Nut flush draw faces aggression
 

First hand post here...I'm curious what you think. Preflop raise ok? Should I raise the turn here? Was 3-betting the flop ok?

I'd just sat down so no reads.

Full Tilt Poker
Limit Holdem Ring game
Limit: $0.25/$0.5
9 players
Converter

Pre-flop: (9 players) hero is MP1 with A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]
UTG calls, UTG+1 folds, <font color="#cc0000">hero raises</font>, 5 folds, BB calls, UTG calls.

Flop: 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (6.4SB, 3 players)
BB checks, UTG checks, <font color="#cc0000">hero bets</font>, <font color="#cc0000">BB raises</font>, UTG folds, <font color="#cc0000">hero 3-bets</font>, <font color="#cc0000">BB caps</font>, hero calls.

Turn: 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (7.2BB, 2 players)
<font color="#cc0000">BB bets</font>, hero calls.

River: T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (9.2BB, 2 players)
BB checks, hero checks.

Results:
Final pot: 9.2BB

Re: Nut flush draw faces aggression
 

Dont raise pre-flop.
Dont bet or raise on the flop.
Call on the turn - fine.
River - perfect!

Edit: The converter did something wrong. Betting is ok on the flop with 6 (?) players, not with 3.

Re: Nut flush draw faces aggression
 

unterfish,

http://twoplustwo.com/books.html#Small%20Stakes%20Hold'em

might be helpful for you.

Re: Nut flush draw faces aggression
 

Lol. Thanks. Havent heard about it yet. Is that new?
Since I usually play 1k/2k I dont know if its of interest for me.

Re: Nut flush draw faces aggression
 

hi unterfish,

i just thought, given your advice in this thread, you might want to re-think your understanding of equity.

i'll ask some questions here, though, to get the ball rolling.

how many outs does hero have?

what are the odds of making that draw?

what is the pot offering a bet? (aka immediate odds).

what do you think the implied odds are here?

what kind of range do you give bb?

how does hero's equity relate vis a vis bb's range?

helpfully,

john

Re: Nut flush draw faces aggression
 

[ QUOTE ]
helpfully,

john

[/ QUOTE ]


ZOMG!!!!1!!!!!11111!

It's like looking in a mirror.

Re: Nut flush draw faces aggression
 

Ok. Shadow... Without reading your digest Im gonna think about it because you try so hard...
Well, the problem is: you dont give solutions. You give questions.
But since you put it friendly, Ill try again.

Re: Nut flush draw faces aggression
 

unterfish,

if i rattled off the answers to this hand or any hand posted here, how much would you learn?

boz,

holla!

holla.

Re: Nut flush draw faces aggression
 

[ QUOTE ]

how does hero's equity relate vis a vis bb's range?

helpfully,

john

[/ QUOTE ]

Well. Yeah. I answered in my mind all the questions you gave me except this question.
Help me out!
And this time give a statement, not a question!

Re: Nut flush draw faces aggression
 

in your mind doesn't count.

post!

don't be afraid to be wrong.

Re: Nut flush draw faces aggression
 

[ QUOTE ]

don't be afraid to be wrong.

[/ QUOTE ]
Shadow, my friend. Again:
[ QUOTE ]

don't be afraid to be wrong.

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: Nut flush draw faces aggression
 

OP:
if you know utg is weak/loose raising is fine. if there were 2-3 limpers i would limp behind with your hand.
I'm not sure about the flop 3-bet, although my gut says it's pretty close

Re: Nut flush draw faces aggression
 

unterfish,

?

i'm not afriad to be wrong. look at some of my first posts like 2.5 years ago. i'll post my answer (which is correct) when you answer my questions. if you don't want to, that's okay. i don't particularly care if you get better at poker or not. if you do, i can facillitate that process.

holla.

Re: Nut flush draw faces aggression
 

Lol. Thats fine.
I dont know how excelled as a poker pro though. Thats fine by me. Because I dont want to read all these threads.
But still my question:
How would you answer your last question?
Im serious here. Because if you know, enlighten me.
If you dont... well, you know.

Re: Nut flush draw faces aggression
 

i'd rather not waste my time here, ace.

the short story here is that hero likely has a huge equity edge against 2 players here and he should get in as many bets as possible. once it gets to heads up, he still has 15 outs, which will come in &gt;50% of the time and thus he is stil at a commanding equity position. because of certain hand ranges, however, hero might not have the full 15 outs and he might also be subject to redraws.

thus, the initial raise is good, the 3-bet is more marginal, but still okay. i prefer not to 3-bet there, but there are certainly very legitimate reasons to do so, including equity, free cards, and others.

Re: Nut flush draw faces aggression
 

Umm. Are you so sure about 15 outs on the flop given the action?
And I dont understand it on the turn because... You still just dont have 15 outs... And if you have them on the turn, you still dont have the odds for 50% or more.
Umm, maybe Im understanding something wrong here, but...
Maybe... you know,.... maybe you do. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: Nut flush draw faces aggression
 

no, i'm not sure about the 15 outs given the action.

when it's hero's first action i think that 15 outs is a pretty reasonable guess. by the time it gets capped, i'm sure he has less than 15 outs. i know for sure that he probably has 9 to the nuts.

i don't know what this sentence means:

[ QUOTE ]
And I dont understand it on the turn because... You still just dont have 15 outs... And if you have them on the turn, you still dont have the odds for 50% or more.


[/ QUOTE ]

we might have even picked up some outs on the turn. likely not, but there's no way we're folding.

i don't really understand the rest of your post, either.

but i think that you're probably misunderstanding important pot equity concepts. i suggest that you revist sshe.

Re: Nut flush draw faces aggression
 

Ok.
[ QUOTE ]

i'd rather not waste my time here, ace.

the short story here is that hero likely has a huge equity edge against 2 players here and he should get in as many bets as possible. once it gets to heads up, he still has 15 outs, which will come in &gt;50% of the time and thus he is stil at a commanding equity position. because of certain hand ranges, however, hero might not have the full 15 outs and he might also be subject to redraws.

thus, the initial raise is good, the 3-bet is more marginal, but still okay. i prefer not to 3-bet there, but there are certainly very legitimate reasons to do so, including equity, free cards, and others.

[/ QUOTE ]

So, where has Hero a "huge quity edge"? On the flop, maybe. But the flop was capped anyway. So:::: On the Turn???
Where do you think to 3-bet here?
Where is your edge more than 50%?

Re: Nut flush draw faces aggression
 

hero has a huge equity edge at his initial decision on the flop.

you can't justify your argument of not having an edge at the initial decision because the flop was capped.

edge is greater than 50% on the flop for sure. on the turn, it becomes less clear, but his edge is still greater than the odds that the pot is offering.

i was advocating a 3-bet nowhere in this hand. i said that there are compelling arguments for one on the flop and that such a 3-bet probably isn't a losing proposition. i happen to think that calling and raising when you hit is a "bigger winning proposition", meaning the net gain from 3-betting is less than the net gain from waiting. that's just a gut instinct and i could be wrong there. i'd have to do some math, but frankly, i have better things to do then walk you through this entire thing step-by-step.

Re: Nut flush draw faces aggression
 

[ QUOTE ]
So, where has Hero a "huge quity edge"? On the flop, maybe. But the flop was capped anyway. So:::: On the Turn???
Where do you think to 3-bet here?
Where is your edge more than 50%?

[/ QUOTE ]

I'll give it a shot. I'm not as nice as Shadow:

UNTER, YOU HAVE TO AT LEAST TRY IT YOURSELF AND POST YOUR ANSWERS BEFORE ANYBODY WILL HELP YOU ANY FURTHER. THAT IS HOW ONE LEARNS.

If we just give you all the answers, then you've learned nothing. If you say, "ok, I've figured out all the answers," but don't tell us what they are, how are we to ever check your work. Just like primary-school maths, show your work for partial credit. Now, go back to Shadow's original list of questions and answer all of them, and we'll take it from there tomorrow.

Re: Nut flush draw faces aggression
 

[ QUOTE ]
hero has a huge equity edge at his initial decision on the flop.

you can't justify your argument of not having an edge at the initial decision because the flop was capped.

edge is greater than 50% on the flop for sure. on the turn, it becomes less clear, but his edge is still greater than the odds that the pot is offering.

i was advocating a 3-bet nowhere in this hand. i said that there are compelling arguments for one on the flop and that such a 3-bet probably isn't a losing proposition. i happen to think that calling and raising when you hit is a "bigger winning proposition", meaning the net gain from 3-betting is less than the net gain from waiting. that's just a gut instinct and i could be wrong there. i'd have to do some math, but frankly, i have better things to do then walk you through this entire thing step-by-step.

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Yes. And thats right. And you should better not have your gut feeling over your... whatever.
Anyway: you asked the initial question to me, remember?
So... well... so... go UTube!

Re: Nut flush draw faces aggression
 

Hrm... should I enter this thread or is shadow and unterfish having a little one-on-one time. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]


Preflop raising is fine if you're trying to isolate a weak UTG, if that wasn't your goal then just call, especially if your opponents like to play lots of hands. Any reads on UTG?

I don't 3-bet here. I generally consider C/r to be a sign of strength and unless i have a monster hand myself I try not to get into a raising war HU.

Multiway things change because of the equity edge of course.

Turn is an AWFUL card. Maybe the worst in the deck because it kills your straight outs. Although, BB in this hand might have flopped a straight so those outs might be dead anyway, so c/c is good.

River is a good sign that we're splitting here, he'd bet a higher straight for sure, easy check.

Re: Nut flush draw faces aggression
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
hero has a huge equity edge at his initial decision on the flop.

you can't justify your argument of not having an edge at the initial decision because the flop was capped.

edge is greater than 50% on the flop for sure. on the turn, it becomes less clear, but his edge is still greater than the odds that the pot is offering.

i was advocating a 3-bet nowhere in this hand. i said that there are compelling arguments for one on the flop and that such a 3-bet probably isn't a losing proposition. i happen to think that calling and raising when you hit is a "bigger winning proposition", meaning the net gain from 3-betting is less than the net gain from waiting. that's just a gut instinct and i could be wrong there. i'd have to do some math, but frankly, i have better things to do then walk you through this entire thing step-by-step.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes. And thats right. And you should better not have your gut feeling over your... whatever.
Anyway: you asked the initial question to me, remember?
So... well... so... go UTube!

[/ QUOTE ]

I like peanut butter and jam ... strawberry jam over raspberry

does anyone else?

Re: Nut flush draw faces aggression
 

Its getting boring I know.
Was that your commitment?

Re: Nut flush draw faces aggression
 

Strawberry jam is the nuts.

Re: Nut flush draw faces aggression
 

*grunch*

I probably wouldn't raise PF. A6s is not a hand I want to play heads up or against 2 players who cold call or RR me, not without very good reads on the other players.

As played PF, the flop c-bet is fine. 3-betting the flop is also ok but I'd just as often call (if I'm not going for a free turn card). You got at least 13 outs here (15 if your generous) but your pot equity isn't &gt;50% so next time you might as well just call the raise. At this point I'm thinking BB has either a set or 2-pair. Hmm...if he's got 4-6 outs to beat your flush or straight you have him covered around 2:1 so maybe the raise is fine anyway.

Turn is fine to call, pot odds justify that. The river check is fine also. Without reads I would be inclined to believe that anything that beats me (J) will c/r and anything I beat folds. Hmm, maybe villain would call w a straight on the board but anyway.

ETA: Flop should be a call. Your pot equity doesn't justify a raise.

ETA2: I didn't see that you had two opponents at the flop, thought it was one. With two your equity is just fine for the raise.

Re: Nut flush draw faces aggression
 

dear unterfish,

are you European, or are you just addicted to opium? perhaps both?

dear preserves fans,

i agree that strawberry jam kicks ass, but the world would be a sad place indeed without raspberry and boysenberry jellies.

Re: Nut flush draw faces aggression
 

Dear Tyler,

Id love to be but Im just European.
So. I dont care.
But I still know the American academia system.
Holla?

Re: Nut flush draw faces aggression
 

[ QUOTE ]
dear preserves fans,

i agree that strawberry jam kicks ass, but the world would be a sad place indeed without raspberry and boysenberry jellies.

[/ QUOTE ]

Blackberry jam, and it's not even close.

Re: Nut flush draw faces aggression
 

[ QUOTE ]
Blackberry jam, and it's not even close.

[/ QUOTE ]

i certainly wouldn't kick blackberry jam off my toast.

Re: Nut flush draw faces aggression
 

i didnt read everything but raising UTG+1 preflop is eliminating opponents with a drawing hand. Why would you do that? The point of Axs is to build a big pot to play for so you should limp-reraise preflop if you must raise. Then when you flop a four flush you have all kinds of odds and a huge pot to win when/if you hit.

Re: Nut flush draw faces aggression
 

Grunch

Preflop: Fold. A6s is not a raising hand from MP1 in this situation. It might be at a tight table with tight blinds but you have just sat down so i assume you dont know if both these conditions are true.
Flop: You have flopped the nut flush draw and an OESD which leaves you with 17 outs. However i believe we have to discount some of the OESD outs as yours is the bottom end of the draw. But i'm not sure how much we discount this for. (i might find out when i read the other replies to this post).
As for the action i believe a call is in order given BB's check/raise and getting 4.7:1 for a call.
Turn: As played call is fine.
River: Interesting. You have hit a straight and its been checked to you. Did you consider a bet for value?

In answering your questions i dont believe a preflop raise was ok, i dont 3-bet this flop and i dont raise this turn

Re: Nut flush draw faces aggression
 

[ QUOTE ]
River: Interesting. You have hit a straight and its been checked to you. Did you consider a bet for value?

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pajo, you might want to take another look at the board. If Hero bets this river, it's certainly not for value.

Re: Nut flush draw faces aggression
 

[ QUOTE ]
i didnt read everything but raising UTG+1 preflop is eliminating opponents with a drawing hand. Why would you do that? The point of Axs is to build a big pot to play for so you should limp-reraise preflop if you must raise.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well Hero is MP1 here, not UTG+1. And Axs doesn't always have to be played as a "drawing hand". There are certainly times and occasions where a pre-flop raise is certainly correct (open-raising, raising in position after one or two loose limpers, etc.). I'm not saying this is one of those situations, but don't narrowly put Axs into a category of hands and play it only one way.

Re: Nut flush draw faces aggression
 

Preserves &gt; Jam &gt; Jelly and it's not even close.

Some of you are exercising poor breakfast table selection and obviously aren't used to spread games.

I'm still trying to figure out when to raise Axs. If I have 7 people left to act after me, I always limp. Am I missing some good opps and should I consider raising on tight tables?

Re: Nut flush draw faces aggression
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
River: Interesting. You have hit a straight and its been checked to you. Did you consider a bet for value?

[/ QUOTE ]

pajo, you might want to take another look at the board. If Hero bets this river, it's certainly not for value.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ok, misapplication of the value betting concept on my behalf then. Is betting here ever correct when villain checks?

Re: Nut flush draw faces aggression
 

[ QUOTE ]
Ok, misapplication of the value betting concept on my behalf then. Is betting here ever correct when villain checks?

[/ QUOTE ]

Value-betting is betting when the percentage of time you expect to win the pot &gt; the percentage of bets you're putting in the pot if you get called. Given that you're playing the board, this cannot be a value bet. That said, you answer your own question. What needs to be true in order to consider betting, what's that called, and what's your plan if c/r'ed?

Re: Nut flush draw faces aggression
 

grunch
preflop: limp don't raise.
flop: don't 3-bet. Just call.
turn and river are good.