HELP !!!! How do people call this ????
 

Two tourneys back to back where I flopped top pair with JT suited and got called down with AK and both donkeys hit the turn.
The first time occured in the Stars $3 rebuy after the rebuy period.
Was down to 1600, blinds 100/200, I limp UTG with QJ of dia.
Button (has over 10k in chips) raises to 800, I call. Jack hit the flop, 8 9 J of hearts to be exact. I'm 1st to act postflop, bet my last 800, guy calls with AK os, black. King hits the turn, Ok, not enough chips to protect my hand, $3 tourney, yadda yadda, I can swallow this one.
The second one is the Killer. Full tilt, $163 buy in nightly $35k (pot was over 50k ), blinds up to 100/200, about 160 left out of 378, I'm in the BB with JT of clubs, with 5k in my stack. UTG raises to 600, he has me covered, maybe 8k. Everyone folds, I call, I'm HU and 1st to act.
Pot is 1300, J89 flop, non suited in red, I push all in for 4400 (1st to act) figuring that I can bluff the straight or draw out if I'm behind with a J,T, 7, or Q. The dude INSTACALLS with AK of clubs and turns a King, river is a blank and I lose.
How the hell does he make this call ??
Seriously ??

Re: HELP !!!! How do people call this ????
 

[ QUOTE ]

Was down to 1600, blinds 100/200, I limp UTG with QJ of dia.
Button (has over 10k in chips) raises to 800, I call.

[/ QUOTE ]

thats a horrible line. shove or fold first time please. shove or fold to raise too, leaning toward a fold. what if you had whiffed.

[ QUOTE ]
Pot is 1300, J89 flop, non suited in red, I push all in for 4400 (1st to act) figuring that I can bluff the straight or draw out if I'm behind with a J,T, 7, or Q.

[/ QUOTE ]

nobody in their right mind wuold buy that u have a straight there.

Re: HELP !!!! How do people call this ????
 

Hey, Thanks for giving me credit for making 2 good reads and getting my money in both times as a 3-1 favorite post flop. (btw, I'm being sarcastic)
SO YOU WOULD MAKE THE CALL IN THE SECOND SCENERIO, WITH AK HIGH FOR ESSENTIALLY EVEN MONEY WITH NO HAND AND NO DRAW ?

Re: HELP !!!! How do people call this ????
 

im not saying i would call with AK. im saying that you misplayed preflop in hand 1 very badly, and overshoving nearly 4x pot in hand 2 is not much better. they made bad calls and hit, but they arent the only ones who played their hands badly...

Re: HELP !!!! How do people call this ????
 

[ QUOTE ]
Was down to 1600, blinds 100/200, I limp UTG with QJ of dia

[/ QUOTE ]

nh

Re: HELP !!!! How do people call this ????
 

I disagree, here's why.
1st tourney I'm into for $9, (I missed the rebuy and add on at the end, thats why I was left with 1600), blinds were about to increase and I was UTG with a very decent drawing hand, with blinds coming around, so I made up my mind to go all the way with the hand if I hit any piece of the flop. If I shove all in preflop, AK on the button is at least calling, same result.
Second situation, I was card dead for an hour, not as desperate as the first scenerio, but I still needed to get in gear and make something happen soon. Turns out it was a very decent flop for my holding. Top pair and up and down str8 draw. My thinking was to get all my chips in on the flop and try to double up if UTG had aces or Kings he couldn't fold before the str8 became too apparent, such as any Ten in my hand would give me the str8 if 7 or Q hits. And then there was the miracle outside cahce that a worse hand would call for whatever reason, such as an underpair or AK, as was the case.

Re: HELP !!!! How do people call this ????
 

Why is this not in BBV?

Re: HELP !!!! How do people call this ????
 

hand 1. you only have 8 BB, you dont have room to speculate with hands. blinds going up soon is MORE reason to not do this.

hand 2. you still have 25BB, youre in more then fine shape. shoving 4x pot is not the way to get something going as you say. if you have to do it, at least check/raise it all in.

Re: HELP !!!! How do people call this ????
 

Why post this crap if you are just going to yell at us?

Re: HELP !!!! How do people call this ????
 

[ QUOTE ]
Why post this crap if you are just going to yell at us?

[/ QUOTE ]
Who's yelling ?
And I still haven't gotten a resonable opinion as to why I was called in the second situation, other than I played the hand badly, yet I was able to get all the money in as a substaintial favorite post flop, go figure.
You think villian put me on a stone bluff ?

Re: HELP !!!! How do people call this ????
 

Maybe he thought you were bluffing w/ a flush or a straigth draw, or maybe he just one of those players that can't fold AK ever. But who cares why he called, you want him to call with AK there. Get over it and load another tourney. (and yeah both hands were played poorly on your part for reasons already mentioned.)

Re: HELP !!!! How do people call this ????
 

I appreciate the response, honestly.
How would you have played the second hand differently ?

Re: HELP !!!! How do people call this ????
 

[ QUOTE ]
And I still haven't gotten a resonable opinion as to why I was called in the second situation, other than I played the hand badly, yet I was able to get all the money in as a substaintial favorite post flop, go figure.
You think villian put me on a stone bluff ?

[/ QUOTE ]

Naw. They never fold AK.

[ QUOTE ]
Pot is 1300, J89 flop, non suited in red, I push all in for 4400.

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
And then there was the miracle outside cahce that a worse hand would call for whatever reason, such as an underpair or AK, as was the case.

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
other than I played the hand badly, yet I was able to get all the money in as a substaintial favorite post flop, go figure.

[/ QUOTE ]

Do you see the inherent flaw in your thought processes there? Posters here don't flame you because you smell funny, they flame you because you made a mistake that's glaringly obvious to more than one of them.

And when that happens 'round these parts, which side do you think generally is correct here?

Re: HELP !!!! How do people call this ????
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
And I still haven't gotten a resonable opinion as to why I was called in the second situation, other than I played the hand badly, yet I was able to get all the money in as a substaintial favorite post flop, go figure.
You think villian put me on a stone bluff ?

[/ QUOTE ]

Naw. They never fold AK.

[ QUOTE ]
Pot is 1300, J89 flop, non suited in red, I push all in for 4400.

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
And then there was the miracle outside cahce that a worse hand would call for whatever reason, such as an underpair or AK, as was the case.

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
other than I played the hand badly, yet I was able to get all the money in as a substaintial favorite post flop, go figure.

[/ QUOTE ]

Do you see the inherent flaw in your thought processes there? Posters here don't flame you because you smell funny, they flame you because you made a mistake that's glaringly obvious to more than one of them.

And when that happens 'round these parts, which side do you think generally is correct here?

[/ QUOTE ]
Ok, I orginally started this thread here as to why I was called in these situations. Case #1 is pretty much a gimmie, closed.
Case #2, I recieved very few responses, if any, to the original question.
But now, I would like to go off on this tanget and premise that I played the hand badly.
Basic poker theory states that one should strive to play close to the center as possible, while trying to induce your opponents to playing as far from center as possible. In otherwords, get your money in as a favorite while trying to get the other guy to call when he's a dog.
This was accomplished here and I guess I should end this thread here and now since in reality, I shouldn't be complaining, other than about the end result.
But now, I'd like to pose a second question as to why , in detail, these hands were played badly, other than fold QJ and JT suited preflop. Which I stated my reasons why I went with the hands.

Re: HELP !!!! How do people call this ????
 

if youd read the earlier responses, you might get an idea why you played them badly...

Re: HELP !!!! How do people call this ????
 

Trapped

1. The correct way to play top pair with a straight draw is NOT TO OVERBET the pot by a factor of 4. A pot sized bet should be enough to get the player to fold if they are going to. If they don't, you know that you are up against something (against most players) or at least some kind of draw to something better than what you hold. If you bet the pot, you can check the king and get away if you need too. The hand would make sense at that point, called pot sized bet with ace king...loose, but fits.

2. As to how does someone call this: First off an overbet means one of two things, either you have the nuts, or you have nothing at all (in most cases). If he doesn't believe you have the straight, which you didn't, then calling makes sense. He may have you beat, and if he doesn't he has a draw.
Second, you have to think about how your bet appears. Its donkish, leaves you no outs and is not necessary in that spot.

Check/calling preflop, and then overbetting the flop, smells like a steal to me. And top pair with a 10 kicker and a straight draw is not massive overbet material in my book.

Instead of screaming about how the "bad" player got lucky on you, you should be thinking about why in the name of God you decided to fire both barrells with that ammo in them.

Theres a bigger problem here trapped. And a friendly word of advice, it doesn't sound like you are ready to play 168 dollar buyin tourneys. This is really easy to see, bad bet, bad call.

Re: HELP !!!! How do people call this ????
 

[ QUOTE ]
Trapped

1. The correct way to play top pair with a straight draw is NOT TO OVERBET the pot by a factor of 4. A pot sized bet should be enough to get the player to fold if they are going to. If they don't, you know that you are up against something (against most players) or at least some kind of draw to something better than what you hold. If you bet the pot, you can check the king and get away if you need too. The hand would make sense at that point, called pot sized bet with ace king...loose, but fits.

2. As to how does someone call this: First off an overbet means one of two things, either you have the nuts, or you have nothing at all (in most cases). If he doesn't believe you have the straight, which you didn't, then calling makes sense. He may have you beat, and if he doesn't he has a draw.
Second, you have to think about how your bet appears. Its donkish, leaves you no outs and is not necessary in that spot.

Check/calling preflop, and then overbetting the flop, smells like a steal to me. And top pair with a 10 kicker and a straight draw is not massive overbet material in my book.

Instead of screaming about how the "bad" player got lucky on you, you should be thinking about why in the name of God you decided to fire both barrells with that ammo in them.

Theres a bigger problem here trapped. And a friendly word of advice, it doesn't sound like you are ready to play 168 dollar buyin tourneys. This is really easy to see, bad bet, bad call.

[/ QUOTE ]
Yeah, guess I'll stick to the $215 buy in tourneys, like the one I 3-way chopped in March for over 100 grand on Stars (close to 6000 entrants) and my 3rd place on FT as Doyle_Ungar for over $26,000, all as a part time player

Re: HELP !!!! How do people call this ????
 

dude, havent read all the replies but in your 2nd hand, that clearly appears to be a stop'n'go just by your calling OOP with a short stack. if the villian in that hand has any sense what so ever, thats is almost an instacall with AK and a few other drawing hands.

Re: HELP !!!! How do people call this ????
 

[ QUOTE ]
Yeah, guess I'll stick to the $215 buy in tourneys, like the one I 3-way chopped in March for over 100 grand on Stars (close to 6000 entrants) and my 3rd place on FT as Doyle_Ungar for over $26,000, all as a part time player

[/ QUOTE ]

so youre defending your actions by luckboxing your way through 2 big tourneys? clearly by playing hands that way you lack fundamental skills. youre in the stage i used to be. iuse to complain about beats and blame everything on other players. then i got past that stage and im a better player for it.

hows it feel to be a bad player yet make thru those fields while many really good players havent even been able to go deep in it? luck-box.

Re: HELP !!!! How do people call this ????
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Yeah, guess I'll stick to the $215 buy in tourneys, like the one I 3-way chopped in March for over 100 grand on Stars (close to 6000 entrants) and my 3rd place on FT as Doyle_Ungar for over $26,000, all as a part time player

[/ QUOTE ]

so youre defending your actions by luckboxing your way through 2 big tourneys? clearly by playing hands that way you lack fundamental skills. youre in the stage i used to be. iuse to complain about beats and blame everything on other players. then i got past that stage and im a better player for it.

hows it feel to be a bad player yet make thru those fields while many really good players havent even been able to go deep in it? luck-box.

[/ QUOTE ]
Why all the hatred and aynamosity !??!
Luck box ?
I'm glad you can make that assumption since I can guarantee you have probably never seen me play in that tourney. If you did, you would know that in 9+ hours I laid only ONE bad beat all tourney, and that was what I presumed to be a steal from a shorter stack (half) in the cuttoff when my KQ sucked out his AK.
It so halarious that most of you whorship guys like Shaundeeb and Bax who play around the clock, and constant multi-tabling, make unorthodox plays like the one I did.
Fact of the matter that CAN'T be disputed was I got someone to CALL my overbet as a 3 to 1 dog, and you guys are essentially mocking me and making false assumptions on this ONE particular hand. I'm sure you're the same ones that play aces the same way, mini raises, UTG limps, etc etc, then B*tch and maon when someone catches a low set or hits the board hard and you can't get away from it.

Re: HELP !!!! How do people call this ????
 

Kill yourself preflop.

Re: HELP !!!! How do people call this ????
 

[ QUOTE ]
Kill yourself preflop.

[/ QUOTE ]
Excuse me ?

Re: HELP !!!! How do people call this ????
 

theres unorthodox, then theres bad. limping QJ with 8 BB then calling a raise for half your stack is bad. shoving 4x pot there is bad. a standard bet would do the same thing.

also, i dont worship anyone, they are simply players. but their unorthodox plays? they have reasons for them. and they arent near as bad as yours. your reasons are no good. do you expect someone to believe you would shove the nuts there?

just cause you got a worse hand to call doesnt always mean it was a good play.

actually i dont minraise. cause its a play mostly for donks. i can get away from aces anytime i feel im beat, it is only 1 pair. UTG limping with AA is usually no good either.

Re: HELP !!!! How do people call this ????
 

[ QUOTE ]
dude, havent read all the replies but in your 2nd hand, that clearly appears to be a stop'n'go just by your calling OOP with a short stack. if the villian in that hand has any sense what so ever, thats is almost an instacall with AK and a few other drawing hands.

[/ QUOTE ]
IT IS a form of a stop and go, except I hit the flop good, but not great. I obviously was vunerable to an outdraw which is why I overbet the pot to win it right there.
I'm still having trouble how you're justifying villians Instcall here with JUST a draw to a higher pair, and nothing else.
I could see if he was 4 flushing or we were talking about a JTx board were now he picked up 4 other outs (any Queen) for the str8.

Re: HELP !!!! How do people call this ????
 

you need to stop concentrating on your OPPONENTS play and look at your own.

Re: HELP !!!! How do people call this ????
 

[ QUOTE ]
theres unorthodox, then theres bad. limping QJ with 8 BB then calling a raise for half your stack is bad. shoving 4x pot there is bad. a standard bet would do the same thing.[ QUOTE ]



One, I really appreciate you keeping this civil.
The first hand where I limp with QJ, and then call a raise, I posted as a contrast to the second hand where in the first, I admit that villian had every right to call considering stack sizes, position, etc., and stated I had no problem with the outcome.
The second hand were you recommend I make a standard raise, my feeling is that gives villian an oppurtunity to reraise and get me to fold the better hand (on the flop) since I have fold equity. I felt by overbetting first to act, it left him with fold/call option vs. fold/call/reraise option.

[ QUOTE ]
just cause you got a worse hand to call doesn't mean it was a good play [ QUOTE ]


Why not ?? How can it be anything other than a good play ?

Re: HELP !!!! How do people call this ????
 

[ QUOTE ]
you need to stop concentrating on your OPPONENTS play and look at your own.

[/ QUOTE ]

For the love of God, and for the last time, I got an opponent to call as a 3 to 1 underdog , getting about 1.2-1.3 to 1 pot odds, for about 75% of his stack, and you are criticizing this as a bad play ???
What do you consider a good play ?? Really.

Re: HELP !!!! How do people call this ????
 

plays that make sense

shoving 4x pot doesnt make much sense. i personally would check/shove. let him put $ into the pot. then he should fold to the shove unless he pot commited himself, or he overvalues AK. even if the raiser has AA, you have 13 outs twice

Re: HELP !!!! How do people call this ????
 

Is the point of this post anything other than to whine about "bad beats" (which the first one was...not)?

Re: HELP !!!! How do people call this ????
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
you need to stop concentrating on your OPPONENTS play and look at your own.

[/ QUOTE ]

For the love of God, and for the last time, I got an opponent to call as a 3 to 1 underdog , getting about 1.2-1.3 to 1 pot odds, for about 75% of his stack, and you are criticizing this as a bad play ???
What do you consider a good play ?? Really.

[/ QUOTE ]

You are in a headsup freezeout. The blinds are 1/2. You and your opponent each have 1 million in chips. Your opponent says "if you go allin I will call with any pair, and fold anything else." You go allin with 33. He calls with 22 and you win. Good play?

And there is no justifying hand 1. Limping with 8 BB is so bad, but then calling half your stack in a raise. What if the flop comes 235? A74? Are you just folding? What if it's A74 with one diamond? Call for running diamonds? So very awful. It puts me on life tilt that someone like you has a 6 figure cash and still plays hands like this. F poker.

Re: HELP !!!! How do people call this ????
 

Trapped:

Do you ever consider that u really actually werent outdrawn, and that u made the mistake of coming in preflop with two undercards to AK (not too mention how terribly u came in), and that although u may have connected on the flop, there are 2 more cards to come, and when hands were randomly generated to gives us our golden preflop odds that we value so much, the chances of winning a hand takes into account ALL 5 cards on the board, not just the 3 where u happened to be ahead at one point. this isnt a bad beat. Ak should usually beat two undercards.

also, a MTT isnt all about one hand obviously, i would assume, from the plays uve described above, u had already damaged ur table image earlier to these players, and they had no respect for u or ur style of play

Re: HELP !!!! How do people call this ????
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
you need to stop concentrating on your OPPONENTS play and look at your own.

[/ QUOTE ]

For the love of God, and for the last time, I got an opponent to call as a 3 to 1 underdog , getting about 1.2-1.3 to 1 pot odds, for about 75% of his stack, and you are criticizing this as a bad play ???
What do you consider a good play ?? Really.

[/ QUOTE ]

You are in a headsup freezeout. The blinds are 1/2. You and your opponent each have 1 million in chips. Your opponent says "if you go allin I will call with any pair, and fold anything else." You go allin with 33. He calls with 22 and you win. Good play?

And there is no justifying hand 1. Limping with 8 BB is so bad, but then calling half your stack in a raise. What if the flop comes 235? A74? Are you just folding? What if it's A74 with one diamond? Call for running diamonds? So very awful. It puts me on life tilt that someone like you has a 6 figure cash and still plays hands like this. F poker.

[/ QUOTE ]
Try reading the whole thread before you make accusations. I admitted the first hand was a bad play (because villian had great pot odds, and calling 800 more was only 7-8% of his stack) and only posted it to contrast the the second hand which is almost identical, BUT was played with a bigger "M"'s and nearly identical stack sizes, and almost even money pot odds.
Honestly, the more and more I think about this, the more and more I think its not only a good play, BUT a great play.
It seems like most of you would've called or at least entertained one. The next tourney I play, I'm shoving and overbetting the pot like hell when I flop the stone nuts. Hopefully, I'm sure one of you will call with underpair or AK high.

Re: HELP !!!! How do people call this ????
 

[ QUOTE ]
Trapped:

Do you ever consider that u really actually werent outdrawn, and that u made the mistake of coming in preflop with two undercards to AK (not too mention how terribly u came in), and that although u may have connected on the flop, there are 2 more cards to come, and when hands were randomly generated to gives us our golden preflop odds that we value so much, the chances of winning a hand takes into account ALL 5 cards on the board, not just the 3 where u happened to be ahead at one point. this isnt a bad beat. Ak should usually beat two undercards.

also, a MTT isnt all about one hand obviously, i would assume, from the plays uve described above, u had already damaged ur table image earlier to these players, and they had no respect for u or ur style of play

[/ QUOTE ]
So, let me understand this, your argument was that AK should beat JT, therefore, villians call was correct, no matter what flops or how the betting plays out??
That's like me saying that 66 is a preflop favorite over KQ, and if KKQ flops, I should call a reraise all-in if the limper pushes and hope to catch running 6's for quads. Which by the way, this actually happened to me once where I completed the SB and flopped a boat against the preflop BB raiser. I lead out (1st to act, sound familiar?) and was trying to portray buying the pot. Villian raised and I went all in, he calls with 66 and catches running 6's. WHat a great play by villian, huh ?

As far as your second comment, table had no read on me since I literally folded for an hour straight, was running card dead. They should've read me at the least, tight and waiting for a hand to make a move. But had you taken the time to read the thread, you've seen that.

Re: HELP !!!! How do people call this ????
 

Why are you playing both $3 and $163 tournies? You are either wasting your time in one, or hopelessly outclassed in the other.

I'd encourage you to remember than noone (well very few) at the high buyin games plays a hand in isolation. They remember your action before, will have been looking at the hands you play and how you have played them.

I'm guessing, but I suspect that your previous action was analysed so that villain in hand #2 put you on air. Are you thinking about the image villain has of you? You claim that you can bluff the straight. Virtually no-one will overbet with the nuts, unless it is a cunning double-bluff against a villain with previous history, so its virtually impossible for villain here to put you on that. Its possible this image was reinforced by you slow-playing some made hands earlier.

Re: HELP !!!! How do people call this ????
 

[ QUOTE ]
Why are you playing both $3 and $163 tournies? You are either wasting your time in one, or hopelessly outclassed in the other.

I'd encourage you to remember than noone (well very few) at the high buyin games plays a hand in isolation. They remember your action before, will have been looking at the hands you play and how you have played them.

I'm guessing, but I suspect that your previous action was analysed so that villain in hand #2 put you on air. Are you thinking about the image villain has of you? You claim that you can bluff the straight. Virtually no-one will overbet with the nuts, unless it is a cunning double-bluff against a villain with previous history, so its virtually impossible for villain here to put you on that. Its possible this image was reinforced by you slow-playing some made hands earlier.

[/ QUOTE ]
I'm playing the $3 tourney because I have 2 PC's running and 1st spot pays over $6000 (you would've known that if you read the original post, Starts $3 rebuy, take a look at it next time. Was the only other tourney running at the time paying a comparable payout to the Full Tilt one.)\
My table image in the second hand was tight. I was moved to it an hour earlier and folded EVERY hand until the one in question.

Re: HELP !!!! How do people call this ????
 

you seem like a total dink!

Re: HELP !!!! How do people call this ????
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Why are you playing both $3 and $163 tournies? You are either wasting your time in one, or hopelessly outclassed in the other.

I'd encourage you to remember than noone (well very few) at the high buyin games plays a hand in isolation. They remember your action before, will have been looking at the hands you play and how you have played them.

I'm guessing, but I suspect that your previous action was analysed so that villain in hand #2 put you on air. Are you thinking about the image villain has of you? You claim that you can bluff the straight. Virtually no-one will overbet with the nuts, unless it is a cunning double-bluff against a villain with previous history, so its virtually impossible for villain here to put you on that. Its possible this image was reinforced by you slow-playing some made hands earlier.

[/ QUOTE ]
I'm playing the $3 tourney because I have 2 PC's running and 1st spot pays over $6000 (you would've known that if you read the original post, Starts $3 rebuy, take a look at it next time. Was the only other tourney running at the time paying a comparable payout to the Full Tilt one.)\
My table image in the second hand was tight. I was moved to it an hour earlier and folded EVERY hand until the one in question.

[/ QUOTE ]

Weak-tight much?

I'll not do what other posters have done, which is use brute force to make you see how horribly bad your plays were.

They were. Surely you can think of better plays than that. If not, well, OK, then there are huge gaps in your game. Which will be very exploitable in the long run by a high-buyin MTT player, and even a good % of 3r players.

Did it occur to you, perhaps, in hand 2 that you could've value-bet this player instead? Fire flop for 800? This "I shoved and got called by a worse hand and he sucked out" results-oriented attitude and the hostility towards other posters is incorrect and will not get you the advice you're seeming to seek.

If you're here to brag about your insignificant result in a $200 buyin, congratulations, BBV will widen your [censored] while calling you a lucky tourney donk.

And they would be right. Bad players frequently go deep or win tournaments, and it is not because they're skilled. It's because tournaments are profitable consistently over a large volume for good, skilled players. But any random donk can win one, regardless of buyin, enough times to keep them all coming back for more.

If you're looking for advice and to learn, whether practically or theortically, you came to the right place, although like with a profusion of advice from varying skill levels, some is bad.

The advice you've gotten so far in this thread hasn't been bad. You've responded to it with results-oriented [censored].

So, can you think of a few better lines for playing hand #2 and extracting value instead of openshoving overpot, holdilng your nose and hoping he calls off his stack on a miracle? If you can't, you're in the wrong forum.

Re: HELP !!!! How do people call this ????
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Why are you playing both $3 and $163 tournies? You are either wasting your time in one, or hopelessly outclassed in the other.

I'd encourage you to remember than noone (well very few) at the high buyin games plays a hand in isolation. They remember your action before, will have been looking at the hands you play and how you have played them.

I'm guessing, but I suspect that your previous action was analysed so that villain in hand #2 put you on air. Are you thinking about the image villain has of you? You claim that you can bluff the straight. Virtually no-one will overbet with the nuts, unless it is a cunning double-bluff against a villain with previous history, so its virtually impossible for villain here to put you on that. Its possible this image was reinforced by you slow-playing some made hands earlier.

[/ QUOTE ]
I'm playing the $3 tourney because I have 2 PC's running and 1st spot pays over $6000 (you would've known that if you read the original post, Starts $3 rebuy, take a look at it next time. Was the only other tourney running at the time paying a comparable payout to the Full Tilt one.)\
My table image in the second hand was tight. I was moved to it an hour earlier and folded EVERY hand until the one in question.

[/ QUOTE ]

Weak-tight much?

I'll not do what other posters have done, which is use brute force to make you see how horribly bad your plays were.

They were. Surely you can think of better plays than that. If not, well, OK, then there are huge gaps in your game. Which will be very exploitable in the long run by a high-buyin MTT player, and even a good % of 3r players.

Did it occur to you, perhaps, in hand 2 that you could've value-bet this player instead? Fire flop for 800? This "I shoved and got called by a worse hand and he sucked out" results-oriented attitude and the hostility towards other posters is incorrect and will not get you the advice you're seeming to seek.

If you're here to brag about your insignificant result in a $200 buyin, congratulations, BBV will widen your [censored] while calling you a lucky tourney donk.

And they would be right. Bad players frequently go deep or win tournaments, and it is not because they're skilled. It's because tournaments are profitable consistently over a large volume for good, skilled players. But any random donk can win one, regardless of buyin, enough times to keep them all coming back for more.

If you're looking for advice and to learn, whether practically or theortically, you came to the right place, although like with a profusion of advice from varying skill levels, some is bad.

The advice you've gotten so far in this thread hasn't been bad. You've responded to it with results-oriented [censored].

So, can you think of a few better lines for playing hand #2 and extracting value instead of openshoving overpot, holdilng your nose and hoping he calls off his stack on a miracle? If you can't, you're in the wrong forum.

[/ QUOTE ]
This thread is too funny.
I counted 8 or 9 direct or indirect personal insults and then stopped counting.
Congratulations. I am honored by your presence if you think that a $100,000 + cash on an online tourney is insignificant.
On keeping with the subject how badly I played this hand, I'd like to bring up an example, believe it or not, where I played QJ suited the ""conventional way"" a few nights back in a FT $5/$10 NL ring game.
I bought in for the standard $400. Didn't play any pots aside of my blinds when it was cheap. Two orbits go by when I have QJ of spades in the BB with $375 left. Cutoff (has $1000 or so) makes it $45 to go, folds to me, and the hand was too pretty not to see a flop for $35 more. Flop comes 3d Qc 4d. I check top pair (instead of lead out, hopefully you all aprove), pot is $95. Cutoff bets $80 (not pot) as I read as a contination bet. So I shove all in costing villian $250 more in a pot that is $255, plus my $250 to call. You guessed it, villian calls with AK high (non diamonds) and my hand holds up.
So I played this hand the conventional way, as many of you have tried to recommend, AND STILL got CALLED down with AK high. Go figure.

Re: HELP !!!! How do people call this ????
 

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Why are you playing both $3 and $163 tournies? You are either wasting your time in one, or hopelessly outclassed in the other.

I'd encourage you to remember than noone (well very few) at the high buyin games plays a hand in isolation. They remember your action before, will have been looking at the hands you play and how you have played them.

I'm guessing, but I suspect that your previous action was analysed so that villain in hand #2 put you on air. Are you thinking about the image villain has of you? You claim that you can bluff the straight. Virtually no-one will overbet with the nuts, unless it is a cunning double-bluff against a villain with previous history, so its virtually impossible for villain here to put you on that. Its possible this image was reinforced by you slow-playing some made hands earlier.

[/ QUOTE ]
I'm playing the $3 tourney because I have 2 PC's running and 1st spot pays over $6000 (you would've known that if you read the original post, Starts $3 rebuy, take a look at it next time. Was the only other tourney running at the time paying a comparable payout to the Full Tilt one.)\
My table image in the second hand was tight. I was moved to it an hour earlier and folded EVERY hand until the one in question.

[/ QUOTE ]

Weak-tight much?

I'll not do what other posters have done, which is use brute force to make you see how horribly bad your plays were.

They were. Surely you can think of better plays than that. If not, well, OK, then there are huge gaps in your game. Which will be very exploitable in the long run by a high-buyin MTT player, and even a good % of 3r players.

Did it occur to you, perhaps, in hand 2 that you could've value-bet this player instead? Fire flop for 800? This "I shoved and got called by a worse hand and he sucked out" results-oriented attitude and the hostility towards other posters is incorrect and will not get you the advice you're seeming to seek.

If you're here to brag about your insignificant result in a $200 buyin, congratulations, BBV will widen your [censored] while calling you a lucky tourney donk.

And they would be right. Bad players frequently go deep or win tournaments, and it is not because they're skilled. It's because tournaments are profitable consistently over a large volume for good, skilled players. But any random donk can win one, regardless of buyin, enough times to keep them all coming back for more.

If you're looking for advice and to learn, whether practically or theortically, you came to the right place, although like with a profusion of advice from varying skill levels, some is bad.

The advice you've gotten so far in this thread hasn't been bad. You've responded to it with results-oriented [censored].

So, can you think of a few better lines for playing hand #2 and extracting value instead of openshoving overpot, holdilng your nose and hoping he calls off his stack on a miracle? If you can't, you're in the wrong forum.

[/ QUOTE ]
This thread is too funny.
I counted 8 or 9 direct or indirect personal insults and then stopped counting.
Congratulations. I am honored by your presence if you think that a $100,000 + cash on an online tourney is insignificant.
On keeping with the subject how badly I played this hand, I'd like to bring up an example, believe it or not, where I played QJ suited the ""conventional way"" a few nights back in a FT $5/$10 NL ring game.
I bought in for the standard $400. Didn't play any pots aside of my blinds when it was cheap. Two orbits go by when I have QJ of spades in the BB with $375 left. Cutoff (has $1000 or so) makes it $45 to go, folds to me, and the hand was too pretty not to see a flop for $35 more. Flop comes 3d Qc 4d. I check top pair (instead of lead out, hopefully you all aprove), pot is $95. Cutoff bets $80 (not pot) as I read as a contination bet. So I shove all in costing villian $250 more in a pot that is $255, plus my $250 to call. You guessed it, villian calls with AK high (non diamonds) and my hand holds up.
So I played this hand the conventional way, as many of you have tried to recommend, AND STILL got CALLED down with AK high. Go figure.

[/ QUOTE ]

I just figured it out - the conventional way to play QJ UTG with 8BB left in a MTT is to buy into a cash game. Now I see the genius of the OP.

Re: HELP !!!! How do people call this ????
 

Well *I* didn't insult you. Not my style.

You should separate criticism of your poker plays, from personal attacks. If I post a hand here, I expect my play to be criticised. Thats why I post it here. I think about the points raised and try and decide whether they are valid, and hopefully improve my game. If I don't listen I will never learn.

I'm struck by your comment that 'I check top pair (instead of lead out, hopefully you all aprove)'. That is the point I was making - that if you routinely do this (which I don't suggest BTW) then when you do make a big bet people can't put you on a made hand.

Oh, and the subject should really be 'Help - how can I get people to keep calling like this ???'