stars 2/4 me and enon disagree
 

never played with SB in my life but hes like 45/25ish after like 100 hands

button, i think plays good HU, but is really bad 6 handed, hes the type who never ever folds his big blind no matter what and is fully capable of going completely animal postflop, but he dosent really matter in this hand

anyway, me and enon disagree on the turn play here, so help us out

PokerStars 200/400 Hold'em (5 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
<font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, Button calls, SB calls, BB calls.

Flop: (8 SB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">SB bets</font>, BB folds, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, Button calls, <font color="#CC3333">SB 3-bets</font>, Hero calls, Button calls.

Turn: (8.50 BB) A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">SB bets</font>, hero does what?

Re: stars 2/4 me and enon disagree
 

Very close since you have to call a 3-bet if you raise, but I still vote for a raise. Then hope for a free showdown if you don't hit the straight.

My mind could change depending on the opponent. Who was SB?

Re: stars 2/4 me and enon disagree
 

My standard line is to calldown. I don't really want to get 3-4 bets in while drawing almost dead or give him the opportunity to push me out of the hand. At this level most people will follow through with a river bluff when they miss anyway so you still get the same amount imo while not risking as much.

Re: stars 2/4 me and enon disagree
 

will his future 'animal' instincts be reduced if you just call down?

are you ahead here with any significant frequency if you get 3 bet and call down?

can you fold if you are 3 bet?

will he bet a worse hand again on the river?

i think you get what im saying [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]... this case all the evidence imo calls for a calldown and i dont see how you can advocate raising unless a) he is a complete spewtard that you've seen go 3 bets on the turn with a hand worse than (now) top pair) or b) he goes super passive on turn/river no matter the relative value of his hand.

i dont think raising is a spew, and lee knows im relatively more cautious than other high limit players, but id say the evidence here warrants more cautious action vs. the animal.

further considerations include that if he has a draw, AT or AcXc are now ahead of you and have you drawing to 5 outs in the first case and 4 outs in the second case, which you cannot fold to if you get 3 bet.

Barron

Re: stars 2/4 me and enon disagree
 

i think whether your preflop ranges are LAG (newhizzle) or nitty (enon) is relevant to what the correct turn play is, assuming your opponents are paying attention at all.

Re: stars 2/4 me and enon disagree
 

I think its closer to a fold than a raise (not that I'd fold just saying which direction I lean when I call). If you do think its a raise (meaning you are ahead enough) I think it would be easier to play by capping the flop and getting a honest action if he still leads the turn.

-DeathDonkey

Re: stars 2/4 me and enon disagree
 

[ QUOTE ]
I think its closer to a fold than a raise (not that I'd fold just saying which direction I lean when I call). If you do think its a raise (meaning you are ahead enough) I think it would be easier to play by capping the flop and getting a honest action if he still leads the turn.

-DeathDonkey

[/ QUOTE ]

And this leaves you in a sticky spot when he c/r's both of you on the turn as you're almost certainly behind, but probably have to call for your gutshot. FWIW as it probably doesn't happen all that often.

~AS

Re: stars 2/4 me and enon disagree
 

[ QUOTE ]
I think its closer to a fold than a raise (not that I'd fold just saying which direction I lean when I call). If you do think its a raise (meaning you are ahead enough) I think it would be easier to play by capping the flop and getting a honest action if he still leads the turn.

-DeathDonkey

[/ QUOTE ]

This sounds right.

James

Re: stars 2/4 me and enon disagree
 

Most of the time I'd call if the turn was a red two, so, I guess I call here too.

Re: stars 2/4 me and enon disagree
 

[ QUOTE ]
Most of the time I'd call if the turn was a red two, so, I guess I call here too.

[/ QUOTE ]

even with the button still to act behind you?

Not sure if everybody is ignoring that by accident or because you really think its irrelevant.

Re: stars 2/4 me and enon disagree
 

youre continuing with the hand so you might as well raise and overrepresent shiit

Re: stars 2/4 me and enon disagree
 

why would you do that?

Re: stars 2/4 me and enon disagree
 

[ QUOTE ]
youre continuing with the hand so you might as well raise and overrepresent shiit

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
why would you do that?

[/ QUOTE ]


because QQ isn't that strong on this board vs two opponents and you're probably going to get 3-bet close to half the time (specifically because the guy already bet-3bet the flop, and still bet the turn).

I would be more inclined to raise when the pot is heads up, not 3-handed. The inclusion of 2 opponents means it's likely QQ is behind, and if it's ahead, then it's a fricken certainty like half the deck rivers you.

"Charging" draws isn't so important anymore in this pot because they're not folding and they aren't being charged much at all, and you're getting 3 bet a lot, so really, you're just charging yourself to draw.

reasons to raise
 

vmacosta was right, you are all ignoring the button. you need to raise

--to get the button out if possible
--because you might have the best hand
--to make draws pay or fold (and increase outs)
--to make the river easier to play by representing a monster (this should tame bb into going limp with something like 98)
--pot is getting big, good time to get aggro
--folding is wrong you might have a bazooka load of outs
--calling let's button animal and bb have their way with you it's too weak from a meta hand perspective
--raise raise raise
--did i say raise yet?

come at me im ready.

Re: stars 2/4 me and enon disagree
 

what hands is sb 3 betting with confidence there? i think sb has a lot of 2 pair type hands that hate that turn card when raised. a raise also puts button under a lot of pressure what appears to be something like KQ, T9, or some sort of hand he got trapped with on the flop. the only hands sb is going to 3 bet are AJ, a set, and a flopped straight. and AJ is close. im assuming sb doesnt have T7 most of the time. flush draws and pairs with a T as well as J9s, 98s, are definitely likley though. what do you put hero's opponents on?

i think one of sb's most likely hands is KJ (or even JT) and he is sick of mark's laggy ways.

Re: reasons to raise
 

[ QUOTE ]

--to get the button out if possible

[/ QUOTE ]

He called two cold on the flop. He's not folding for 2 cold on the turn. He has to have a combo draw or already be crushing you now. It's simple hand range estimates. He's either got tons of outs vs you, or, he's now beating you.

[ QUOTE ]
--because you might have the best hand

[/ QUOTE ]
Unliiiiiiiiiiiiikely. Or if you do, your total equity is barely above 33% vs the two other hands. What type of hands bet-3bet the flop and bet the turn (usually huge hands or good hands with big draws)? What type of hands cold call preflop and cold call 2 more on the flop (likely a draw (say ace high flush draw, or something like JT/T9, etc), or a total QT type monster)?

[ QUOTE ]
--to make the river easier to play by representing a monster (this should tame bb into going limp with something like 98)

[/ QUOTE ]

irrelevent if you're behind. irrelevent if you're ahead. the river is damn easy to play when you call the turn, call the river -- how much easier can it be? Or when you raise on the turn, and then the river is a flush card, or the river is a 7, how does your turn raise make the river easier? I don't think this TYPE of board makes the river easier to play.

[ QUOTE ]
--pot is getting big, good time to get aggro

[/ QUOTE ]
This is a better argument if you change your hand to KK. Then you want KQ or Q-whatever to fold the gutshot.

[ QUOTE ]
--folding is wrong you might have a bazooka load of outs

[/ QUOTE ]

Agreed. Call. Call. Next hand.

[ QUOTE ]
--calling let's button animal and bb have their way with you it's too weak from a meta hand perspective

[/ QUOTE ]
With this much action, if button raises, and BB 3-bets, you're crushed. Plain and simple. Then you fold and not lose sleep. If BB just calls a button raise then you call and re-evaluate on the river. Again, simple.

And what's this "weak metagame perspective" bs? There's no "good" or "bad" metagame, as long as you use what you are. If this hand is gonna make you look "weak," then, do other things to take advantage of your "weak" look. That might mean more call-call lines on the flop and turn with nothing and then they check fold to you on the river because you're "weak," or any of the dozens of other ways you use a "weak" image.

Re: reasons to raise
 

[ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
--pot is getting big, good time to get aggro

[/ QUOTE ]
This is a better argument if you change your hand to KK. Then you want KQ or Q-whatever to fold the gutshot.


[/ QUOTE ]

i'm pretty sure you don't want to let that KQ call for 1 bet with his 7 outer, particularly considering that 4 of those outs will make it particularly expensive for you on the river.

Re: stars 2/4 me and enon disagree
 

[ QUOTE ]
what hands is sb 3 betting with confidence there? i think sb has a lot of 2 pair type hands that hate that turn card when raised. a raise also puts button under a lot of pressure what appears to be something like KQ, T9, or some sort of hand he got trapped with on the flop. the only hands sb is going to 3 bet are AJ, a set, and a flopped straight. and AJ is close.

[/ QUOTE ]
Very interesting arguments for both calling and raising. I think the above excerpt is the strongest argument for either side so far. hope others will comment

Re: stars 2/4 me and enon disagree
 

I think this is really close to a fold. What if villain holds A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]? Now it's down to three outs.

Make a crying calldown unless a non-club jack comes on the river.

correction
 

Just call this down.

Re: correction
 

I'm definitely raising if the turn is a red deuce, but I'm calling in this spot. The ace is just a terrible card for your equity vs. villains ranges here.

A deuce is a different story because I do believe some people get away from t9 and 8t for 2 cold on the turn(and definitely A9 and a8 and other hand that had a backdoor draw with their pair or something on the flop).


James

Re: stars 2/4 me and enon disagree
 

i dont think there is a right answer to this question.

raising has merit if it can make the button fold, but i doubt he's folding for two bets on the turn, esp. when an ace falls as that card will have helped his hand fairly often. so, i don't like raising.

calling down lets the button draw cheaply when you're ahead and he's drawing.

folding seems like the best line here. i can't imagaine you're ahead enough of the time to pay at minimum 2 BB's to get to show down here.

and if you are ahead on the turn, you're inbetween two players and about half the deck will kill your hand.


3-bet/bet is such a strong line into two players on this board....i'm mucking and not second guessing here.

Re: stars 2/4 me and enon disagree
 

[ QUOTE ]
what hands is sb 3 betting with confidence there? i think sb has a lot of 2 pair type hands that hate that turn card when raised. a raise also puts button under a lot of pressure what appears to be something like KQ, T9, or some sort of hand he got trapped with on the flop. the only hands sb is going to 3 bet are AJ, a set, and a flopped straight. and AJ is close. im assuming sb doesnt have T7 most of the time. flush draws and pairs with a T as well as J9s, 98s, are definitely likley though. what do you put hero's opponents on?

i think one of sb's most likely hands is KJ (or even JT) and he is sick of mark's laggy ways.

[/ QUOTE ]

Bingo. This combined with the need to charge draws on this incredibly coordinated drawy board push this from a call to a raise in my book. I also think that there's a higher chance hero's ahead than some give him credit for. There are an awful lot of hands that the villains can play this way that are behind QQ, including any T, any 2 clubs, any paired Q, KQ.

Re: stars 2/4 me and enon disagree
 

"folding seems like the best line here. i can't imagaine you're ahead enough of the time to pay at minimum 2 BB's to get to show down here."

unless youre very certain sb has QT there's almost no way you should fold here, too many potential outs.

Re: reasons to raise
 

I see what you're trying to say, but the problem is you'll be beat more often than not. You're also not getting any hand to incorrectly fold here. AT isn't folding. AQ isn't folding, TT isn't folding, etc.

His hand is worth a call, but raising will often make a debacle of things.

Re: reasons to raise
 

i like raising...button is obviously drawing, so we want him to pay...sb could have some sort of weak two pair/ pair w/combo draw which we still have outs to beat...pushing button out with a turn raise would be ideal, but he's calling two cold here most of the time it seems(since he did the same preflop/flop)...call sb down on river(unless ten comes, then let us gogogogo)...if button 3-bets turn and sb 4-bets, i'm out like gobboboy's belly...also, i'm letting this go on river if any flush card/other scare card hits...

Re: stars 2/4 me and enon disagree
 

How many outs do you really have if behind? Six, but a queen isn't a clean out. And the 10c isn't a clean out either. The possibility of counterfeiting two pair is the only reason to continue.

Re: stars 2/4 me and enon disagree
 

Raising is spew. You're just asking to get 3 bet with nothing but a few outs to chop.

Re: stars 2/4 me and enon disagree
 

omg mike l raising is so bad (/finish sucking schneids off). it's not particularly close.

Re: stars 2/4 me and enon disagree
 

what do you put sb and button on that makes raising so bad?

Re: stars 2/4 me and enon disagree
 

I call.

Re: stars 2/4 me and enon disagree
 

who voted for what line mark?

my guess is you wanted to raise and lee wanted to call.

Barron

Re: stars 2/4 me and enon disagree
 

If you can't fold this turn; then you should call. You'd need a strong read to fold, you don't have one. Is there merit to calling the flop donk, regardless of the button to act? This flop hit's a large section of hands vs two opponents.

Re: stars 2/4 me and enon disagree
 

Problem with just calling is that you gives the opportunity to the button to draw really cheaply. And if they get into a raising war together with a lone J or draw, your hand will be so badly under reprensented that folding at any point will be bad imo. What are you gonna do if button raise behind and sb 3-bets ? You still have an overpair knowing button is an animal...

Re: stars 2/4 me and enon disagree
 

[ QUOTE ]
who voted for what line mark?

my guess is you wanted to raise and lee wanted to call.

Barron

[/ QUOTE ]

Obviously. I have nothing to add really after Schneids post. I don't think this decision is close either.

Re: stars 2/4 me and enon disagree
 

Is capping the flop very fishy?

Re: stars 2/4 me and enon disagree
 

[ QUOTE ]
What are you gonna do if button raise behind and sb 3-bets ? You still have an overpair knowing button is an animal..

[/ QUOTE ]

Hey Mig, how are you? Hope your holidays were good!

I agree with you here but I do think there is merit to calling this flop if we had a more passive opponent behind us. We do not, you're right, the flop is a raise and as played, agreed.

Re: stars 2/4 me and enon disagree
 

Dcif hit it on the nose, he is not going to fold to 3 bets here and it is not the spot to try value betting with that board. If you are good he will still bet at you and you will get some value out of the hand while risking losing the least by just calling here.