Overcall...
 

Haven't played since my trip to Vegas in mid-December. I heard that Norman was back playing at FW's, so I thought that I would head down and enjoy the softness of the 20/40 game there. I got off to a horrible start dropping 20 BB in the 1st 45 mins, reloaded and have made nearly a full comeback. One hand I raised w/ KK 4 saw the flop which included 2 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]'s and 2 K's. 1st CC was a guy that led the table in PF raises. I bet the flop and got 2 callers, including aggro guy. Small heart on the turn, I check, aggro guy bets, fold, I raise, he 3-bets, I 4-bet, he calls. River double pairs the board, bet, call. Thank you very much.

Aggro guy has long since busted, but the table is still very good. One lady hasn't missed a flop in about 3-4 hours, limping in w/ AA and QQ and calling raises w/ T5s and playing most hands to the river. She has also bet/folded a couple of flops. There is only 1 pretty good guy in the game. The rest range from predictable to horrible.

Some limper in MP, lady limps from HJ, loose/passive hyper predictable guy limps OTB, decent but a bit too loose and a bit too passive guy raises from the SB, I call from the BB w/ QJo. (10SB's)

Flop is T87r

SB bets, I call, MP folds, lady calls, button raises (he has a T or a bare 9), SB calls only calls, I call as does the lady. (9BB)

Turn is a Q putting 2 of some suit out there.

SB checks, I donk, everybody calls. (13BB)


River is a J

SB checks, I check, lady now fires, button calls, SB mucks, and I call getting 15:1.

Re: Overcall...
 

I think a bet/fold is better vs. the players described. Having checked I would fold here because lady sounds exactly like the type to not be bluffing here ever.

-DeathDonkey

Re: Overcall...
 

I was at your table (hope I was the one pretty good guy!) and remember this hand well. I thought about it a lot after the hand and I think it was a good call - you probably have button beat (I can't recall who button or the SB was, and don't remember the SB being in the hand this long) and that lady is unpredictable.

I really have no idea how often this is a bluff from her, she is very erratic. most of the time this is a 9 but she will randomly bet hands "for value" when it's is nothing but a bluff (usually when she's out of position though). you're a huge dog here but the pot is big enough that I think you need to call. It may be close enough that Q8/Q7 are folds but this is a call.

Re: Overcall...
 

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(hope I was the one pretty good guy!)

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LOL, what seat were you in? [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

The button was the guy with a bad toupe (whose name is Barry too) that was short stacked. He will always raise TP or a draw on the flop, he'll always check or call the flop w/ a monster (even when in position).

For DD, she was pretty erratic, that's why I added the BF on the flop lines to my description of her.

Re: Overcall...
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
(hope I was the one pretty good guy!)

[/ QUOTE ]

LOL, what seat were you in? [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

The button was the guy with a bad toupe (whose name is Barry too) that was short stacked. He will always raise TP or a draw on the flop, he'll always check or call the flop w/ a monster (even when in position).

[/ QUOTE ]

I was in the one seat when this hand went down.

I know who you're talking about now. He doesn't call the river with one pair there does he? I would think he has two pair or flopped a set. he may just be smooth calling a nine also?

I think DD makes a good point on bet-fold. you are rarely good when you have to call a bet here but there's a decent chance you get called in two spots even and win.

Re: Overcall...
 

I'd check/fold.

Re: Overcall...
 

Preflop: I think this is about as big a mistake as you can make preflop. You know a passive guy raising from the sb has a real hand, so that puts QJ in big trouble. If you hit something you're probably still behind, but it will be hard to get away from in such a big pot. Not only that, but you are in awful position. You're in EP and the raiser is to your right. This means that you're facing a very real chance of getting caught between two raisers, even at a passive table.

Flop: I guess I'm calling both times. Raising is awfully tempting as you'd like to drive out a lot of the players behind you, but I feel that flop is too likely to have hit a limper for raising to be the correct play. It's close, though.

Turn: Well done.

River: I hate doing it, but I guess I'd call as well.

Just my opinion...

Re: Overcall...
 

Yeah, you're the one I was referring to. We've had a decent amount of history since the fall tournament time. I made a PF mistake when I had the TT right after I was stacking a pot and didn't 3-bet PF, which allowed you to see a flop out of the BB w/ your 86 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]. I flop a set and you flopped the str8 w/ a SF draw.

The button does not have a set, he would always, always wait until the turn to raise there. The board texture, relative position, # of opponents, pot size don't matter to him. TP or a draw, raise the flop. Monster, check the flop, raise or checkraise the turn.

Re: Overcall...
 

Fold preflop, check/fold the river.

Re: Overcall...
 

[ QUOTE ]
Fold preflop

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I'm surprised by everyone saying this. what about other offsuit little broadways (JTo/KJo/KQo)?

Re: Overcall...
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Fold preflop

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I'm surprised by everyone saying this. what about other offsuit little broadways (JTo/KJo/KQo)?

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Decent, too-passive players don't raise from the SB without hands that pretty much always dominate weak offsuit broadways.

Re: Overcall...
 

You should now change your posting name to "laydown guy."

I've been observing your posts for awhile, and it's obvious that you advocate a very tight style most of the time.

I will make the final call based on pot odds only, as not always you'll be looking at a nine.

Re: Overcall...
 

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I've been observing your posts for awhile

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Thanks.

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and it's obvious that you advocate a very tight style most of the time.

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I also advocate a very aggressive style when warranted. But so does everyone else on this forum, so why should I add to their chorus? I enter the discussion when I feel players are being too loose, which I think is a bigger leak on 2+2 than people who are too tight.

Re: Overcall...
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
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Fold preflop

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I'm surprised by everyone saying this. what about other offsuit little broadways (JTo/KJo/KQo)?

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Decent, too-passive players don't raise from the SB without hands that pretty much always dominate weak offsuit broadways.

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although I have become much looser in the BB over time due to post flop advantage, this is an example of a time when I can find a fold pre-flop. Passive SB raising with a field behind him isn't a position I want to be in while sitting in the BB. PJ is right on the money.

TT [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

Re: Overcall...
 

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PJ is right on the money.

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pre-flop, def.

Re: Overcall...
 

I'm never even considering folding this pf. Turn the J into an 8 or lower and then I'll let it go.

I think if you're unwilling to fold to the obvious str8 on this river, then you need to bet/fold. I'd like to think I'm comfortable enough with my poker that I could c/f, but I surprise myself time and again.

Re: Overcall...
 

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I'm never even considering folding this pf.

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Agreed. Seriously. This is limit poker. Folding QJo for 1 sb out of the BB in a likely 5 way pot is beyond nitty. If you play well postflop, that 1 sb has to be +EV for you.

Domination in holdem is always referred to as hands like AK vs AQ or AQ vs QJ. When in fact you're only really crushed when it's pair vs overpair.

Re: Overcall...
 

[ QUOTE ]
For DD, she was pretty erratic, that's why I added the BF on the flop lines to my description of her.

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hey barry, there's a huge difference between b/f'ing the flop and betting into 3 players on the river with a 4-straight on the board. is she really that erratic?

i'd also fold PF, SB's range is just too small based on your description of him and your position is horrible.

Re: Overcall...
 

Moneyline & PrivateJoker:I always read your posts carefully because you both seem to understand the game well.

This is the first time that you have both recommended a line that I can't reconcile in my mind.Talking about folding p/f.If everybody calls the raise,you will be getting 9 to 1 on your call.It looks to me that it's worth it because,being a connector,you could flop a straight draw & wind up winning a big pot.I know that if you flop a pair,you will often be dominated,but being a good player,you should be able to get away from it with minimum damage.If one of you would enlighten me on this situation,I would appreciate it.Thanks.Ben.

Re: Overcall...
 

It's definitely close, ben, and it's not like I think a call is that bad. I just think a fold is slightly better. The likelihood of domination and its lack of suitedness are two main reasons, but a secondary reason is my position: I'm first to act after the PFR without having any idea what the other players in the hand are going to do.

If I'm playing this hand from the BB PF against a raise, I'd prefer the PFR to be UTG and then get a bunch of cold-callers. That way, I have much better relative position (last to act after he bets the flop). But either way, playing a marginal hand from early position sucks compared to having it on the button.

Re: Overcall...
 

Well, its not so easy to "get away from it" when you're priced in, and your position is terrible. I'm fairly liberal from the BB, certainly moreso than TT and PJ, but I still think that even though I don't muck this all the time I'd probably be better off if I did.

Re: Overcall...
 

Yeah, to put it another way -- say I posted from the CO preflop, and there were a couple limpers to me and I checked my option with QJo. The button folds and the SB raises, the BB and two other limpers all call, and it's on me. Super-easy call there. I have the button, great relative position to the raiser, and I'm getting the same odds as in this hand.

Re: Overcall...
 

Yea.I see what I was missing.If I'm trying to bring a straight draw in,my position is awful relative to the pre-flop raiser.(Moneyline spelled this out,but it still went right over my head.)If I had been in the small blind,completed,& then he raised out of the BB,my position would be gigantically better,ever though I am still up front. Thanks a lot.

Re: Overcall...
 

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Fold preflop...

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If there is ever a game where folding 1-pair in a big pot is super easy this is it.

Re: Overcall...
 

Ok guys, I know that the PF call is pretty marginal and would attract some criticism. However, I had position on the SB and the other folks in the hand were pretty passive and predictable, so I wasn't too worried about being caught in the middle of anything. I agree with DD that BF the river was the way to go. I did fire in my mind, but my hand just wouldn't move to the chips.

Anyway the lady says "I don't have a 9, just a T" and she turns over a T and something like a 5. Button turns over JT for 2nd and 3rd pair and MHIG. The lady is pretty erratic and had some moments of some wierdly timed aggression so she didn't necessarily need to have a 9 to bet the river. I was really only worried about the button having a 9. The Andy Fox Theorem in action.

Re: Overcall...
 

You've put yourself in a tough spot by not betting and planning to fold to a raise.

Re: Overcall...
 

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You've put yourself in a tough spot by not betting and planning to fold to a raise.

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joe is this worse than betting, and stressing over a raise in a big pot?

Re: Overcall...
 

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You've put yourself in a tough spot by not betting and planning to fold to a raise.

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joe is this worse than betting, and stressing over a raise in a big pot?

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The Fox 20 game is played face up. There is not stress when someone raises your river bet vs such opponents.