounders at the poker table.

http://images.igloos.ca/d/67879-1/fat%20man.jpg

Re: The ethics of observing fat players...
 

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Here's my take on people showing me there cards. I give people one warning when they flash. I discretely tell them they should protect there hand a little better.

After that, I figure I've warned them. If they flash, I will use it to my advantage.


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This is my policy as well. However, if the person's problem stems from a disability of some sort (bad eyes, etc.) I'll do my best not to look. We don't need to be pushing people away from poker, and I respect the game enough as a game that I'd prefer to play it honest.

Re: The ethics of observing fat players...
 

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I don't think I understand how being fat prevents someone from looking at their cards like a normal person.

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I've seen multiple people who are on the verge of being obese who can't put both arms together, hands down on the table, and then lift up the cards slightly to see their hand. It makes sense considering that if they actually did achieve getting the arms that close together (while already being cramped at a full table, which is sometimes too narrow for a skinny person), that they literally could not see over their bellies to view the cards. Again, I'm not talking about a guy who has let his beer gut get mildly out of control, but people who are very large.

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Okay, ignore my other reply now. Wow.

I guess it's the same as the mechanical arms thing- if there's a special handicap that makes them flash cards, then I'll try to avoid looking (and I'll let them know, as I usually do).

otherwise, same as other responses- once I warn you, any more flashes are your problem, not mine.

PS- where do you play that you regularly see people on the "verge of being obese" who can't peek at cards? That's scary....

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The middle of America where people have horrible diets.

Re: The ethics of observing fat players...
 

By the way, in the instance of this one woman who I originally posted about, I could offer more evidence for why I truly believe it's a physical problem with her size and not her eyesight, but then I'm sure I'll be accused again of making fun of people, so I'm just going to drop the whole thing.

For those who offered thoughtful, helpful suggestions, thanks, I'll take them into consideration.

Re: The ethics of observing fat players...
 

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I don't think I understand how being fat prevents someone from looking at their cards like a normal person.

[/ QUOTE ]

I've seen multiple people who are on the verge of being obese who can't put both arms together, hands down on the table, and then lift up the cards slightly to see their hand. It makes sense considering that if they actually did achieve getting the arms that close together (while already being cramped at a full table, which is sometimes too narrow for a skinny person), that they literally could not see over their bellies to view the cards. Again, I'm not talking about a guy who has let his beer gut get mildly out of control, but people who are very large.

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About as ridiculous as it is to say you need 2 hands to look at your cards.

I've yet to see anyone like this(meaning too fat to see their cards). And I've played with very obese people(not just on the 'verge' of being obese). Nothing really to do with being fat. More to do with being lazy.

I've seen plenty of mid to slender people look at cards this same way. Would that make a difference in your question?

b

Re: The ethics of observing fat players...
 

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By the way, in the instance of this one woman who I originally posted about, I could offer more evidence for why I truly believe it's a physical problem with her size and not her eyesight, but then I'm sure I'll be accused again of making fun of people, so I'm just going to drop the whole thing.

For those who offered thoughtful, helpful suggestions, thanks, I'll take them into consideration.

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Your sizism is holding us all back you pig. We need to all hold hands and sing, WE SHALL OVERCOME!

Seriously though, the players are so bad in Booneville, MO, stuff like this happens all the time. I agree with the "giving one warning" suggested by the poster above as an ethical way to proceed. I think barring something really ridiculous the plus sized player could come up with a system for looking at her hole cards if she decides to make the effort. If the other players in the game are so horribly unobservant that the don't recoginize that you are being given a huge advantage, too bad for them. It's Booneville baby. Start humming circus music at the table like I do.

-Dan

Re: The ethics of observing fat players...
 

If anyone is exposing their cards where I can easily see them, I will ALWAYS tell them to protect their hand. If they continue doing it, I wont always just look at their hand, but I wont try to not look either.

Re: The ethics of observing fat players...
 

Dan, I'm glad you understand that I'm talking about a breed of player in mid-Missouri that is horrible beyond the imaginations of most posters on here, especially those who are used to Vegas, Cali, or AC casinos. I've experienced this phenomenon at Harrah's in STL too, but yes, Boonville is where this originally occurred.

Re: The ethics of observing fat players...
 

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Dan, I'm glad you understand that I'm talking about a breed of player in mid-Missouri that is horrible beyond the imaginations of most posters on here, especially those who are used to Vegas, Cali, or AC casinos. I've experienced this phenomenon at Harrah's in STL too, but yes, Boonville is where this originally occurred.

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There are many shades of terrible. I was in Vegas for the Super Bowl last year and the players were not good at all. But they were mainly happy go lucky types with "Gambol, Gambol, Gambol" constantly running through their brains.

At Booneville different types of pathological behavior are more common.

Re: The ethics of observing fat players...
 

Seriously, thanks to whatever mod changed the thread title. It wasn't my intention to offend earlier.

Re: The ethics of observing fat players...
 

Since I'm fat I can make fun of fat people. Being a big person I was asked once to pay a time charge for 2 seats..... I asked the floor person if he worked for American Airlines. He proceded to get a security guard even fatter than me and I spent two days at the health center recovering from a shattered femur.

Re: The ethics of observing fat players...
 

Aha, that's why Raymer didn't repeat as WSOP champ!