Why exactly is it bad etiquette to ask to see a losing showdown hand?
 

Like many of the younger players around today, I started playing online before at a casino. And online, its very easy to click on the hand history box and see what cards your opponent mucked when he lost at showdown.

Now I have never asked to see a losing hand at showdown in person because I know that its considered bad etiquette. But my question is why? Poker is a game about acquiring information imo, and a player should be able to do anything within the rules in order to help him do this. Furthermore it just makes sense to me that both players SHOULD HAVE TO show their cards at a showdown.

Can anyone explain to me the basis behind the etiquette here?

Re: Why exactly is it bad etiquette to ask to see a losing showdown ha
 

It just is. I don't mean to be dismissive or to imply that the etiquette is inappropriate or misguided.

The convention is old and (largely) honored, and it's just impolite to ask to see the hand just for information.

If it's your last hand at a casino before you move to a different city, and you bet and the opponent agonizes and folds, it's bad etiquette to reach into the muck to grab his hand and look at it (even though no recourse will really punish you). Just is.

--Nate

Re: Why exactly is it bad etiquette to ask to see a losing showdown ha
 

The only reason the "I want to see the hand" rule exists is to prevent collusion - 2 comrades raising and reraising junk hands to steal money from a 3rd player. If you bet heads up, and your opponent folds (or calls and mucks), you are not entitled to the info of what they had.

-Tom

Re: Why exactly is it bad etiquette to ask to see a losing showdown hand?
 

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Can anyone explain to me the basis behind the etiquette here?

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the golden rule. if you get caught bluffing with a busted draw would YOU want to show your 9-high? or, if you get sucked out on by a gutshot against your top set, would you like it if he says, "what'd you have anyway? aces? kings? a set? i wanna see the hand, dealer." as he's dragging a $10k pot or something, no less; how would you like that? not so much? ok then.

Re: Why exactly is it bad etiquette to ask to see a losing showdown ha
 

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It just is. I don't mean to be dismissive or to imply that the etiquette is inappropriate or misguided.



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Or to be more direct: "You won; he conceded." Why do you want to risk making him feel like you are rubbing it in by asking to see his cards?

Re: Why exactly is it bad etiquette to ask to see a losing showdown ha
 

Making everybody show their hands at showdown is going to cause many players to play better. They often know that they are making bad plays but comfort themselves with the knowledge that only THEY know it. Making them embarrassed in front of the table is not a good idea.

Re: Why exactly is it bad etiquette to ask to see a losing showdown ha
 

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Making everybody show their hands at showdown is going to cause many players to play better. They often know that they are making bad plays but comfort themselves with the knowledge that only THEY know it. Making them embarrassed in front of the table is not a good idea.

[/ QUOTE ]

agreed

Re: Why exactly is it bad etiquette to ask to see a losing showdown ha
 

Just pointing out: everything in this thread (only use IWTSTH if you suspect collusion; Golden Rule; etc.) is well and good, and I'm glad people pointed it out, but doesn't really get closer to the issue. Why do you only use IWTSTH if you suspect collusion? Why wouldn't you want it done to you (plenty of actions within the rules and within standard etiquette, like waiting for a called bettor to expose his hand first, are things you wouldn't want done to you)?

Because it's impolite, just as spitting (non-maliciously) in the immediate company of a stranger is impolite. Poker society at large dictates so. It might be different some day, but that day isn't today, and it's probably not tomorrow either.

--Nate

Re: Why exactly is it bad etiquette to ask to see a losing showdown ha
 

Everyone, even a 2p2er makes a bad decision, and it sucks when you have to show everyone that you played THAT(!)

Like calling a bet on the flop and two bets on the turn with Q6 on an AKKTx board, river check check, pocket twos good, IWTSTH........ I don't wanna show [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

Re: Why exactly is it bad etiquette to ask to see a losing showdown ha
 

"politeness" is essentially the same reason as not embarrassing your opponents/the golden rule. i think it's more than that, actually. quite simply, it's the rules of the game--example:

if i go all-in on the river with the nuts, and get called, i must show first. after i show, my opponent can show his hand too if he wishes (some guys will do that in a "look, i also had a big hand" sorta way), but usually he will just muck. if he chooses to muck, then--according to the rules of the game--I HAVE NO RIGHT TO SEE HIS HAND UNLESS I SUSPECT COLLUSION.

i think calling it "etiquette" is a mistake; it's not etiquette, it's the RULE. having the option to withhold information, even at showdown, is the rule in live poker. the opposite is true on the internet: for the integrity of their games, it's a necessity for online poker sites to display all showndown hands in hand histories. that online rule has in turn created misunderstanding with the live-game rule.

Re: Why exactly is it bad etiquette to ask to see a losing showdown ha
 

I've used it when the player is supposed to show but won't. There are a few of these types where I play the most. I've called his bet or it was check-check on the river, and his order on the table dictates he show first. The dealer tells him to show but he refuses, and he won't muck either. So I tell the dealer IWTSTH and then show mine.

Re: Why exactly is it bad etiquette to ask to see a losing showdown ha
 

[ QUOTE ]
If it's your last hand at a casino before you move to a different city, and you bet and the opponent agonizes and folds, it's bad etiquette to reach into the muck to grab his hand and look at it (even though no recourse will really punish you).

[/ QUOTE ]
btw, just noticed this. wtf?

Re: Why exactly is it bad etiquette to ask to see a losing showdown ha
 

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I've used it when the player is supposed to show but won't. There are a few of these types where I play the most. I've called his bet or it was check-check on the river, and his order on the table dictates he show first. The dealer tells him to show but he refuses, and he won't muck either. So I tell the dealer IWTSTH and then show mine.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is not really a situation of IWTSTH. He is obligated to show his hand or muck. In situations like this you have every right to see his hand since you called (or he can muck forfeiting the pot). If I dont like the guy I will just sit there not show my hand and simply say "show or muck".

Re: Why exactly is it bad etiquette to ask to see a losing showdown ha
 

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I've used it when the player is supposed to show but won't. There are a few of these types where I play the most. I've called his bet or it was check-check on the river, and his order on the table dictates he show first. The dealer tells him to show but he refuses, and he won't muck either. So I tell the dealer IWTSTH and then show mine.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is not really a situation of IWTSTH. He is obligated to show his hand or muck. In situations like this you have every right to see his hand since you called (or he can muck forfeiting the pot). If I dont like the guy I will just sit there not show my hand and simply say "show or muck".

[/ QUOTE ]
i was about to post nearly the exact same reply.

also, nate said earlier, "plenty of actions within the rules and within standard etiquette, like waiting for a called bettor to expose his hand first, are things you wouldn't want done to you"

i have no problem whatsoever with someone telling me/waiting for me to "show or muck." dem's the rules.

Re: Why exactly is it bad etiquette to ask to see a losing showdown ha
 

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I've used it when the player is supposed to show but won't. There are a few of these types where I play the most. I've called his bet or it was check-check on the river, and his order on the table dictates he show first. The dealer tells him to show but he refuses, and he won't muck either. So I tell the dealer IWTSTH and then show mine.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is not really a situation of IWTSTH. He is obligated to show his hand or muck. In situations like this you have every right to see his hand since you called (or he can muck forfeiting the pot). If I dont like the guy I will just sit there not show my hand and simply say "show or muck".

[/ QUOTE ]
i was about to post nearly the exact same reply.

also, nate said earlier, "plenty of actions within the rules and within standard etiquette, like waiting for a called bettor to expose his hand first, are things you wouldn't want done to you"

i have no problem whatsoever with someone telling me/waiting for me to "show or muck." dem's the rules.

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What if you are not in the hand, and the bettor refuses to show until the caller shows and then he mucks? Do you think it's okay to use the IWTSTH rule then? (this happens a lot at our casino because the dealers arent very consistant about who shows first)

I think everyone at the table really had a right to see that person's hand since he was supposed to show but most Internet players dont really understand that. However it's probally really against the rules since it's not for the reason of preventing collusion.

Ive done this in the past, but if it's the other way around and the bettor shows and the losing caller mucks, I think it's just plain rude to ask to see his hand. (it's happened to me a ton of times at our casino)

I saw one instance where the person who used the IWTSTH and admited it was just because he wanted to see what the player had, and then the dealer refused to invoke the rule for him anymore that day. That's probally about the only time Ive seen it refused though, it seems they have to oblige almost every time even though rarely is it about collusion.

Re: Why exactly is it bad etiquette to ask to see a losing showdown ha
 

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[ QUOTE ]
If it's your last hand at a casino before you move to a different city, and you bet and the opponent agonizes and folds, it's bad etiquette to reach into the muck to grab his hand and look at it (even though no recourse will really punish you).

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btw, just noticed this. wtf?

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The point is that it's a situation where there's no recourse available against you (in theory you don't care about getting a one-week ban from the casino or anthing because you're about to move). Still you (hypothetically) don't do it because it's improper.

Also, your point about rules vs. etiquette is well-taken, but in many cardrooms (Borgata, Casino Arizona) the rule is a carte-blanche* IWTSTH-is-OK and I think it's still improper to abuse it.

--Nate

*Either or both of these cardrooms might have policies in place to prevent excessive but neither, I believe, mentions collusion in the rules. In this way IWTSTH is similar to many other rights the player has but cannot be overused.

Re: Why exactly is it bad etiquette to ask to see a losing showdown ha
 

If you called a bet on the last street then the bettor has to show his hand. I would refuse to show my hand. I would not say "IWTSTH". I would say "I called, show or muck". If pressed I would say again "I called you must show or muck".

It gets tricky when everyone is allin befor the river. Different rooms have different rules but the common rule is last aggressive action (ie bet/raise) must show first but lots of rooms in LA especially do not follow this convention.

Re: Why exactly is it bad etiquette to ask to see a losing showdown ha
 

[ QUOTE ]
"politeness" is essentially the same reason as not embarrassing your opponents/the golden rule. i think it's more than that, actually. quite simply, it's the rules of the game--example:

if i go all-in on the river with the nuts, and get called, i must show first. after i show, my opponent can show his hand too if he wishes (some guys will do that in a "look, i also had a big hand" sorta way), but usually he will just muck. if he chooses to muck, then--according to the rules of the game--I HAVE NO RIGHT TO SEE HIS HAND UNLESS I SUSPECT COLLUSION.

i think calling it "etiquette" is a mistake; it's not etiquette, it's the RULE. having the option to withhold information, even at showdown, is the rule in live poker. the opposite is true on the internet: for the integrity of their games, it's a necessity for online poker sites to display all showndown hands in hand histories. that online rule has in turn created misunderstanding with the live-game rule.

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Good post. But again, cardrooms are catering to the drooling masses and making it easy on their floorpeople and allowing IWTSTH carte blanche. I'd say it's still a breach of etiquette and inappropriate to IWTSTH purely for information.

--Nate

Re: Why exactly is it bad etiquette to ask to see a losing showdown ha
 

If someone asks to see another hand I usually ask "Do you think he is cheating?". They of course say "no". I then say you realize that you are accusing him of cheating when you ask to see his hand right?

Re: Why exactly is it bad etiquette to ask to see a losing showdown ha
 

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If someone asks to see another hand I usually ask "Do you think he is cheating?". They of course say "no". I then say you realize that you are accusing him of cheating when you ask to see his hand right?

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Actually I think that's a good ploy, because once he admits that he's not doing it for the purpose of collusion (saying 'no'), doesnt that make IWTSTH illegal. I know some dealers who would look at it that way.

Unfortuanlly most dealers as soon as someone asks to the see the hand will flip it over right away before anyone gets a chance to say anything.

Re: Why exactly is it bad etiquette to ask to see a losing showdown ha
 

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If someone asks to see another hand I usually ask "Do you think he is cheating?". They of course say "no". I then say you realize that you are accusing him of cheating when you ask to see his hand right?

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I think it's preferable to gently point out that etiquette dictates that you only ask to see a hand if you suspect cheating. For me a more direct, less confrontational comment is better, if I'm going to say anything at all. Usually I won't, for many reasons.

--Nate

Re: Why exactly is it bad etiquette to ask to see a losing showdown ha
 

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If someone asks to see another hand I usually ask "Do you think he is cheating?". They of course say "no". I then say you realize that you are accusing him of cheating when you ask to see his hand right?

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually I think that's a good ploy, because once he admits that he's not doing it for the purpose of collusion (saying 'no'), doesnt that make IWTSTH illegal. I know some dealers who would look at it that way.

Unfortuanlly most dealers as soon as someone asks to the see the hand will flip it over right away before anyone gets a chance to say anything.

[/ QUOTE ]

Again, in many cardrooms the rule is that if you ask, you see, no questions, no problems. Also, good dealers will (in a general sense) avoid making big productions out of these sorts of things.

--Nate

Re: Why exactly is it bad etiquette to ask to see a losing showdown hand?
 

Don't kick a man when he's down.

Re: Why exactly is it bad etiquette to ask to see a losing showdown ha
 

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Don't kick a man when he's down.

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Dead on as usual.



http://img48.imageshack.us/img48/2347/img42dm6.gif

Re: Why exactly is it bad etiquette to ask to see a losing showdown ha
 

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Don't kick a man when he's down.

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Well, then, let's include:

http://us.inmagine.com/168nwm/dynami...1/vc001027.jpg

and

http://www.australianoutdoors.com/im...hing%20man.jpg

Re: Why exactly is it bad etiquette to ask to see a losing showdown ha
 

It depends on the situation. If a guy bets into me like crazy and I make a tough call, I have no qualms about asking to see his hand. I wanna whether he was betting with am naked AK, flush draw, 22, etc.

Re: Why exactly is it bad etiquette to ask to see a losing showdown ha
 

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The dealer tells him to show but he refuses, and he won't muck either. So I tell the dealer IWTSTH and then show mine.

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If a player refused to show his cards even after being directed to by the dealer, I would say in a fairly loud voice "If he is refusing to show then he is conceding--please ship me the pot."

Re: Why exactly is it bad etiquette to ask to see a losing showdown ha
 

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It depends on the situation. If a guy bets into me like crazy and I make a tough call, I have no qualms about asking to see his hand. I wanna whether he was betting with am naked AK, flush draw, 22, etc.

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'Asking' the player is not bad etiquette, if he wants to show. If he doesn't want to and mucks, and you insist on seeing them, then it is.

If someone wants to be a nit and play like this, don't be surprised when people start demanding to see your cards at every muck, or get nitty about your string bets, etc. The new guy usually catches on before too long.

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The dealer tells him to show but he refuses, and he won't muck either. So I tell the dealer IWTSTH and then show mine.

[/ QUOTE ]

Last time I saw this happen, the floor gave him to the count of three. When he didn't show, the hand was ruled dead.

Re: Why exactly is it bad etiquette to ask to see a losing showdown hand?
 

Lets not forget if he misread his hand and beats you he wins
and you just screwed yourself out of that pot

Re: Why exactly is it bad etiquette to ask to see a losing showdown hand?
 

If you have to ask this question you are a douchebag

Re: Why exactly is it bad etiquette to ask to see a losing showdown ha
 

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It depends on the situation. If a guy bets into me like crazy and I make a tough call, I have no qualms about asking to see his hand. I wanna whether he was betting with am naked AK, flush draw, 22, etc.

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If he bets and you call, he's going to either say "no pair" or "you're good" or "i missed" or whatever. But you're basically going to know what they had and a bettor *has* to show first anyways.

Re: Why exactly is it bad etiquette to ask to see a losing showdown ha
 

I think it'd kill the action from the fish a little if every player had to show their hands at showdown. It also slows the game down.

Re: Why exactly is it bad etiquette to ask to see a losing showdown ha
 

Playing live, I have found that more no-limit players ask to see cards than limit players. Aside from a few instances, I won't ask to see anyone's cards. Once they hit the muck, let's get the next hand going.

Re: Why exactly is it bad etiquette to ask to see a losing showdown ha
 

You might find Tommy Angelo's IWTSTH essay helpful.

~ Rick

Re: Why exactly is it bad etiquette to ask to see a losing showdown hand?
 

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Furthermore it just makes sense to me that both players SHOULD HAVE TO show their cards at a showdown.



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WTF!

Re: Why exactly is it bad etiquette to ask to see a losing showdown ha
 

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Can anyone explain to me the basis behind the etiquette here?

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On-line Casino's show the hands because they don't want to be deluged with "They're Cheating" requests flooding their support. So they show all hands at showdown. This also allows weaker players to get better, and allows the cheaterwear that datamines a table to get a better read on the players at the tables.

In addition whats been mentioned in posts above,

1) You may inadvertently cost someone a pot, by saying IWTSTH a player that might have mucked now shows costing the other player a hand. Some dealers I've talked to will sometimes flip the cards up before touching the muck keeping them live intentionally in the hope that they will affect the outcome, and thus punsh the IWTSTH player. They said they limit this activity to the player who's in the hand that does this.

2) It identifies the person doing it constantly as a weak player. If you don't have a reasonable idea of what happened on a hand you should pick up your chips and head to the blackjack or craps table. There will be times when you are curious, or you have to settle for a range of hands with out knowing the exact hand but you ought to be able to get the jist of what they have.

3) It causes bad feelings at the table, who would you rather play with guys that keep it light an joke around or angle shooters trying to put people on tilt to get an edge. Rule one of a poker game is keep it happy, keep it light, keep em gambling, as Sun Tzu said "Be generous in victory and ruthless in defeat." asking to see a loser is punishing that person and shaming him.

4)By invoking a rule to combat cheating you are accusing the other player of cheating. I know these days younger people don't take personal reputation very seriously, but there was a time that when you accused someone of cheating that was a serious thing and requires a little proof.

Here's a personal antidote where it was called on me:

I was at a $500 buy in tournament at the Gold Strike, it was early in the tournament (first level) I get 9-10 of clubs in a middle possition 5 people limp. Flop comes K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] early player bets, player next to the better calls, I raise. turn is 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] early player bets, guy calls I raise again. the first player calls, the guy between us gives up the ghose. river is a 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] the first player checks, I decide that even if I bet I'm getting called so I decide to give up the ghost and check. After I check the player who folded on the turn says IWTSTH. Early player shows K6. I turned to him and asked firmly "Who do you think I'm cheating with, the purpose of the rule is to prevent cheating so who am I cheating with."

His reply was "Nobody I just want to know what you're playing."

I told him "Thats not the purpose of the rule, what exactly do you think I have ?"

He said "A flush draw that you missed with" while the discussuion is going on I noticed that the dealer wasn't protecting the muck, so I took my cards and fired them into the muck. One of them made it into the middle of the pile one was retrieveable, as I did I said "I guess you don't need to see them then" If I hadn't been in the 5 seat I never would have tried this but the muck was closer to me that the dealers hand so I tossed my hand. The guy got pissed that he only got to see one card and took a walk. I did get a stern warning from the dealer however. a win-win for me. When the dude came back he didn't ask for anymore hands...

Re: Why exactly is it bad etiquette to ask to see a losing showdown ha
 

IWTSTH doesn't apply in tournaments, does it? I've never seen it in any tournament I've played in.

Re: Why exactly is it bad etiquette to ask to see a losing showdown hand?
 

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If you don't know the reason for something and don't ask you are a douchebag

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FYP

Re: Why exactly is it bad etiquette to ask to see a losing showdown ha
 

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1) You may inadvertently cost someone a pot, by saying IWTSTH a player that might have mucked now shows costing the other player a hand. Some dealers I've talked to will sometimes flip the cards up before touching the muck keeping them live intentionally in the hope that they will affect the outcome, and thus punsh the IWTSTH player. They said they limit this activity to the player who's in the hand that does this.


[/ QUOTE ]

You do not know the rule. If 'the winner' asks to see the hand, then the hand is live, even if the dealer 'touches the muck' with them. If anybody else asks to see the hand, it is dead, even if the dealer does not 'touch the muck' with the cards. So a dealer cannot 'punish' anyone and a 3rd party cannot cost 'the winner' the pot (if the dealer turns the hand over, if the player turns his own hand over, it is live).

Re: Why exactly is it bad etiquette to ask to see a losing showdown ha
 

[ QUOTE ]
You might find Tommy Angelo's IWTSTH essay helpful.

~ Rick

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As well as Bob Ciafone's 3 article series in the Card Player archives, its the best treatment of the IWTSTH rule I have read to date.

TT [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]