3-street playalong with infinity
 

okay guys, interesting one (I hope), maybe dealing with math (yay) and other stuff. pretty tight 2/4 game online. villain in the hand is 23/11/2 over 1000 hands, fairly solid but chases sometimes. I am in sb with 88.

first question: villain raises utg, all fold to me. I .... ?

Re: 3-street playalong with infinity
 

ask for cards
Nice edit. Fix he converter so we can see what's going on.

Re: 3-street playalong with infinity
 

Read carefully and gain wisdom [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[ QUOTE ]
I am in sb with 88

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I fold. With just BB still having to act, you don't really have the implied odds when you hit your set. But my crystal ball tells me you called... [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

Re: 3-street playalong with infinity
 

I make it THREE BETSSS and am ready to gamboool.

Re: 3-street playalong with infinity
 

I fold. 88 isn't doing good against someone who will probably open UTG with something like 99+,AJo+,ATs+,KQo,KQs. It's a coinflip against a large part of his range and you have bad reverse implied odds against 99+ on lowcard flops.

Re: 3-street playalong with infinity
 

I fold, I don't want to being play 88 against an UTG raiser.

Re: 3-street playalong with infinity
 

Fold, and miss out on the $400 High Hand Jackpot and the $400 Quads Jackpot when you would have flopped quads.

Sorry, but that actually happened to me and I'm still bitter.

Re: 3-street playalong with infinity
 

I'd fold. The best you can be is a coin-flip and the worse you can be is dominated. The pot is small and he has position. Move on and wait for a better opportunity (unless there are bonus jackpots, then call and take the flop [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img])

Re: 3-street playalong with infinity
 

three town, let's make it interesting.

BTW, it's been almost 4 hours, do you think we could move this playalong along?

Re: 3-street playalong with infinity
 

LOL, fold.

I suspect BBB gets angry and four-bets preflop with a menacing grin. Then apologizes for misreading the table and pulls one bet back. Still shooting daggers at UTG.

Let's go already ....

Re: 3-street playalong with infinity
 

It is possible that everyone who has responded in this thread is incorrect. [img]/images/graemlins/shocked.gif[/img]

Possible

Who is in the BB?

Re: 3-street playalong with infinity
 

[ QUOTE ]
It is possible that everyone who has responded in this thread is incorrect. [img]/images/graemlins/shocked.gif[/img]

Possible

IMO it either goes Fold > Call > 3-bet or Call > Fold > 3-bet. Especially against someone who chases. Weak-tight and now you can 3-bet more freely. It also somewhat depends on the BB though it shouldn't matter unless he is either super aggressive or loose PF-extra tight/passive post. If the BB is loose and really bad I can see no way how calling isn't correct here.

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I understand what you are saying about 3-betting a weak tight.

Can you go a little deeper with the call > fold > 3-bet?

Re: 3-street playalong with infinity
 

[ QUOTE ]
first question: villain raises utg, all fold to me. I .... ?

[/ QUOTE ]

Zeroth question: How many players are at the table?

Re: 3-street playalong with infinity
 

...the action continues...

(no relevant reads on BB by the way)

what I was thinking at the time: I don't have a great math sense at all, but my gut feeling was that I was beating about half or a little more than half of his range, with a little dead money in the pot (the BB--not sure if that makes much of an equity difference in limit). On a lot of flops if he doesn't connect decently well I can take it down. Villain is fairly straightforward btw so I think the chance of him putting a big move on me postflop is very low. Plus I have a tight image and figured I'd put it to use.

hero 3bets, 1 fold, UTG calls.

flop 7 2 K rainbow

Hero bets, UTG calls.

turn 2

Hero bets, UTG raises.

What next? And comments/agreements/disagreements/maths/kittens regarding my thoughts?

Re: 3-street playalong with infinity
 

Aaron--it's a full-ring table, 10 players.

Re: 3-street playalong with infinity
 

Next...Hero kicks himself for 3 betting OOP instead of throwing his hand in the muck and waiting for a better situation.

With that, if BB is loose enough to call preflop, a call would be better than a raise and play for set value.

As it is, you are OOP in a hand that is at best a very slight favorite. You will likely lose a lot more bets on this when behind than you will win when you are ahead.

Re: 3-street playalong with infinity
 

Elementary turn check/fold

Re: 3-street playalong with infinity
 

[ QUOTE ]
Aaron--it's a full-ring table, 10 players.

[/ QUOTE ]

Muckity-muck-muck.

[ QUOTE ]
what I was thinking at the time: I don't have a great math sense at all, but my gut feeling was that I was beating about half or a little more than half of his range, with a little dead money in the pot (the BB--not sure if that makes much of an equity difference in limit).

[/ QUOTE ]

Let's put a little math to it. Give an 11 PFR the following UTG hand-raising range: AA-99, AK-AQ, KQs (72 hands = 5.4% PFR). You are 50-50 with this hand range.

To make you a little more than 50-50, we'll throw in the rest of the KQo hands to see how much it affects things (12 more hands, making you ahead of 57% of his hands).

Now consider how much you have to invest to win this pot.

1) 3-bet preflop: 2.5 SB
2) Flop bet: 1 SB
3) Turn bet: 2 SB (You said "On a lot of flops if he doesn't connect decently well I can take it down," but hands like AK will almost always peel one in position so you will sometimes have to bet again -- and you might get raised as you did here and will be forced to fold, which I hope you did)
Total = 3.5 or 5.5 SB

What do you win?

1) BB's money = 1 SB
2) UTG's preflop money = 3 SB
3) UTG's flop money = 1 SB (Sometimes, as discussed above)
Total = 4 SB or 5 SB

So you're getting roughly equal money on your play and the question becomes whether you win more than half the time. It might be possible, but I think it's going to be marginal at best, and devistating under reasonable situations. (For example, villain calls down with KK-JJ when just one overcard falls a decent percent of the time, which means you lose extra money in those spots. Sometimes AK misses the flop, peels, and draws out on the turn... A couple bets here and there and suddenly you're sunk.)

[ QUOTE ]
flop 7 2 K rainbow

Hero bets, UTG calls.

turn 2

Hero bets...

[/ QUOTE ]

Why are you betting the turn??

Re: 3-street playalong with infinity
 

This whole hand is spew, so hero 3-bets! Do you fold to cap though? [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

EDIT: How's this for my 300th post, huh?

Re: 3-street playalong with infinity
 

[ QUOTE ]
Elementary turn check/fold

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Shill, please expand a bit on this. I imagine there are a number of people (me included) who may benefit from it. thx

Re: 3-street playalong with infinity
 

*arrrgh c/f!!! Vite, vite!

Re: 3-street playalong with infinity
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Elementary turn check/fold

[/ QUOTE ]

Shill, please expand a bit on this. I imagine there are a number of people (me included) who may benefit from it. thx

[/ QUOTE ]

here's my take, won't compare to brads, but I think this is a classic wait for the turn to raise. I'm 3 betting this preflop cause I want to see what utg is going to do. if he caps, i'm likely to check/fold the flop, but with him just calling, I'm opening up his range. I think you can toss out AA-QQ, maybe half the AK hands. I'm looking for a medium strength raising hand now from utg. my guess is AQ KQ or 99-JJ. I am playing any raggy flop, or any flop without and A or a K. When he calls the flop bet, I'm pretty much thinking I'm behind. on the turn, I'm likely to bet/fold, but I don't think that's correct.

Now, put yourself in UTG's shoes. You raise with KQs utg, and SB 3 bet's. Hmmm, ok, I'll call. Flop somes K high and SB still likes his hand. Well, I'm not folding top pair just yet. The turn is a brick, time to find out where I stand and throw a raise in there. If SB makes it 3 on the turn, I may have to let top pair go......if only I had a read.

Re: 3-street playalong with infinity
 

I am getting out after the turn raise here. You are getting 7:1 on a turn call but only 4:1 effective odds on a calldown. I don't think you are good that much.

Re: 3-street playalong with infinity
 

hi guys, i folded to the turn raise as i figured i was soundly behind most of the time here. i guess it wasn't the greatest playalong ever but i thought it showed how getting too aggressive with a marginal hand can get me into hot water when a couple overcards flop. also, being in position is important [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

for those who say check the turn--i have a question--isn't checking the turn going to induce villain to bet no matter what he has then i have to fold?

thanks for the replies everyone!