commerce 20/40NL
 

i'm about to crash out so i won't be around to provide any additional info but i thought you guys might like to toss this hand around.

villian is stuck ALOT in the game, prolly over 40K, calls too much in general but did get pretty coolered in a couple of spots.
overall read is he's not retarded but def. calls too much.

he doubled me up earlier also when i was somewhat short so he seems anxious to play every pot i'm in.

my image is somewhat laggy, although i haven't been mixing it up too much at the table because we are playing pretty much showdown poker and there are plenty of table sherrifs to keep people honest.

ok so i have ~7500 and villian has me way covered.

i open for 200 in LP with Q [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 9 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] and he makes it 500 on the button, i call.

2 to the flop (1060)
A [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 8 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] J [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

i check he bets 700 i call.

turn (2460)
10 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

i check he thinks for a bit then bets 900 i raise 2000 more he thinks for a bit then calls.

river (8260)
A [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

i have 4280 left...whats your play?

Re: commerce 20/40NL
 

Push. He has a ace, and will call ya, no matter if he got Fh or not.
I f he had 2Pair or Sei, i think he pushes Turn.

Re: commerce 20/40NL
 

If you check I suspect he checks behind more hands that you beat than hands that will call if you shove. Uhhh, if that makes sense, I'm saying you should shove because he will still call with a lot of aces, and he will also check behind w/ a lot of those aces if you check. So I really think that unless he is passive enough to check fold the river (which I really doubt he is for a half pot bet) then you should shove it yourself.

Re: commerce 20/40NL
 

WOW first RBK hand that i ever found uninteresting.

Re: commerce 20/40NL
 

The key is that you have to call given your stack size relative to the pot if you check and he sets you in. So if you do check and let him check behind with an A that would have called and he then only bets when he has you beat, you have put yourself on the wrong side of a negative freeroll.

So shove and do it quick to make him think you are bluffing a missed draw or counterfeited 2 pair.

Re: commerce 20/40NL
 

Yeah, since you will call his bet anyway (?), better just bet yourself and get value out of his Ax or whatever. This would be a much tougher spot if you had a bit more left. Of course with a bigger stack you would have probably c/r a bit more on turn..

Re: commerce 20/40NL
 

rbk-

my opinions: on the river, stick it in.

BUT, i think shoving the turn is much better against the opponent u described. more likely to get the money from 2pairs, sets, pair and draw type hands imo.

Re: commerce 20/40NL
 

What is up with his really weak $900 turn bet? What do you read it for?

In most instances, I would simply go all-in on the turn. But if the $900 turn bet is read as weak, I put him on an AQ/AK type of hand. In this case, he might think he's inducing a check-raise steal from a lag and I like this $2000 more amount...leaving a good chunk more to "hang yourself" with at the river. He probably couldn't handle an all-in check-raise with a read that he is weak.

Based on how this played, I do not believe he has two pair or a set on the turn. Villian would probably push back due to the draw-heavy nature of this board. If he has KQ, you were already screwed. Chalk one cooler back in his column.

River is fairly simple. I'd push expecting a call from any A. The river A is the nail in the coffin for him. You simply cannot give him a chance to check behind any kind of A. I do not believe there is nearly enough value in inducing any sort of improbable river bluff. You didn't really mention too much about his aggressiveness. You said he "calls too much". Give him that final chance.

Garland

Re: commerce 20/40NL
 

Bet $2500 on the river.

-D.J.

Re: commerce 20/40NL
 

[ QUOTE ]
Bet $2500 on the river.

-D.J.

[/ QUOTE ]

1/4 of the pot and leave yourself the same amount behind? heh. All in.

Re: commerce 20/40NL
 

I don't think the all-in bet will get called, $2500 should get called by any Ace.

-D.J.

Re: commerce 20/40NL
 

so you all dont think he is valuebetting AK/AQ that he 3bet preflop here like, 95% of the time if checked to when we have 100 bb's left in a 200+ bb pot?

Re: commerce 20/40NL
 

hi rbk,

I don't completely understand the question....there are two separate issues here:

1) are you asking whether you should be willing to fold here?...if that is the question, my answer is absolutely not....getting 3-to-1 on the river I think you have enough of a price to call based on the number of non-fullhouse hands he could have....and also, if you legitimately think you have a tough decision here, then you should've raised more on the turn...

2) or are you saying you ARE committed to your hand, but are asking what the best way to proceed is?......well, if you are committed to calling a bet 100 percent of the time, then you are better of betting yourself if there are worse hands that he'll check behind some percentage of the time (Ax, etc.).....

the only way check-calling is better is if somehow it is more likely for him to have a missed draw that he'll bluff with rather than a worse made hand.....that doesn't appear to be the case here.....

-S

EDIT: perhaps there is one more subset of cases that could make check-calling more viable, and that is if your opponent has a made hand that he'd fold to a bet by you, but value bet himself if you check.....that type of thinking IMO is really only applicable in very rare situations (usually in super-meta-game spots against good thinking players who are very familiar with you and vice versa)....I don't think that applies here given your descriptions.....I don't think villain folds Ax often enough, relative to the number of times he'll check it vs. value bet it.....

Re: commerce 20/40NL
 

"EDIT: perhaps there is one more subset of cases that could make check-calling more viable, and that is if your opponent has a made hand that he'd fold to a bet by you, but value bet himself if you check.....that type of thinking IMO is really only applicable in very rare situations (usually in super-meta-game spots against good thinking players who are very familiar with you and vice versa)....I don't think that applies here given your descriptions.....I don't think villain folds Ax often enough, relative to the number of times he'll check it vs. value bet it....."

I think most of us would agree that the VAST majority of opponents will call more than they will bet here, yes?

Re: commerce 20/40NL
 

Ansky,

Coltrane basically took three times as many words to say what I did earlier in this thread among others. No wonder he and Matt and Ed are having to make their project 2 volumes now.

Re: commerce 20/40NL
 

[ QUOTE ]
Ansky,

Coltrane basically took three times as many words to say what I did earlier in this thread among others. No wonder he and Matt and Ed are having to make their project 2 volumes now.

[/ QUOTE ]

lol.... [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: commerce 20/40NL
 

[ QUOTE ]
Ansky,

Coltrane basically took three times as many words to say what I did earlier in this thread among others. No wonder he and Matt and Ed are having to make their project 2 volumes now.

[/ QUOTE ]

First time anyone's said the same thing as you with more words??

Re: commerce 20/40NL
 

Piiop,

That's why it's especially notable.

Re: commerce 20/40NL
 

[ QUOTE ]
Ansky,

Coltrane basically took three times as many words to say what I did earlier in this thread among others. No wonder he and Matt and Ed are having to make their project 2 volumes now.

[/ QUOTE ]

BluffTHIS!,

I beleive I said the same thing as well.

Edit: Before you did.

Re: commerce 20/40NL
 

Anksy,

You said half of it, and left out the 1/2 about being committed to call if he bet after you checked. However I'm sure you thought that was implied and didn't state same, in which case I was wordier than you, as well as repetitive. However that makes Coltrane all the more repetitive and def more wordy [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img].

Re: commerce 20/40NL
 

Indeed.

Re: commerce 20/40NL
 

Easy push, but I would have made it like 3.8k instead of 2.9 on the turn.

Re: commerce 20/40NL
 

why not just push the turn then?

Re: commerce 20/40NL
 

bluffthis,

the river is not a negative freeroll if you are check-calling.

[ QUOTE ]
he then only bets when he has you beat

[/ QUOTE ]

it is a good thing this is not the case!

Re: commerce 20/40NL
 

obv the crux of this hand is how often he is valuebetting AK when he is stucko and has half the pot left on the river.

Re: commerce 20/40NL
 

TWP, I guess the obvious answer would be that when you have someone who calls too much, you might risk him folding a lot more hands if he has to call 6300 more than if he has to call 2.8k more.

Re: commerce 20/40NL
 

heh,
yeah i realized this hand wasn't that interesting, however the reason i posted it is i've been hearing alot of
"there is no reason to bet as no worse hand calls you"
and then after i pushed the river a couple of people at the table commented that they couldn't believe i wasn't afraid of the boat.

so i pushed the river and he called me with KK.
i really thought he had AK and so my real question in the hand was whether it would be better to check this river because i felt so sure he had AK and wasn't sure if he'd call a push more often then he'd bet if checked too.

obviously after seeing him call with KK there it was a moot point because he clearly had some money to donate for tax purposes.

anyways sorry for the boring hand...no excuses other then i haven't played that much live lately so i don't have alot to pick from and i was really tired so my judgement of what would be interesting was obviously off.

Re: commerce 20/40NL
 

from discussion of hand w fsu:
[ QUOTE ]

chance he makes a hero call w/ KK/QQ


[/ QUOTE ]

Re: commerce 20/40NL
 

[ QUOTE ]
bluffthis,

the river is not a negative freeroll if you are check-calling.

[ QUOTE ]
he then only bets when he has you beat

[/ QUOTE ]

it is a good thing this is not the case!

[/ QUOTE ]


chud,

That was only 1/2 of what I said. Reread or read sober.

Re: commerce 20/40NL
 

bluffthis,

i know what you meant of course. i was just highlighting that part. if he is checking behind hands that would call our bet and lose, and only betting when we are behind, obv you are right.

i am just pointing out that i believe that to be irrelevant in this hand.

Re: commerce 20/40NL
 

lol at your image.

Re: commerce 20/40NL
 

[ QUOTE ]
lol at your image.

[/ QUOTE ]

how's that?

Re: commerce 20/40NL
 

[ QUOTE ]
how's that?

[/ QUOTE ]

um, that he paid you off w KK. it's a good thing.

Re: commerce 20/40NL
 

ahhh yeah [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

edit: although a little while later he called a 5K raise on turn and then 15K on river on a paired board and couldn't beat the nut flush, so i think he just didn't have a fold button.

Re: commerce 20/40NL
 

I haven't been to commerce in two weeks, I'm glad to hear things haven't changed. Jonas, has the 50/100 or 100/200 been going lately?

Re: commerce 20/40NL
 

i don't know i haven't been much lately either.

Re: commerce 20/40NL
 

rbk,

This may be overly personal, and you can either ignore the question or PM me if you wouldn't mind, but given the stakes and the stacks players are sitting with at 20/40- 50/100 (which it seems are the stakes you play), what do you think is an attainable hourly rate for these live NL games? It never really will matter in my case since I wouldn't become a live pro, but I am curious as to how it compares to online pros hourly rates.

Re: commerce 20/40NL
 

This has been addressed several times, both here and in B&M. If you're good with search or know someone who is you can find a lot of info on it. It may be in archives by now but I distinctly remember entire threads on this topic as well as several posts on this topic mixed into other threads. I'm pretty sure J.A.Sucker made a post in at least one of those threads, if that helps with the search...

Re: commerce 20/40NL
 

k ty i hadnt realized it had been discussed so much.

i shall take a look.

Re: commerce 20/40NL
 

Two threads that might interest you:

8 months ago
Few years back