Negreanu lumps Raymer w/ Moneymaker & Gold
 

So today's Las Vegas Sun has a poker article on Joe Hachem winning the Doyle Brunson - what I thought was most interesting however, was Daniel throwing Raymer under the 'novice' bus...

"Actually the (recent) World Series of Poker winners in general, you look at them and you're like OK, Moneymaker, Raymer, Gold, you think OK these guys can't play, and the general consensus is that these guys got lucky," Negreanu said.

"But you know, with Joe, he actually plays like a pro. The other three don't. The other three are kind of like flash-in-the-pan types..."


This seems like he's taking a direct shot at Greg to me. Thought it may be good fodder for NVG.

Re: Negreanu lumps Raymer w/ Moneymaker & Gold
 

Agree @ Moneymaker & Gold. Disagree with Raymer, he's a smart guy and a capable player, he's had a long standing history of success in trnys from his days as an attorney and has made monies since his WSOP win. Even finished 2nd in the Stars Sunday Million.

Re: Negreanu lumps Raymer w/ Moneymaker & Gold
 

Obviously Raymer shouldn't be lumped in with the other two...hence the point of posting it. Why would Daniel say that?

Re: Negreanu lumps Raymer w/ Moneymaker & Gold
 

Sounds like a continuation of the argument which came about around the time of the WSOP over the WPT lawsuit Greg was inolved in.

Re: Negreanu lumps Raymer w/ Moneymaker & Gold
 

Oh I know,

Jealousy? Tilt from his huge golf losses? Tired of Negreanus holier than thou attitude, he doesn't pull it off as well as say a Phil Hellmuth who (by all accounts) seems to be a class guy outside poker. Danny seems to be awfully judgmental and hardheaded.

Re: Negreanu lumps Raymer w/ Moneymaker & Gold
 

After watching HSP, I lump Negreanu in with the average NL50 player on Stars. [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

Re: Negreanu lumps Raymer w/ Moneymaker & Gold
 

Maybe DN liked Raymer until Raymer got way out of line with over the top insults all over pokerstars? I dunno

Re: Negreanu lumps Raymer w/ Moneymaker & Gold
 

If Gold had run well enough to win at Bellagio, Negreanu would be saying the same thing about him.

Re: Negreanu lumps Raymer w/ Moneymaker & Gold
 

Ribsauce, you know its a no-win argument on this site.

Re: Negreanu lumps Raymer w/ Moneymaker & Gold
 

[ QUOTE ]
So today's Las Vegas Sun has a poker article on Joe Hachem winning the Doyle Brunson - what I thought was most interesting however, was Daniel throwing Raymer under the 'novice' bus...

"Actually the (recent) World Series of Poker winners in general, you look at them and you're like OK, Moneymaker, Raymer, Gold, you think OK these guys can't play, and the general consensus is that these guys got lucky," Negreanu said.

"But you know, with Joe, he actually plays like a pro. The other three don't. The other three are kind of like flash-in-the-pan types..."


This seems like he's taking a direct shot at Greg to me. Thought it may be good fodder for NVG.

[/ QUOTE ]

The more i see DN and read/ listen to what he has to say the more he comes off like a bitter jerk. Maybe im reading him wrong ? i dont know what he has to be bitter about. But thats just my "read" on him. And everytime i hear him say something it just cements my thoughts on him.
That said, bitter attention seeking jerk or not i love to watch him play poker.

Re: Negreanu lumps Raymer w/ Moneymaker & Gold
 

[ QUOTE ]
Maybe DN liked Raymer until Raymer got way out of line with over the top insults all over pokerstars? I dunno

[/ QUOTE ]

link? Or at least some details?

Re: Negreanu lumps Raymer w/ Moneymaker & Gold
 

[ QUOTE ]
Ribsauce, you know its a no-win argument on this site.

[/ QUOTE ]I think Raymer is a great player obviously btw, just saying it should be pretty obvious why DN may not like him and would badmouth him like this

Re: Negreanu lumps Raymer w/ Moneymaker & Gold
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Maybe DN liked Raymer until Raymer got way out of line with over the top insults all over pokerstars? I dunno

[/ QUOTE ]

link? Or at least some details?

[/ QUOTE ]After DN said the WPT lawsuit should be dropped and the players should just not play if they didn't want to, Raymer called him a WPT sockpuppet and said he was glad he was out of the main event (this was like right after Negreanu got knocked out so it was pretty [censored] up to say), and said a bunch of other stuff while playing on pokerstars. It was so un-Raymer like the thread about it here actually was titled "Raymer's account hacked" because no one thought he would say [censored] like that. Then Negreanu apparently said some insults on his video blog but only 2 of those ever loaded so I don't know exactly what he said.

edit

also I thought all this crap was over and they were buddies again but I dunno I guess not. drama and all that

Re: Negreanu lumps Raymer w/ Moneymaker & Gold
 

[ QUOTE ]
Obviously Raymer shouldn't be lumped in with the other two...hence the point of posting it. Why would Daniel say that?

[/ QUOTE ]

Jealousy is my guess

Re: Negreanu lumps Raymer w/ Moneymaker & Gold
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Maybe DN liked Raymer until Raymer got way out of line with over the top insults all over pokerstars? I dunno

[/ QUOTE ]

link? Or at least some details?

[/ QUOTE ]After DN said the WPT lawsuit should be dropped and the players should just not play if they didn't want to, Raymer called him a WPT sockpuppet and said he was glad he was out of the main event (this was like right after Negreanu got knocked out so it was pretty [censored] up to say), and said a bunch of other stuff while playing on pokerstars. It was so un-Raymer like the thread about it here actually was titled "Raymer's account hacked" because no one thought he would say [censored] like that. Then Negreanu apparently said some insults on his video blog but only 2 of those ever loaded so I don't know exactly what he said.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks.

Re: Negreanu lumps Raymer w/ Moneymaker & Gold
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Obviously Raymer shouldn't be lumped in with the other two...hence the point of posting it. Why would Daniel say that?

[/ QUOTE ]

Jealousy is my guess

[/ QUOTE ]

same here, i did think raymer has backed up his WSOP win with some nice showings since...

Re: Negreanu lumps Raymer w/ Moneymaker & Gold
 

Here we go again with that Raymer/Negreneau stuff.
Geez.

Raymer actually had a pretty decent shot to win make the 2006 final-table as well. Ton of chips and ended up finishing 30th IIRC.

Even if Negreneau doesn't think Raymer is THAT spectacular it seems really inappropriate to lump him into 'amateur' status like that. It's not like he's Tiffany Williamson or something.


Then again, Raymer himself has said he thinks Moneymaker is a pretty good player.

And I think Gold's actual playing is probably a little better than what many people think. His extremely unlikeable personality is tainting people's opinion of his ability at the table.

Re: Negreanu lumps Raymer w/ Moneymaker & Gold
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Maybe DN liked Raymer until Raymer got way out of line with over the top insults all over pokerstars? I dunno

[/ QUOTE ]

link? Or at least some details?

[/ QUOTE ]After DN said the WPT lawsuit should be dropped and the players should just not play if they didn't want to, Raymer called him a WPT sockpuppet and said he was glad he was out of the main event (this was like right after Negreanu got knocked out so it was pretty [censored] up to say), and said a bunch of other stuff while playing on pokerstars. It was so un-Raymer like the thread about it here actually was titled "Raymer's account hacked" because no one thought he would say [censored] like that. Then Negreanu apparently said some insults on his video blog but only 2 of those ever loaded so I don't know exactly what he said.

[/ QUOTE ]

Negreanu is obviously behaving like a hormonal teenage girl, as was Raymer when he made his remarks about Daniel. Good for Raymer for apologizing for his part in taking the argument to Rosie/Donald levels, and hopefully Daniel will do the same. No one is going to confuse Raymer for Phil Ivey but he is clearly a much better player than Gold and Moneymaker and his record in tournaments over the last several years backs that up.

If Raymer wanted to get catty again he could ask Daniel how many times he's cashed in live events with over 2000 people. I think Raymer was 5 for 5 before the ME this summer.

Re: Negreanu lumps Raymer w/ Moneymaker & Gold
 

[ QUOTE ]
After watching HSP, I lump Negreanu in with the average NL50 player on Stars. [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

lol, yep

Re: Negreanu lumps Raymer w/ Moneymaker & Gold
 

Dan N. has come off like a pretty immature and petty guy pretty much always.

Re: Negreanu lumps Raymer w/ Moneymaker & Gold
 

He's clearly just trying to get under Greg's skin because of the whole WPT lawsuit thing. It's clearly obvios that Greg can play at a world class level and could wipe up the floors with the others. Daniel knows he can play.

Re: Negreanu lumps Raymer w/ Moneymaker & Gold
 

From his forum:

"Joe is a good player. The best WSOP champ since Carlos Mortensen, and I don't think it's close. Moneymaker is a PlayBoy now, Raymer is too wild and is prone the Matusow blow up, and Jamie bluffs too much and would get hurt against good players. Joe, on the other hand, is from the same school I'm from, the school of small ball. Other players using a similar approach include:

Phil Ivey
Gus Hansen
Erick Lindgren
Michael Mizrachi
Nam Le
Tuan Le
Phil Hellmuth

Those players that get it all in with 66 pre-flop too often:

Greg Raymer
Chris Ferguson
Howard Lederer
Andy Bloch
Phil Gordon
Phil Laak
Erik Seidel

The school that I went to will allow you to win more consistently in WPT events. The other approach is very good for less skillful events like the $1500 buy in events at the WSOP. Jamie Gold actually went to our school too, but does a few things differently.


It is simply not a coincidence that the players who do well on the WPT take the small ball approach. The other approach is far too kamikaze to win consistently as they get their money in bad far too often for very large amounts. You can suckout sometimes, but if you routinely play large pots in coin flip situations you can't get there too often. In five seasons on the WPT, if you compare this small list to each other you'd see a significant difference in success."


http://www.fullcontactpoker.com/poker-fo...t&p=1603498

Re: Negreanu lumps Raymer w/ Moneymaker & Gold
 

[ QUOTE ]
Dan N. has come off like a pretty immature and petty guy pretty much always.

[/ QUOTE ]

And homoerotic/metrosexual. Not that there is anything wrong with that.

Re: Negreanu lumps Raymer w/ Moneymaker & Gold
 

Forget about supporting or disagreeing with any of these points, it's ridiculous that he uses the "get it all in with 66 pre-flop too often" category and puts Mizrachi in the other category. Didn't he bust out of the WSOP ME and WPT Championship in the same year with 66 vs. QQ?

Not an indictment of Mizarchi of course, but it's an error so egregious that it lets you know how well thought out his arguments truly are.

Re: Negreanu lumps Raymer w/ Moneymaker & Gold
 

When I think Tuan Le, I don't think small ball. More like aggro-tard.

But I suck at poker.

Re: Negreanu lumps Raymer w/ Moneymaker & Gold
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Obviously Raymer shouldn't be lumped in with the other two...hence the point of posting it. Why would Daniel say that?

[/ QUOTE ]

Jealousy is my guess

[/ QUOTE ]
same here, i did think raymer has backed up his WSOP win with some nice showings since...

[/ QUOTE ]

Nice showings, yes, but no finish better than 5th since the WSOPME win, and I'm guessing he plays a significant amount of tourneys.

I think to lump him in with Moneymaker and Gold is dumb, ( although CM DOES have a higher post-ME finish and prize than Raymer..), Raymers post-ME win performance pales in comparison to Hachem, and really, for someone who plays as many as he does, isn't really all that special a track record at all, I hate to say.

Re: Negreanu lumps Raymer w/ Moneymaker & Gold
 

basically he thinks the solid non gamblers on crazy stuff are lozas and danial n thinks everybody bluffs

Re: Negreanu lumps Raymer w/ Moneymaker & Gold
 

How many does Raymer play?
He doesn't play any WPT events.

I thought he was only playing a handful per yr and spending more time with his family.

Re: Negreanu lumps Raymer w/ Moneymaker & Gold
 

Theres a topic started on his forums about this thread asking him to clarify what he meant by the article.

http://www.fullcontactpoker.com/poke...howtopic=84176

Re: Negreanu lumps Raymer w/ Moneymaker & Gold
 

[ QUOTE ]
Nice showings, yes, but no finish better than 5th since the WSOPME win, and I'm guessing he plays a significant amount of tourneys.

[/ QUOTE ]
He did get 2nd in the Stars Million for what that's worth. But obviously it was rigged for him, etc

Re: Negreanu lumps Raymer w/ Moneymaker & Gold
 

[ QUOTE ]
Theres a topic started on his forums about this thread asking him to clarify what he meant by the article.

http://www.fullcontactpoker.com/poke...howtopic=84176

[/ QUOTE ]

That post in his forums says the DN hate has started already. I honestly don't think that's fair. I only posted this because I thought his quote seemed like more of a shot at Raymer than a praise of Joe. That post also says DN wrote the article, which is false.

Re: Negreanu lumps Raymer w/ Moneymaker & Gold
 

Expert stuff right here. Let's call 120 pre w/ 8 high to win 500 more on the flop.

Rolgues Rodriguez Eliminated 24th ($50,745)
Joe Hachem limps in, Mats Rahmn limps and Rolgues Rodriquez raises $100,000 more. Both players call and the flop comes 6s4s2s. Rodriquez moves all in for just over $500,000 and Hachem moves all in on top. Rahmn folds and Rodriquez turns over AdAh. However, Hachem flips over 8s7s for a flush. The turn is the Jh and the river comes the 4c. Rodriquez is eliminated from the tournament and Hachem increases his stack to around $2,600,000 chips.

Re: Negreanu lumps Raymer w/ Moneymaker & Gold
 

I don't know DN personally or anything, but he does strike me as the sort of dude who involves himself in "poker community" pettiness. That, and he's obviously the "Big Friendly [censored] With A Big Grin" type'a guy.

Great player, though.

Re: Negreanu lumps Raymer w/ Moneymaker & Gold
 

[ QUOTE ]
Those players that get it all in with 66 pre-flop too often:

Greg Raymer
Chris Ferguson
Howard Lederer
Andy Bloch
Phil Gordon
Phil Laak
Erik Seidel

[/ QUOTE ]

Based on this list, I'd say his motives are pretty transparent.

Re: Negreanu lumps Raymer w/ Moneymaker & Gold
 

Hachem is a complete class act

Re: Negreanu lumps Raymer w/ Moneymaker & Gold
 

doesn't seidel have like 8 bracelets? well thought out list DN

Re: Negreanu lumps Raymer w/ Moneymaker & Gold
 

[ QUOTE ]
Hachem is a complete class act

[/ QUOTE ]

Irony?

Re: Negreanu lumps Raymer w/ Moneymaker & Gold
 

[ QUOTE ]
From his forum:

"Joe is a good player. The best WSOP champ since Carlos Mortensen, and I don't think it's close. Moneymaker is a PlayBoy now, Raymer is too wild and is prone the Matusow blow up, and Jamie bluffs too much and would get hurt against good players. Joe, on the other hand, is from the same school I'm from, the school of small ball. Other players using a similar approach include:

Phil Ivey
Gus Hansen
Erick Lindgren
Michael Mizrachi
Nam Le
Tuan Le
Phil Hellmuth

Those players that get it all in with 66 pre-flop too often:

Greg Raymer
Chris Ferguson
Howard Lederer
Andy Bloch
Phil Gordon
Phil Laak
Erik Seidel

The school that I went to will allow you to win more consistently in WPT events. The other approach is very good for less skillful events like the $1500 buy in events at the WSOP. Jamie Gold actually went to our school too, but does a few things differently.


It is simply not a coincidence that the players who do well on the WPT take the small ball approach. The other approach is far too kamikaze to win consistently as they get their money in bad far too often for very large amounts. You can suckout sometimes, but if you routinely play large pots in coin flip situations you can't get there too often. In five seasons on the WPT, if you compare this small list to each other you'd see a significant difference in success."


http://www.fullcontactpoker.com/poker-fo...t&p=1603498

[/ QUOTE ]

What a clueless clown. Tuan Le is the ultimate aggro/maniac with no consideration/care (I won't say no understanding because I'm sure he does understand but choses to play his style) for preflop equity values. He is the type of player who will put in 40% of his stack preflop with QT .. cash game or tourney.

LOL "small ball". I hate all these terms that get created that apparently only apply to live players/TV-pro's. Daniel N looked like a huge donk in HSP and frankly I think he'd get smoked playing 100/200+ NL on FTP.

Further, isn't there a post from the other day by Good2Cu from the 100/200 or 200/400 FTP NL game that Gus raised, someone 3 bet, Good2Cu shoved over the 3-bet (with KK) and Gus called off ~2:1 with A7o?

LO [censored]L "small ball"

Re: Negreanu lumps Raymer w/ Moneymaker & Gold
 

daniel needs to keep his mouth shut for once in his life. Daniel, you are a poker player, and the whole world does not care of your opinion on every matter. We don't need to know who you think is good, who you think is a donk and who you have high school like quibbles with. Enough Daniel!

Re: Negreanu lumps Raymer w/ Moneymaker & Gold
 

Here is some of Gus "smallball" Hansen. Smallball apparently is sitting with 32 BB's on a max 100 BB buying table and re-raising 12 of them with A7o. I thought pro's liked to play "deep stacks" so they could "outplay clueless internet players on later betting rounds".

Full Tilt Poker Game #1517838336: Table Canfield (6 max) - $200/$400 - No Limit Hold'em - 9:45:53 ET - 2007/01/02
Seat 1: noataima ($45,794)
Seat 2: good2cu ($40,181)
Seat 3: LFISGD ($5,398)
Seat 6: Gus Hansen ($13,392.50)
noataima posts the small blind of $200
good2cu posts the big blind of $400
The button is in seat #6
*** HOLE CARDS ***
LFISGD raises to $1,400
Gus Hansen has 15 seconds left to act
Gus Hansen raises to $4,800
noataima folds
good2cu raises to $40,181, and is all in
LFISGD folds
Gus Hansen has 15 seconds left to act
LFISGD: anyone want alittle ub chips for here?
Gus Hansen calls $8,592.50, and is all in
good2cu shows [Ks Kc]
Gus Hansen shows [Ad 7d]
Uncalled bet of $26,788.50 returned to good2cu
*** FLOP *** [5h 6s 5d]
*** TURN *** [5h 6s 5d] [Ac]
*** RIVER *** [5h 6s 5d Ac] [9s]
good2cu shows two pair, Kings and Fives
Gus Hansen shows two pair, Aces and Fives
Gus Hansen wins the pot ($28,383) with two pair, Aces and Fives
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $28,385 | Rake $2
Board: [5h 6s 5d Ac 9s]
Seat 1: noataima (small blind) folded before the Flop
Seat 2: good2cu (big blind) showed [Ks Kc] and lost with two pair, Kings and Fives
Seat 3: LFISGD folded before the Flop
Seat 6: Gus Hansen (button) showed [Ad 7d] and won ($28,383) with two pair, Aces and Fives