Never played Stars, just how good are FPPs?
 

I'm looking for another site to play at, but refuse to play anywhere without rakeback. Thats why i've never played pokerstars.

I've seen a lot of posts about their FPPs, and it seems as though they can add up to something equivalent of rakeback once you hit supernova? I would play about 50k hands a month of 2-4 NL, how long would it take to achieve this "supernova" status?

And also, can anyone estimate the total "rakeback" given by Pokerstars? What i mean by that is,

Absolute is (including bonuses, rakeback, points) roughly 43%
FTP is 27%
Ultimate bet is roughly 40%
Pokerstars (fpps) = ?

I'm not really looking for a $$$ figure, i'm looking for a percent. If anyone can help, that would be great thanks.

ps - i already created this thread in the rakeback section but they said i'd get a better response here.

Re: Never played Stars, just how good are FPPs?
 

They used to say 27% equivalent at best.

UB and just about all the euro networks (Tribeca, B2B, etc) are better for bonuses/RB.

I don't play cash games at Stars so I've no idea how soft or otherwise they are.

Re: Never played Stars, just how good are FPPs?
 

i heard 30+% for nova

Re: Never played Stars, just how good are FPPs?
 

Whoever is saying 27% at best is WRONG.

It can be much higher than that depending on what you play.

I don't know how much it would be for 2/4 NL 6-max.

My rough guess would be in the 25-30% range at SN but without the data I really can't say.


You can compare for yourself using your numbers from other sites since that will be fairly close.

At SN you get 3.5 FPP's per hand that is raked $1.
You get 7 FPP's per hand that is raked $2 on 6-max. Or at $3 on full-ring.

FPP's are 1.6 cents each.


I imagine you would get to SN fairly quickly at 2/4 6-max.
You get 1 VPP per hand that is raked $1.
You get 2 VPP's per hand that is raked $2 on 6-max.
Or $3 on full-ring.
You need 100k VPP's for SN.

So I'm thinking at 50k hands a month that maybe it would be 30k-40k raked-hands. So I would think SN in 3 months would be possible.


Consider a hand that is raked $2 on a 6-max table when you are already SN.
You get 7 FPP's * 1.6 cents = 11.2 cents.

Your contribution would be 1/6 of $2 or $0.33.
So getting back about 11 cents would be about 33% rakeback for that hand.


You still only get 11.2 cents for a hand that is raked at $3 on 6-max.

This should be enough to get you started.
Look through your numbers to figure it out.


I also believe that somebody else made more accurate calculations for some of the NL levels.

Re: Never played Stars, just how good are FPPs?
 

Let's see if I can get my math right. I've been playing mostly $1/$2 FR LHE. Here are my stats since November 1:

Hands played: 26,709

VPPs: 10,558 (39.5%)

FPPs and value:
at Platinum (2.5): 26,395 * $0.016 = $422.32
at SN (3.5): 36,953 * $0.016 - $591.25

MGR (per Game Notes tab): $959.57

Rakeback equivalent:
at Platinum: 422.32/959.57 = 44.0%
at SN: 591.25/959.57 = 61.6

Corrections or confirmation would be appreciated.

Re: Never played Stars, just how good are FPPs?
 

I still dont understand how any of this is considered RB.Am i correct that you need to gain 100,000 points just to get a $1500 bonus that a site like AP offers every week for nothing?And the idea that i can get ten hats and an ipod for my points, and after doing the math this means im getting 60% RB seems silly as well.Could someone once and for all help me understand why player points that are also given on top of actual RB($) at other sites,somehow can be a substitute for an actual cash RB program?Someone convince me to play at Stars just from the RB angle.I see other reasons that make Stars attractive to play at,but just ignore them for the sake of arguement.

Re: Never played Stars, just how good are FPPs?
 

lol at "RB Equivalent" theory ...Someone change my mind.

Re: Never played Stars, just how good are FPPs?
 

[ QUOTE ]
lol at "RB Equivalent" theory ...Someone change my mind.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you do not understand this then you shouldn't play poker anywhere IMO.

Re: Never played Stars, just how good are FPPs?
 

[ QUOTE ]
lol at "RB Equivalent" theory ...Someone change my mind.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's really not that hard. Do you know what the word "equivalent" means?

Re: Never played Stars, just how good are FPPs?
 

Just for kicks I just did the same sort of analysis for my recent play on Absolute. I started earning RB there around the end of November, and was hoping to make them my home site before they changed their bonus terms. Anyway here's a breakdown of my play at Absolute while the old bonus terms were still in effect. This is all at $1/$2 FR LHE.

Hands: 17,716
VIP Points: 6,013 (33.9%)
ARP Points:
Basic: 6,013
Elite (3x): 18,039

Cleared Bonus (old rules): $601.30

MGR per affiliate: $1,189.02

Rakeback (28%): $332.93

Cash equivalent of ARP Points ($0.01 per ARP point):
Basic: $60.13
Elite: $180.39

Total Earnings (Cleared Bonus + RB + Cash equivalent of ARP points):
Basic: $994.36 (83.6% of MGR)
Elite: $1,114.62 (93.7% of MGR)

This does not even include the value of the VIP freerolls.

Right now I've withdrawn my entire balance from Absolute. I am waiting for the next reload bonus, then I will play a thousand or two hands to see how the new bonus clearing rate changes the above calculations.

Top 5 reasons why Stars is better than Absolute despite the above stats:
5. Stars has better game selection
4. Stars has games availabile at my preferred limit 24/7
3. Stars' FR LHE games are 10-handed vs. Absolute's 9-handed. Bigger pots and higher percentage of pots reach the level required for a VPP.
2. I have a higher win rate at Stars than I do at Absolute (simple, though possibly flawed, conclusion: Stars is fishier)

And the #1 reason why Stars is better than Absolute despite the above stats:

1. Lee Jones

Re: Never played Stars, just how good are FPPs?
 

Do you is the question? It appears you dont.Ok,now does anyone want to really try to answer my question?

Re: Never played Stars, just how good are FPPs?
 

Here is a calculation from me. I play 5 10 full ring and 10 20 full ring. over 90% of these hands have been on 5 10 full ring fixed limit since Stars doesnt have the 10 20 full game going that often.

90,289 hands played

93,430 VPP earned ( Ive also played a few tournaments, but not many )

I am platinum so multiply by 2.5 = 225,000 FPP

Total rake I have paid is 8,183.55

225,000 x .016 = roughly 3,100

= 37.8 rakeback % for my particular case and that is at Platinum level.


someone please correct me if my calculations are wrong. I hav been on a bad losing streak so I havent been winning much so my paid rake is pretty low, although my paid rake is always low because I play 12 / 11 very tight aggro style

Hope this helps some people

O we can also add about 500 dollars in tournament rake paid

Re: Never played Stars, just how good are FPPs?
 

Ty Big,thats more of what i was hoping to get,except for PS lol

Re: Never played Stars, just how good are FPPs?
 

"Top 5 reasons why Stars is better than Absolute despite the above stats:
5. Stars has better game selection
4. Stars has games availabile at my preferred limit 24/7
3. Stars' FR LHE games are 10-handed vs. Absolute's 9-handed. Bigger pots and higher percentage of pots reach the level required for a VPP.
2. I have a higher win rate at Stars than I do at Absolute (simple, though possibly flawed, conclusion: Stars is fishier)

And the #1 reason why Stars is better than Absolute despite the above stats:

1. Lee Jones"


Thats why i added in my post, "I see other reasons that make Stars attractive to play at,but just ignore them for the sake of arguement."

Re: Never played Stars, just how good are FPPs?
 

Warning: Temporary Thread Hijack Post

Hog, I've noticed in a couple of Absolute-related posts that you're mainly a $1/$2 FR LHE player too. Have you played much since the bonus change? What's the clearance rate been at that level?

Re: Never played Stars, just how good are FPPs?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
lol at "RB Equivalent" theory ...Someone change my mind.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you do not understand this then you shouldn't play poker anywhere IMO.

[/ QUOTE ]You make excellent points.Love is blind i know,but try to think a little.Wipe your nose too.Wowwww

Re: Never played Stars, just how good are FPPs?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Total rake I have paid is 8,183.55

[/ QUOTE ]

I would use the total MGR figure shown on the Game Notes tab. Make sure to set the Rake filter to $0.00. How does that compare to the Total Rake figure on the General Info. tab?

Re: Never played Stars, just how good are FPPs?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Warning: Temporary Thread Hijack Post

Hog, I've noticed in a couple of Absolute-related posts that you're mainly a $1/$2 FR LHE player too. Have you played much since the bonus change? What's the clearance rate been at that level?

[/ QUOTE ]Horrible,im pretty much done there.It clears about 1/3 the old rate at small stakes.Thats why i wanted to discuss this.I need somewhere else to log alot of hands.I have nothing against PS.The only thing that keeps me from choosing them is the no RB policy.Others seem to believe there is one,i just dont see it.I was hoping someone could convince me otherwise,but people seem to get offended just to even question this.I love some of the other things PS offers.I dont know,ill just quit angering people lol

Re: Never played Stars, just how good are FPPs?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Warning: Temporary Thread Hijack Post

Hog, I've noticed in a couple of Absolute-related posts that you're mainly a $1/$2 FR LHE player too. Have you played much since the bonus change? What's the clearance rate been at that level?

[/ QUOTE ]Horrible,im pretty much done there.It clears about 1/3 the old rate at small stakes.Thats why i wanted to discuss this.I need somewhere else to log alot of hands.I have nothing against PS.The only thing that keeps me from choosing them is the no RB policy.Others seem to believe there is one,i just dont see it.I was hoping someone could convince me otherwise,but people seem to get offended just to even question this.I love some of the other things PS offers.I dont know,ill just quit angering people lol

[/ QUOTE ]

On Stars, you earn points.
Your points have a dollar value
You turn your dollar value, into dollars. Or electronics. Or cars. Or trips.

I'm not sure what your not seeing.

Re: Never played Stars, just how good are FPPs?
 

Let me explain,if i owed you $20 dollars and showed up at your house with $20 in socks,would you consider this equal?I want cash,i dont consider receiving gifts that i dont even want to be the same,even if they are equal in value sorta speak.On top of that,every site gives me this on top of RB and Bonuses,wheres the edge??? Im not sure what your not seeing.

Re: Never played Stars, just how good are FPPs?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Let me explain,if i owed you $20 dollars and showed up at your house with $20 in socks,would you consider this equal?I want cash,i dont consider receiving gifts that i dont even want to be the same,even if they are equal in value sorta speak.On top of that,every site gives me this on top of RB and Bonuses,wheres the edge??? Im not sure what your not seeing.

[/ QUOTE ]

You do know, you can buy cash in the Stars store right?

Re: Never played Stars, just how good are FPPs?
 

"You turn your dollar value, into dollars."

Is this true? Or can you merely turn them into a bonus that still must be cleared with more points???

Re: Never played Stars, just how good are FPPs?
 

[ QUOTE ]
"You turn your dollar value, into dollars."

Is this true? Or can you merely turn them into a bonus that still must be cleared with more points???

[/ QUOTE ]

It's a bonus, but who cares?

Are you quitting poker or something? No, your going to keep playing. And as you clear the bonus, you get more fpp's...to use for more money.

Re: Never played Stars, just how good are FPPs?
 

lol you dont see a difference between having to earn 100,000 points to receive a bonus that every other site gives for free and cold hard cash???

Re: Never played Stars, just how good are FPPs?
 

[ QUOTE ]
lol you dont see a difference between having to earn 100,000 points to receive a bonus that every other site gives for free and cold hard cash???

[/ QUOTE ]

Why does it matter? It's money. I couldn't give a [censored] how I get the money. If they want me to earn 10K VPP's, why do I care?

Would I PREFER that I get cash? Sure.
Do I care? No. Why would I? It's just nitpicking.

Re: Never played Stars, just how good are FPPs?
 

[ QUOTE ]
lol you dont see a difference between having to earn 100,000 points to receive a bonus that every other site gives for free and cold hard cash???

[/ QUOTE ]

What? Are you serious?

Sites don't "give it for free". Is this a joke? Am I getting leveled?

Re: Never played Stars, just how good are FPPs?
 

I hear what your saying bro.Everyone looks at things different i guess.Theres nothing wrong with that.Ill quit annoying everyone and return you to the previously scheduled program. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]Peace!

Re: Never played Stars, just how good are FPPs?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
lol you dont see a difference between having to earn 100,000 points to receive a bonus that every other site gives for free and cold hard cash???

[/ QUOTE ]

What? Are you serious?

Sites don't "give it for free". Is this a joke? Am I getting leveled?

[/ QUOTE ]Forget it,im out lol

Re: Never played Stars, just how good are FPPs?
 

[ QUOTE ]
I hear what your saying bro.Everyone looks at things different i guess.Theres nothing wrong with that.Ill quit annoying everyone and return you to the previously scheduled program. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]Peace!

[/ QUOTE ]

Look.

On Absolute. You pay rake. You get rakeback. They don't give you anything for free. You PAY in rake, and they PAY you in rakeback. Why is that free?
On Stars, you pay rake. You get points. You turn points in for cash.

That's the same thing. I'm sorry you don't agree, but it really is. The ONLY difference is that to get the cash on Stars, you must clear a small bonus. But as long as you plan to keep playing, there doesn't matter at all. Not to mention, the bonuses are so small in comparison to the bonuses, even if you wanted to quit playing poker, you would still not care about taking a couple of extra days to clear your last bonus.

Re: Never played Stars, just how good are FPPs?
 

Hog, like you, I'm trying to look at my total income from a site. To me this comes from at least five different sources: bonuses, rakeback, cash value of loyalty points, cash value of VIP freerolls, and of course my poker-playing win rate.

I try to reduce each source to a cents-per-hand value to facilitate site vs. site comparisons based on the total of all sources.

Stars has been having 3 or 4 reload bonuses a year vs. Absolutes endless reloads.

Stars has no rakeback vs. Absolute's 28% (soon to be 30%).

Stars FPPs are worth $0.016 each vs. Absolute's ARPs being worth a penny each. You can't make a direct comparison though because earning rates are different based on several factors, not the least of which is the level you are at in the site's VIP program.

Both sites have VIP freerolls. I haven't spent much time calculating the value of these since I usually suck at tourneys (though I did cash for $12 at one this weekend!)

As I stated earlier, I have a higher win rate at Stars than I do at Absolute.

Put it all together, along with the top 5 reasons I spelled out earlier, and which site is better? Who knows. Ultimately, I guess it comes down to which one you are most comfortable playing at. But I don't think it comes down to just whether or not a site has rakeback.

Re: Never played Stars, just how good are FPPs?
 

[ QUOTE ]
"You turn your dollar value, into dollars."

Is this true? Or can you merely turn them into a bonus that still must be cleared with more points???

[/ QUOTE ]

It's true. At the SuperNova level you can get $3,000 worth of gift cards to just about anywhere for 186,000 FPPs. When I make SN next year, I plan to ask for $1,000 gift cards to a couple of local supermarkets and to the local gas station. To me, and to most people, these are as good as cash.

Re: Never played Stars, just how good are FPPs?
 

it is more then equivilent in my opinion... here are some things i have disucessed with the vip boys at PS...

Ok, u want to play the 500$ or the 1k tourny they run monthly quaterly...

You can buy (2) 215$ tickets at 13k a piece 1.59c on the dollar, then if yer platnum or better u can use them and pay the difference with cash... theres one way of getting a return in cash... (if u plan on playing the big tournys anyhow....)

2) get 180k fpps, and they are worth 3grand.... you can get anything u want practically... If they cant get if for you, YOU buy it (credit card is fine), send them a statement and they credit yer account with cash.
I recently talked to PSVIP peeps and they said they would be willing make accomidations to pay off my tuition debt of 5k for whatever the FPP conversion is."hence im buying an education" (probably around 325k)... this is good as cash for me.... (as id be paying the debt in cash anyhow, get liquid folks)

Thirdly dont look at the cash u can buy in the stores for FPP thats a scam for dummies, not 2p2ers. There is way better ways to get equity out of yer FPPS....

this coupled with the reasons someone stated before make stars a win-win situation. The game selection aside they RB is very "equivalent" to RB.

think outside the box.

Re: Never played Stars, just how good are FPPs?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Not to mention, the bonuses are so small in comparison to the bonuses, even if you wanted to quit playing poker, you would still not care about taking a couple of extra days to clear your last bonus.


[/ QUOTE ]

8th level

Re: Never played Stars, just how good are FPPs?
 

[ QUOTE ]

2) get 180k fpps, and they are worth 3grand.... you can get anything u want practically... If they cant get if for you, YOU buy it (credit card is fine), send them a statement and they credit yer account with cash.
I recently talked to PSVIP peeps and they said they would be willing make accomidations to pay off my tuition debt of 5k for whatever the FPP conversion is."hence im buying an education" (probably around 325k)... this is good as cash for me.... (as id be paying the debt in cash anyhow, get liquid folks)

Thirdly dont look at the cash u can buy in the stores for FPP thats a scam for dummies, not 2p2ers. There is way better ways to get equity out of yer FPPS....


[/ QUOTE ]

The problem for me, with getting a worse return on straight cash (or bonii) than on a gift card is that I don't treat my poker money as fungible with my non-poker money. So I don't want to have to go shopping around for ways to spend my rewards to get a better return than I can get for straight up money (or bonii).

Ordinarily what you say is true, if you get a gift card for something you would buy anyway, well money is money is money. Its all fungible. But in my case, since I strictly separate my poker bankroll from my "real" money, my bankroll and outside money are not interchangeable. So I want my poker rewards to go into my bankroll not into my spending money.

To get the effect that you're talking about, the way I treat my money, I'd have to take an additional step of, everytime I spent say 150 bucks from my gift card on groceries, I'd have to transfer 150 bucks from my checking to my bankroll. That's a hassle I'd just as soon not go through.

Plus, at a certain point, I'm just not buying that many groceries or gas. And I'm not big on planning my discretionary spending. Altough I frequently buy books at barnes and nobles or wherever, I have an amazon gift card that I've had for about 13 months now, and not used.

--Zetack

Re: Never played Stars, just how good are FPPs?
 

The only main negative to the Stars system is that it somewhat
enslaves you to them.

I.E. You win $50,000 and decide your going to play poker for a living online at 100NL 6Max.

If you sign up at FTP you get a $600 deposit bonus and you immediatly start earning 27% rakeback, minus fees, on the rake you pay.

At Stars you sign up and I believe get a 100% deposit bonus.
You earn FPP but not until say 2-3 months later do u earn the higher percentage of rakeback as a Supernova. If you can't multi table then it may take longer

Also...say you decide to take a 3 month vacation free of poker.

You come back to FTP and immediatly get you 27% rakeback starting from day 1.

Stars you start the process all over again.

If Stars removed the $$ bonuses you could buy with FPP then I'd say Stars would drop more because there is a big difference between getting cash in your account and having to sell [censored] you got for free on ebay.

Re: Never played Stars, just how good are FPPs?
 

my thread is getting slightly hijacked here, please stay on topic.

Re: Never played Stars, just how good are FPPs?
 

[ QUOTE ]
lol at "RB Equivalent" theory ...Someone change my mind.

[/ QUOTE ]

I will try. Let's assume you are a supernova;

1) You collect 100,000 FPPs (likely have it already)

2) You go to the VIP store and buy a $1,500 bonus by two clicks in exchange to your 100,000 FPPs (note - no need for affiliates)

3) You continue to play and collect 10,500 VPPs within next 90 days. As you are Supernova it shouldn't take you more than a week or so.

4) You are automatically credited with $1,500. Nothing is deducted - bonuses, freerolls, fees, none. The FPPs you collected to clear $1,500 are still yours and can be used to purchase the next bonus. So it didn't cost you anything beyond the original 100,000 FPPs.

Is that clear?

Now can you explain how is that worse than any other rakeback variant?

Re: Never played Stars, just how good are FPPs?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
lol at "RB Equivalent" theory ...Someone change my mind.

[/ QUOTE ]

I will try. Let's assume you are a supernova;

1) You collect 100,000 FPPs (likely have it already)

2) You go to the VIP store and buy a $1,500 bonus by two clicks in exchange to your 100,000 FPPs (note - no need for affiliates)

3) You continue to play and collect 10,500 VPPs within next 90 days. As you are Supernova it shouldn't take you more than a week or so.

4) You are automatically credited with $1,500. Nothing is deducted - bonuses, freerolls, fees, none. The FPPs you collected to clear $1,500 are still yours and can be used to purchase the next bonus. So it didn't cost you anything beyond the original 100,000 FPPs.

Is that clear?

Now can you explain how is that worse than any other rakeback variant?

[/ QUOTE ]

You have to be supernova.

Thread over.

Re: Never played Stars, just how good are FPPs?
 

How much "RB" gives supernova for 2/4 fixed FR?

Re: Never played Stars, just how good are FPPs?
 

[ QUOTE ]

You have to be supernova.
Thread over.


[/ QUOTE ]

Maybe for you, but not for OP and anybody else who plays a lot of hands.

Also exactly the same process is for Gold and Platinum just their numbers are worse.