Career Decision: Software vs. Trading
 

I currently have a pretty good offer (deadline next week, $20k for the summer) from Microsoft as a software engineer for the summer (I worked there last summer too), but I'm also really interested in trading. I'm an Electrical Engineering and Computer Science major at UC Berkeley.

I also have ~$50k worth of money that I'm investing in the market that I made from playing online poker. I enjoy trading, and have an internship working for an asset manager and trying to learn as much about trading/markets. I've been actively trading for about 2 months now.

I'm also planning on applying for a Masters in Financial Engineering program.

So here's my dilemma:
1. Take the Microsoft position (and maybe recruit for full time trading next year)
2. Try to delay the Microsoft offer to recruit (but then the company will know i'm not committed to them and that it might be a backup decision)
2. Take Microsoft, recruit for S&T, and maybe accept if I get an offer (but burn bridges with Microsoft)

Other things to consider are that if I take Microsoft, I can relax and not do any work for the remaining year and a half in college. If I take Microsoft, it'll boost my pay when i go into FT. If I stick with software as a career, my pay will prob cap out a lot faster, and I don't plan on going to grad school in engineering.

Thanks for reading and I appreciate your advice.

Eric

Re: Career Decision: Software vs. Trading
 

this is a poker forum

Re: Career Decision: Software vs. Trading
 

def do trading. you will be much happier trading in 5 years than doing anything software related (and making 10x more money)

Re: Career Decision: Software vs. Trading
 

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def do trading. you will be much happier trading in 5 years than doing anything software related (and making 10x more money)

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: Career Decision: Software vs. Trading
 

i am a trader. i think you should be a trader over being a engineer.

Re: Career Decision: Software vs. Trading
 

i am an engineer. i think you should be a trader over being a engineer.

Re: Career Decision: Software vs. Trading
 

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i am an engineer. i think you should be a trader over being a engineer.

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Re: Career Decision: Software vs. Trading
 

I'm an Electrical Engineer for Lockheed Martin, and it sucks! Go be a professional poker player!

Re: Career Decision: Software vs. Trading
 

Do both - find a job where you program automated trading systems - that's the future (or right now) anyways...

Re: Career Decision: Software vs. Trading
 

I once read that if you are smart enough to be an engineer you are smart enough not to be an engineer. Does anyone who does it like it?

Re: Career Decision: Software vs. Trading
 

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I once read that if you are smart enough to be an engineer you are smart enough not to be an engineer. Does anyone who does it like it?

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Engineering is pretty broad though. I'm sure theres some high ranking engineers with MBAs and a wealth of experience who can pull 300k a year + a ton of benefits. Or engineers who start their own companies and go on to make millions. Having a skill doesn't entitle you to anything, its how you use it.

Post deleted by Mat Sklansky
 

Re: Career Decision: Software vs. Trading
 

plenty of ppl like it, but it's the type of thing where if you have to ask if you should be a trader or programmer....

Re: Career Decision: Software vs. Trading
 

I worked for MSFT for a long time and if you're going that route and you can get on at Google, I'd go there rather than MSFT right now. MSFT is a great company but Google is the hot place now, MSFT is an old (not dying) stable elephant. You won't get options than wind up making you a fortune and you'd probably be somewhere well under $200k/year as a software guy - even guys that have been around a long time are under $200k, few get anywhere even close to 200.

There is the http://minimsft.blogspot.com/ blog which gives some interesting and fairly accurate insights into MSFT that MSFT would rather not be out there. I'd look at it a bit before you make your decision too.

Traders, from what I've read and heard, don't have that kind of cap on their earnings - you might be able to make a lot of money as a trader I don't know for sure though.

Re: Career Decision: Software vs. Trading
 

I interned at GS a few summers ago...now I work in credit research.... Equity/options trading is exciting and can be VERY profitable. However, who you will work for and what your long term goals are count alot. If you end up at a good shop you can probably make good money for 3-10 years without NEEDing a hiatus (faarrrr more stressfull than poker). But, chances are, you wont be able to easily get back into a software firm at an appropriate level for your high cal resume (conversely, after time in softwar u would be able to easily trade on the street if you pass Level I CFA among other tests).
I'd say, if you have software company ambitions, you'll be able to start one of your own with the capital you've amassed from a trading job. Wall street is ok and will challenge your will power/drive mostly, then your intellect. But the Street is about $$$
Software is kinda the inverse.

Re: Career Decision: Software vs. Trading
 

Most important thing is to go do what you are passionate about and will enjoy most. if thats software then do that, if its trading then do that. from your post it sounds like its trading tho.

if you are talented enough to get an offer from MS, get a trading offer, and make $50k playing poker then you will make money whatever you do so don't worry about that.

and if you are a junior then it makes more sense to do trading as you already know what working for MS is like but this is freeroll on seeing what trading is like. MS already likes you -- don't worry that they won't like you later, thats unlikely to happen, you just spin good story.

-g

Re: Career Decision: Software vs. Trading
 

The thing is, I'm not completely sure I'll enjoy trading. On top of that, I've heard from many sources that as an intern/analyst for S&T, you're basically grabbing coffee for senior members and get a lot of crap all the time. So I'll be sacrificing a pretty easy life style (with similar pay starting off) at Microsoft to get crapped on for like 2 years before I build credibility in trading.

Re: Career Decision: Software vs. Trading
 

I've actually heard that MSFT pays better than google right now (have you heard otherwise?). Although I have to admit, google's campus looks like a vacation resort and makes microsoft's look like a retirement home. Also, I'm in a pretty interesting department (TV Web Services), and not in the boring Office/Vista/whatever.

Re: Career Decision: Software vs. Trading
 

I'm a "high end" software engineer. People who love engineering love 1) to make things, 2) working on things that will leave a legacy (rather than just making money), 3) the team work involved, 4) technology/math/science.

I make mid 100s + benefits (about a 20k package) for a very low stress, fun, job and don't work too many hours (around 40 per week ave). I have also made around 500,000 from stock comp in addition to my salary over a 10 year career, but most of that was during the bubble. I'd say the EV on my stock comp over the next 5 years is probably only 70k on top of my salary.

Hope that helps.

Re: Career Decision: Software vs. Trading
 

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I once read that if you are smart enough to be an engineer you are smart enough not to be an engineer. Does anyone who does it like it?

[/ QUOTE ]

Good point. There are very few people in EECS at Berkeley that like it. I'd say more than 75% dislike it. Thing is, by the time you find out you want out, you're close enough to graduating that it's not worth switching.

Re: Career Decision: Software vs. Trading
 

Put it this way, I didn't hate it when I interned at MSFT last summer. There were some interesting moments, some boring, but overall it was pretty much something that I don't despise but don't truly love.

What I'm worried about with trading is that I might think I love it now, but I won't later on. It's kinda like poker. When I first started playing poker, I loved it. I read all the books at Barnes and bought every new book that came out. I read these forums 24/7 (didn't post that much tho). I'm doing the same for trading now.

After a while though, the enthusiasm kinda died down as the challenge went away. As I learned more about the game and started grinding out the tables, it got more and more boring. And when I lost my passion for the game, my winrate dwindled as well. I'd kinda compare it to the honeymoon stage of a relationship.

Re: Career Decision: Software vs. Trading
 

ep,

Do whatever you think you'll like more. Plenty of easy ways to make tons of money doing either thing in the Bay Area. Note that if you go the programming route and play poker on the side, you'll have plenty of money to trade on your own.

Re: Career Decision: Software vs. Trading
 

uhhh...diablo, are u still in college or something? work full time, play poker, and trade? NFW! It's tough enough sleeping 5or6 hours a night after long sessions then getting up for a 9 hour workday...trading is time consuming and requires research and news monitoring. unless u are a hypomaniac...impossible

Q
 

ya, Diablo is a punk kid.

I'll take a stab at your Q though: managing 10's or 100's of $k of your own money isn't as time consuming as managing $MM+ funds.

Re: Q
 

Orlando,

Lots of people work full time, play poker, and spend a lot of time on some other hobby, say training for triathlons. Or go out drinking a lot. Or watch a lot of TV. Or play videogames. Or countless other activities. Any of those pastimes can easily be replaced with trading if someone wants. I know a number of people who do this.

Re: Q
 

[ QUOTE ]
Orlando,

Lots of people work full time, play poker, and spend a lot of time on some other hobby, say training for triathlons. Or go out drinking a lot. Or watch a lot of TV. Or play videogames. Or countless other activities. Any of those pastimes can easily be replaced with trading if someone wants. I know a number of people who do this.

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This is 100% correct, however there is one stipulation. This person most likely does not have a girlfriend. Girlfriends are time consuming.

Re: Q
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Orlando,

Lots of people work full time, play poker, and spend a lot of time on some other hobby, say training for triathlons. Or go out drinking a lot. Or watch a lot of TV. Or play videogames. Or countless other activities. Any of those pastimes can easily be replaced with trading if someone wants. I know a number of people who do this.

[/ QUOTE ]
Girlfriends are time consuming.

[/ QUOTE ]
Understatement.

Re: Q
 

King,

That's not necessarily that hard to do with a girlfriend. Much harder to do when you're dating.

Note that I'm a lot older than you guys, so girlfriend means spending the night together just about every night and often living together.

If you have to carve out a lot of time for Six Flags trips and hanging out at the mall, yeah, that'll definitely eat up your free time.

Re: Q
 

You're a lot older so sleeping together with your girlfriend doesn't take a lot of time anymore? Correct me if I'm wrong, but that's what I got out of your post.

Re: Q
 

TWP,

"Going on dates" takes up bigger chunks of your free time.

Re: Career Decision: Software vs. Trading
 

[ QUOTE ]
uhhh...diablo, are u still in college or something? work full time, play poker, and trade? ...impossible

[/ QUOTE ]

Im in my final year at university, playing poker and trading - can fit them all in. only problem is im [censored] at all three.

Re: Career Decision: Software vs. Trading
 

Since this thread is off topic anyway, what exactly is trading? I understand software. I know what buying stocks and selling stocks entails, but how do you make money trading? Are you basically gambling in the market? Who pays people to do this? How do these places know that you aren't just gambling with their money? I know a lot of people who buy stocks or mutual funds as investments, and make a ton of money. I don't know anyone who makes money trying to "time" the market. Perhaps I am just unfamiliar with exactly what you are talking about. Are you trading your money or someone elses? How do you avoid losing to taxes + transaction fees?

Re: Career Decision: Software vs. Trading
 

max,

"how do you make money trading?"

Buy low, sell high.

Re: Career Decision: Software vs. Trading
 

you basically look at a firm, if it is undervalued you buy it with the belief that it will rise in value. you can then sell your share in the company for a higher value. you can also do the opposite if you think the company will fall in value.

when you work as a trader at a bank you are trading with the banks money and with private wealthy individuals money i believe. they train about technical aspects of being atraders after a rigorous application/interview process.

if you have enough money yourself you can do this on your own and take all the profits, rather than being given an annual salary plus a big bonus if youve done well. however, in general people dont have decent amount of money to make the profit after fees worth it and also often are not knowledgeable enough to trade successfully enough.

Re: Career Decision: Software vs. Trading
 

95% of traders lose money. It's not all about making profits from what you trade. That's speculating and very few traders are genuine speculators. A lot of trading has to do with securing whatever company your working for needs whatever that might be.

Re: Career Decision: Software vs. Trading
 

Tower,

How do you make money in poker despite rake and taxes?

Re: Career Decision: Software vs. Trading
 

You should probably take the job. And play poker/trade in your spare time. You can do as much trading as you like in your spare time and see how much you like it. Also most trading jobs want you to work like 80 hours+ a week whereas MSFT is probably 40 hr week depending on what dept. you are in. Quality of life is important too, think about that.

Re: Career Decision: Software vs. Trading
 

You guys are talking about two different things.
What is OP talking about when he says he wants to intern as a "trader"?
I can see that there might be a job where some bigwig boss tells you to go out and buy 100,000 shares of something, and that it is someone's job to conduct these transactions because transactions that large are complicated. Is this what you are talking about?

Or are we talking about "day trading"? If so, what company is going to put a 22 year old in charge of significant cash to try and make money. I don't see how this can be done especially considering taxes and transaction costs.

Re: Career Decision: Software vs. Trading
 

KingDan,
When I think about trading I think about a daytrader type guy and that seems to be what most people are referring to. There are probably people who have made money doing this, but 95% probably lose money, and of the 5% making money, 75% of them have probably just been lucky.
If you are talking about value investing where a person looks at the fundamentals of a company and purchases it when he thinks it is priced below the intrinsic value, then I certainly think big money can be made doing that. In that case I am just confusing your terminology. This however doesn't involve actually buying or selling shares on a daily or even weekly basis.

Re: Career Decision: Software vs. Trading
 

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95% of traders lose money.

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Uh no.

Throw it in an index fund until you go bye-bye.