75 Spot vs. Paired Door Card
 

This happened a couple weeks ago in an Atlantic City 75 stud game. We were seven handed and four players (no cards higher than a jack) limped - this in itself is pretty unusual. I'm next with the (4x 5x) 3x and toss a quarter in. There are no deuces or sixes out. A loose player with a king up calls behind me.

On 4th street, the loose player pairs kings. He bets the full 150 and everyone folds to me; meanwhile, I catch a six and no one catches a deuce or seven.

4th Street

Villain: (x,x) K K

Hero: (4x 5x) 3x 6x

There is $430 in the pot after he bets, offering me immediate odds of just under 3-1. Also assume that this player would NEVER (or at least almost never) limp with kings on third street even though it would probably be correct to do so with the way the action presented itself. So his likely hands are: kings up with a small pocket pair or dry kings with middle side cards. This player also has been known to make "bad" late street folds because he "knows" he is beat. What is the best way to proceed with this hand?

Thanks,
Jeff

Re: 75 Spot vs. Paired Door Card
 

My belief and immediate reaction is to fold this hand and not pursue this one any further.

There is still the possibility of his having 3 kings, becasue as you said, it is more correct for him to flat call than raise it on 3rd with so many limpers. If he has 2 pair instead, you are essentially only drawing to your straight with pairing or two pairing along the way of no help to you. It is always worthwhile to have backup alternatives to the hand you are trying to make in case you dont make it and you are not in that position, unless you also had 3 suited going on also. The only hand that you could be happy with his having enabling you to chase is the kings with 2 other high cards. Even the kings with 3 suited would not be what you are looking for.

So, given that you are heads up, I can not see that it is correct to chase. I would fold.

Re: 75 Spot vs. Paired Door Card
 

I usually fold in this situation since my hand will be face-up if I call, and there is always the chance that he actually has trips.

Re: 75 Spot vs. Paired Door Card
 

I toss this dog on third street. On fourth, I still don't like your hand that much. You're in decent shape against bare Kings, but against two pair, you're not in very good shape. Against trips, you're in trouble, and I suspect that there is at least some chance that he has them. If he's really loose, I think you can continue, but folding still can't be that bad. Against a reasonable opponent, I think that this is a fold.

Re: 75 Spot vs. Paired Door Card
 

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I usually fold in this situation since my hand will be face-up if I call, and there is always the chance that he actually has trips.

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I agree.

Little ahead, way behind..

I think his hand plays better on later streets to.

Re: 75 Spot vs. Paired Door Card
 

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I usually fold in this situation since my hand will be face-up if I call

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This I don't really agree with since I think he'll be more likely to fear rolled up trips or turned trip sixes based on how this game plays and how I'm perceived.

Jeff

Re: 75 Spot vs. Paired Door Card
 

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I toss this dog on third street.

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Considering the number of opponents in the pot I dont view this hand as a dog. And underdog yes, but not a dog. I think calling on 3rd is fine.

Unless the opponent is totally retarded 4th is a toss. Jeff will never see his needed implied odds if he hits perfect on 5th street.

TT [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

Re: 75 Spot vs. Paired Door Card
 

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Unless the opponent is totally retarded

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While I wouldn't use this same language, this opponent likes to give a lot of action in certain situations he shouldn't and he likes to sometimes "realize he's beat" in situations where he should pay off.

Jeff

Re: 75 Spot vs. Paired Door Card
 

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Unless the opponent is totally retarded

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While I wouldn't use this same language, this opponent likes to give a lot of action in certain situations he shouldn't and he likes to sometimes "realize he's beat" in situations where he should pay off.

Jeff

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I don't qualify this player as totally retarded, he has a case of lowlimititis for a guy who is playing 75/150.

TT [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

Re: 75 Spot vs. Paired Door Card
 

I think this forum's pendulum has swung back to weak-tight. Easy call, and I can see some merit to raising or planning to do so later.

Re: 75 Spot vs. Paired Door Card
 

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I usually fold in this situation since my hand will be face-up if I call

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This I don't really agree with since I think he'll be more likely to fear rolled up trips or turned trip sixes based on how this game plays and how I'm perceived.

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Since you have small cards, there's only one way for you to win this hand at showdown, and making a two-pair or running trips may actually cost you money. If you do make the straight, you're probably only going to win the minimum, or lose an extra bet if he fills. With so little advantage in the money when you win, and a potential extra bet lost if you lose, this doesn't seem like a hand you want to show down.

If you think you can freak him out and make him fold (as implied by your comment), you could raise him back on Four and then semi-bluff Five or take the free card. The problem with raising for a free card is that it doesn't save you any money, since it's a double bet to you already, so you'd be raising to scare him, and probably still need to catch a scare card.

If you had anything else going for you, like a three-flush, you would have some deception built-into your hand, and you'd have more than one way to win at showdown. As it stands, if you're gong to play, I think you have to be aggressive enough to fold him (since you think he might fold), so you don't have to bank on your ship coming in eventually. If you make a straight, I suppose you could win that way too.

For myself, I fold Third and fold Fourth.

Re: 75 Spot vs. Paired Door Card
 

I assume this is stud hi???

If so, I would probably lean toward not chasing & fold since he paired his door card. But, I could also make an argument for peeling one off & see if I catch.

Re: 75 Spot vs. Paired Door Card
 

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I would probably lean toward not chasing & fold since he paired his door card. But, I could also make an argument for peeling one off & see if I catch.

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Even though you are not being laid the implied odds to improve? Even though the hero has to catch perfect, or pair twice to improve past the villain's hand (and this assumes the villain doesn't have a K in the hole, which is a fairly safe assumption)?

TT [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

Re: 75 Spot vs. Paired Door Card
 

Ok, maybe I'm not going insane then. [img]/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img] Happy New Year folks - be safe and kick ass in 2007.

Jeff

Re: 75 Spot vs. Paired Door Card
 

If you're board was 3/4 4/5 5/6 then I could see continuing since you would have more room to get a fold later on. With 3/6 it's too difficult to do that unless you hit another 3 or 6. Also I just don't see you getting many folds out of Kings Up+ hands regardless of how your board develops. I'd fold. I think continuing is fine if you had a bigger pot, stronger board, or if he had something you could get a fold out of easier. Folding here isn't going to hurt your image either.

Re: 75 Spot vs. Paired Door Card
 

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This player also has been known to make "bad" late street folds because he "knows" he is beat.

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I think this works against you here because most of the time you get a fold out of him is when you make your straight. If you have some plan to get him off the hand otherwise maybe I'm wrong, but I don't really see one. If you were showing two suited it would help.

As I reply to this your post count is 6543, which I find amusing.

Re: 75 Spot vs. Paired Door Card
 

With 36 on board, he's got a better chance of getting paid off when he hits his straight than he would if his board were more coordinated.

Re: 75 Spot vs. Paired Door Card
 

Are you suited at all?

Re: 75 Spot vs. Paired Door Card
 

looks to me like you are going to be getting around 2 to 1 one odds on this live hand winning.

Re: 75 Spot vs. Paired Door Card
 

I don't think this hand is all about implied odds. I think many opponents in this game (including this one) will assume I have a VERY strong hand to call (or raise) on 4th street such as trips. There have been a few instances (one of which I posted quite awhile ago) where I made a float play with next to nothing vs a paired door card so I could induce a fold later. I think the combination of possibly inducing a fold without improving and the fact that (if he has kings up) he will pay off make continuing ok (that is, either calling with intent to raise later or raising immediately in certain spots). I had a strong read that this person did not start with a pair of kings - I guess you had to be there, but I pretty much woulda bet several stacks of green he didn't.

If he has kings only, it's very likely he will check-fold fifth street or (in some cases, bet-fold fifth or check-call 5th, check-fold sixth - particularly if I pair my board or something scary). That was my perspective at the table anyway.

Jeff

Re: 75 Spot vs. Paired Door Card
 

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I assume this is stud hi???


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Yup.

Jeff

Re: 75 Spot vs. Paired Door Card
 

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I think this works against you here because most of the time you get a fold out of him is when you make your straight.

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Disagree - if he has a hand like kings up, my catching a deuce or seven will not induce a fold from him. He probably will not give me in particular 345.

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If you have some plan to get him off the hand otherwise maybe I'm wrong, but I don't really see one.

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See my post above for some thoughts on this - maybe this hand is too opponent specific, I dunno.

Jeff

Re: 75 Spot vs. Paired Door Card
 

Not that I remember.

Jeff

Re: 75 Spot vs. Paired Door Card
 

Not sure I follow - - Seven handed game, $15 ante per player ($105). Seven people put the quarter in on third ($175). Then KK bets $150 for a $430 pot, giving me just under 3-1. Also, I didn't believe I would necessarily have to complete my hand to win because I was almost positive this individual had weak holecard (or perhaps a pair...but after the action on third, he could have MANY MANY holdings). I just don't give him trips because he would pretty much raise 100 percent of the time. This is obviously not true for everyone in the game, but this is my read on this player.

Jeff

Re: 75 Spot vs. Paired Door Card
 

How live were the 7's? Of the four players who limped ahead of you, did one have a 7 up and might they just have called with split 7's there? That would be the key for me.

I haven't run the numbers, but my gut says I'd have to agree with Bart. If I thought 7's were live, I'd call 4th, 5th and 6th. You're drawing to a hand that beats trips and conceding the pot to what may just be a pair of K's there is making the game easy for that guy.

Re: 75 Spot vs. Paired Door Card
 

Suited makes it an easier call, but I really think there are merits to calling or even raising here. (I'd really like calling and raising fifth if we think he'll take another stab) because as you said, when a solid player calls a double bet on fourth, it is almost CERTAINLY with a very strong hand. If this is a type of player who prides himself in making "good" laydowns and you have decent control over him, this is prob a good spot to try and push him off a hand. Also let's not forget if you hit your hand, it will be tough to put you on a straight as most ppl are assuming trips here, maybe two pair. Calling or raising fifth also allows you to most likely buy the pot if your board pairs on fifth as well.

Re: 75 Spot vs. Paired Door Card
 

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Not sure I follow - - Seven handed game, $15 ante per player ($105). Seven people put the quarter in on third ($175). Then KK bets $150 for a $430 pot, giving me just under 3-1. Also, I didn't believe I would necessarily have to complete my hand to win because I was almost positive this individual had weak holecard (or perhaps a pair...but after the action on third, he could have MANY MANY holdings). I just don't give him trips because he would pretty much raise 100 percent of the time. This is obviously not true for everyone in the game, but this is my read on this player.

Jeff

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Jeff
As someone already said, the liveness of your straight cards is the most important key.

I have another test I sometimes use in this situation. Will you raise this particular player if you make your straight on say sixth street? If yes (and regardless of how live his board cards are) then go ahead and play it down.

Hello,Jeffage! I generally agree with Andy--with some exceptions--,
 

With ante between 10% and 15% of the small bet with a live 2 flush,I would see 4th Str. and continue on with any improvement on 4th. But remember,this is a VERY MARGINAL AND VULNERABLE PLAY. [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img] If U confront a paired doorcard with ur 4-Str.,ur Oppo. will pound u with his mallet ALL THE WAY to the later Strs. while U are living with HOPE of completing UR Str. [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img] Even if U complete ur hand,U might very well be facing a crowded house on a later Str. [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]
U will usually feel like a dying c o c k roach after ur head is bashed in with ur Oppo.'s mallet. [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]
If the ante is 15% or greater,I would play the small rainbow
3-Str. The reason is that it is important to frequently struggle more to recoup lost antes. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]
If the ante is 10% or smaller,I would definitely dump 3rd Str. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]
With this small ante,one does not need to recoup much antes
to remain viable in the game.
SittingBull

RESULTS
 

Thanks for the responses - I just wanted to post the results before I go to bed (not that they matter really, but I'll put them up for the curious).

I called on 4th street. On 5th, my opponent caught three kings on board and I bricked. He bet and I folded.

Jeff

Re: RESULTS
 

Good lay-down.

I'm still tossing 345 for the bring-in.

Re: 75 Spot vs. Paired Door Card
 

My open ender was completely live on 4th - it's possible the bring in was a deuce but I don't think it was.

Jeff

Re: 75 Spot vs. Paired Door Card
 

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I don't think this hand is all about implied odds.
Jeff

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If you call your not getting the right odds to continue, your on a wing and a prayer while your opponent has a shown made hand. Therefore how can you not consider implied odds? The only odds you should be considering are what you may make later in the hand should you improve, and if the additional bets yo make are equal to the odds you need to improve. I think Ray Z nailed it in much fewer words than I did, but we are thinking the same. Even if you only make 2 pair rather than the straight you might be a dog to a bigger 2 pair, dump it.

TT [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

Re: RESULTS
 

good laydown obviously. I think my plan against this opponent would probably be to call fourth and seriously consider raising fifth if he bricks and you catch 3, 6 or A. If you make your straight, I'd probably let him keep leading and wait to raise until the river.

Playing this hand strongly depends on two things: ALL your cards are live and there's virtually NO chance he has trips. Given those, you are only about a 1.5-1 dog to make your straight by river and you don't have to pay off if you don't.

Re: 75 Spot vs. Paired Door Card
 

My reading of Ray's post suggests that Jeff play on.

Re: 75 Spot vs. Paired Door Card
 

alright
if he has just kings you are around even money

if he has kings up around 3to2 dog

three kings alittle over two to one dog

you are getting about two to one odds for what you put in to see the river as opposed to what you figure to win if you hit your straight or trips which may or not be good.

plus you act last and may get to win an extra bet or possibly run him off if you pair your board

looks to me like you see the river card in this hand

am i missing something or are you guys?