What % of major tourney players are backed by sheets/bax?
 

Seems like every online player who plays in these except Alex Jacob and Strassa are backed by these guys.

How many horses do these guys have? In a standard WPT tourney, what % of the field is playing for sheets/bax?

Also, what about Ivey? Seems like every other non-online player is playing for him. How many horses does he have?

Anyone else besides these guys have big chunks of the fields?

Re: What % of major tourney players are backed by sheets/bax?
 

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Seems like every online player who plays in these except Alex Jacob and Strassa are backed by these guys.

How many horses do these guys have? In a standard WPT tourney, what % of the field is playing for sheets/bax?

Also, what about Ivey? Seems like every other non-online player is playing for him. How many horses does he have?

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with all of the different backing/endorsement deals what stops tournament poker from turning into team poker?

Re: What % of major tourney players are backed by sheets/bax?
 

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Seems like every online player who plays in these except Alex Jacob and Strassa are backed by these guys.

How many horses do these guys have? In a standard WPT tourney, what % of the field is playing for sheets/bax?

Also, what about Ivey? Seems like every other non-online player is playing for him. How many horses does he have?

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with all of the different backing/endorsement deals what stops tournament poker from turning into team poker?

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If you watched the Habib/Tuan Le v Maxfield final three at the WPT championship in 2005, you saw team poker in action. It wasn't very edifying to watch.

Re: What % of major tourney players are backed by sheets/bax?
 

Doesn't seem like any backer ever has more than 3 or 4% of the field, and probably 1-2% more more typically.

I wasn't aware of Phil Ivey being a high-volume backer.

Re: What % of major tourney players are backed by sheets/bax?
 

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with all of the different backing/endorsement deals what stops tournament poker from turning into team poker?

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What about backing/endorsement deals makes tournament poker conducive to team poker? There is no incentive to help members of your "team" out whatseoever, backer or sponsor.

Re: What % of major tourney players are backed by sheets/bax?
 

Barry g backs a lot of people I think.

I would be willing to bet (not literally) that Bax/sheets dont have the most people put in pca out of the backers, or at least that it might be close

Re: What % of major tourney players are backed by sheets/bax?
 

shaniac,

What's the % of a field a backer has that starts to give you the heebie-jeebies?

Re: What % of major tourney players are backed by sheets/bax?
 

A,

Whoa, really? There are individual backers out there w/ more horses than sheets? Damn.

Re: What % of major tourney players are backed by sheets/bax?
 

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with all of the different backing/endorsement deals what stops tournament poker from turning into team poker?

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What about backing/endorsement deals makes tournament poker conducive to team poker? There is no incentive to help members of your "team" out whatseoever, backer or sponsor.

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This really isn't correct. There are plenty of spots where the backer would benefit greatly from team play.

Re: What % of major tourney players are backed by sheets/bax?
 

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shaniac,

What's the % of a field a backer has that starts to give you the heebie-jeebies?

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Again, unless the backer somehow designs his stable to play as a team, it seems irrelevant to me.

If I found out that a backer was offering profit-sharing or another type of incentive to advance the "team's" interest, then I would insatntly have the heebie-jeebies even if they only had 2 horses in the event.

Re: What % of major tourney players are backed by sheets/bax?
 

shaniac,

"There is no incentive to help members of your "team" out whatseoever"

Not if everything's on the up and up, there isn't.

Also, FWIW, I know a handful of people backed by sheets and all of them have said there's not even the slightest hint of any shadiness regarding what to do when playing against other backees or sheets or bax. However, the case could easily be different w/ other backers.

Re: What % of major tourney players are backed by sheets/bax?
 

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with all of the different backing/endorsement deals what stops tournament poker from turning into team poker?

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What about backing/endorsement deals makes tournament poker conducive to team poker? There is no incentive to help members of your "team" out whatseoever, backer or sponsor.

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This really isn't correct. There are plenty of spots where the backer would benefit greatly from team play.

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And how does the horse benefit? If the backer gives intstructions to his horses to play a certain way or alter his play against other horses, then that's cheating, and I don't approve. But I don't know of any backer who employs his stable in an effort to collude. Except maybe on that show Tilt.

Re: What % of major tourney players are backed by sheets/bax?
 

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shaniac,

"There is no incentive to help members of your "team" out whatseoever"

Not if everything's on the up and up, there isn't.

Also, FWIW, I know a handful of people backed by sheets and all of them have said there's not even the slightest hint of any shadiness regarding what to do when playing against other backees or sheets or bax. However, the case could easily be different w/ other backers.

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lol, nobody is ever going to admit to that. Not saying that there ever is cheating, I dont think there is, but still.

Re: What % of major tourney players are backed by sheets/bax?
 

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shaniac,

"There is no incentive to help members of your "team" out whatseoever"

Not if everything's on the up and up, there isn't.

Also, FWIW, I know a handful of people backed by sheets and all of them have said there's not even the slightest hint of any shadiness regarding what to do when playing against other backees or sheets or bax. However, the case could easily be different w/ other backers.

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lol, nobody is ever going to admit to that. Not saying that there ever is cheating, I dont think there is, but still.

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So then, we are confusing issues. There is no issue with a backer putting in many horses into an event as long as the backer doesn't give instructions for how his horses should play against each other and/or offer incentives based on the team's performance. And since no backer with a large stable would risk rumors of such practices getting out (it's quite plainly cheating), it doesn't seem to go on.

Re: What % of major tourney players are backed by sheets/bax?
 

How come no one has ever offered to back me?

Re: What % of major tourney players are backed by sheets/bax?
 

shane,

One scary thing is, someone like you could be part of a cheating teamplay situation without even knowing it. Any backer with a ton of straight up honest horses could employ a handful of guys willing to chip dump in critical spots to other team members. The more horses a backer has in a tourney, the more of an opportunity there will be to take advantage of something like this. And like I said, the dumpee doesn't even have to be aware this is going on.

Re: What % of major tourney players are backed by sheets/bax?
 

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If you watched the Habib/Tuan Le v Maxfield final three at the WPT championship in 2005, you saw team poker in action. It wasn't very edifying to watch.

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This actually hints at the more subtle and pervasive issue, which is that friends will commonly feel compelled to softplay each other or help the other one out. I see signs of it and hear stories that indicate it goes on a lot. Sometimes, the sotfplaying is devoid of major financial interest (like maybe a few % traded). People are basically idiots, and I think a lot of players think it's somehow just the right thing to do and softplay each other without even trying to improve their overall EV. Absent a true plan, they usually just damage their own equity in the tournament, but it's still [censored] up and I wish people wouldn't do it.

Re: What % of major tourney players are backed by sheets/bax?
 

Is it common knowledge who is backed by them and if so can someone post a list? Or do they like to keep who they back on the downlow?

Re: What % of major tourney players are backed by sheets/bax?
 

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shane,

One scary thing is, someone like you could be part of a cheating teamplay situation without even knowing it. Any backer with a ton of straight up honest horses could employ a handful of guys willing to chip dump in critical spots to other team members. The more horses a backer has in a tourney, the more of an opportunity there will be to take advantage of something like this. And like I said, the dumpee doesn't even have to be aware this is going on.

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God damnit El Diablo, now everytime some schmuck donks off his chips to me in a tournament, I'm going to wonder if he was secretly employed by my backers to chip dump to me. SHEEEEEEESH. Ignorance was bliss.

Re: What % of major tourney players are backed by sheets/bax?
 

I personally don't understand how backing someone can be a profitable venture.

I mean for a good player, I understand the deal is typically the backer puts up 100% of the cash and the profits are split.

I think the level of play has been elevated significantly of the "average" player over the last 2 years that the edges that a good/great player can have over the field has been diminshed significantly.

Tell me does Sheets/Bax make big money doing this?

Re: What % of major tourney players are backed by sheets/bax?
 

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I personally understand how backing someone can be a profitable venture.

I mean for a good player, I understand the deal is typically the backer puts up 100% of the cash and the profits are split.

I think the level of play has been elevated significantly of the "average" player over the last 2 years that the edges that a good/great player can have over the field has been diminshed significantly.

Tell me does Sheets/Bax make big money doing this?

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I don't know how much money anyone makes, but why would you think it's -EV to back many +EV players in tournaments, getting back half their profits with makeup? If the backer has a big enough bankroll to reach the longterm, it's a freeroll, or at least that's how it's commonly regarded.

Re: What % of major tourney players are backed by sheets/bax?
 

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If you watched the Habib/Tuan Le v Maxfield final three at the WPT championship in 2005, you saw team poker in action. It wasn't very edifying to watch.

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This actually hints at the more subtle and pervasive issue, which is that friends will commonly feel compelled to softplay each other or help the other one out. I see signs of it and hear stories that indicate it goes on a lot. Sometimes, the sotfplaying is devoid of major financial interest (like maybe a few % traded). People are basically idiots, and I think a lot of players think it's somehow just the right thing to do and softplay each other without even trying to improve their overall EV. Absent a true plan, they usually just damage their own equity in the tournament, but it's still [censored] up and I wish people wouldn't do it.

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From what I understand it was more than friends soft playing.

I believe Habib only owned 50% of himself, but also owned 50% of Tuan Le.

Re: What % of major tourney players are backed by sheets/bax?
 

shane,

"God damnit El Diablo, now everytime some schmuck donks off his chips to me in a tournament, I'm going to wonder if he was secretly employed by my backers to chip dump to me. SHEEEEEEESH. Ignorance was bliss."

I think you're joking here, but I would actually be surprised if this was NOT going on w/ some backers.

Re: What % of major tourney players are backed by sheets/bax?
 

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I believe Habib only owned 50% of himself, but also owned 50% of Tuan Le.

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I think the percentages were different (pretty sure, at the very least, that Hassan owned a smaller piece of Tuan than 50%).

My point was that it doesn't even take heavy financial interest (their arrangement was well known and their appearance together at the final table quite flukey) to make softplaying a problem.

Also, is this THE Camel?

Re: What % of major tourney players are backed by sheets/bax?
 

f,

"I mean for a good player, I understand the deal is typically the backer puts up 100% of the cash and the profits are split."

In most deals, the tourney buyins (accruing over time) are paid back first ("makeup") before splitting the winnings.

Re: What % of major tourney players are backed by sheets/bax?
 

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shane,

"God damnit El Diablo, now everytime some schmuck donks off his chips to me in a tournament, I'm going to wonder if he was secretly employed by my backers to chip dump to me. SHEEEEEEESH. Ignorance was bliss."

I think you're joking here, but I would actually be surprised if this was NOT going on w/ some backers.

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I have no idea what the EV of putting players in specifically to dump to other players they may or may not encounter is, but even assuming it's huge, it still seem like way too much of a risk/hassle to pull off from a backers perspective.

I was only half-joking, I guess, because I hadn't really considered that this type of cheating exists, and now I probably will.

Re: What % of major tourney players are backed by sheets/bax?
 

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There is no incentive to help members of your "team" out whatseoever, backer or sponsor.

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i guess that just depends on the team's gameplan. i'm not saying that it does happen, just that it is possible...

Re: What % of major tourney players are backed by sheets/bax?
 

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There is no incentive to help members of your "team" out whatseoever, backer or sponsor.

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i guess that just depends on the team's gameplan. i'm not saying that it does happen, just that it is possible...

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Are you aware of any team that employs a "gameplan?" I've never heard it hinted at, but I think if you have, it's worthy of mention in this thread.

It seems like people are inventing/imagining a problem and then saying "isn't this a big problem?" I think you and El D are fantasizing a little bit, or, maybe, I'm out of touch with poker culture or with the clandestine plans of whatever crooked backers y'all know.

Re: What % of major tourney players are backed by sheets/bax?
 

shane,

I doubt it would be +EV to put players in specifically to dump chips. However, I think it would very +EV to have players in who might do some things differently against certain other players in various spots.

For a very simplified scenario, think of a big satellite. Someone w/ a lot of horses in that can easily help pull a few extra guys along.

This of course extends to many more complex tourney situations.

Given the level of cheating that occurs in poker, I would be shocked if this sort of stuff is not going on already.

Re: What % of major tourney players are backed by sheets/bax?
 

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I believe Habib only owned 50% of himself, but also owned 50% of Tuan Le.

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I think the percentages were different (pretty sure, at the very least, that Hassan owned a smaller piece of Tuan than 50%).

My point was that it doesn't even take heavy financial interest (their arrangement was well known and their appearance together at the final table quite flukey) to make softplaying a problem.

Also, is this THE Camel?

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The Camel from 'Stars, yes.

Re: What % of major tourney players are backed by sheets/bax?
 

R,

"Is it common knowledge who is backed by them and if so can someone post a list? Or do they like to keep who they back on the downlow?"

I wonder if they are willing to post a list. I'm sure we'll find out.

Re: What % of major tourney players are backed by sheets/bax?
 

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Given the level of cheating that occurs in poker, I would be shocked if this sort of stuff is not going on already.

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What level of cheating? Marked cards and stolen chips are on a totally different level than a backer-sponsored system designed to advance certain players in the tournament. Again, this would be the sort of cheating that would be so hard to conceal, that, contrary to you, I would be shocked if it was going on. I don't know all the various cliques in poker, but I still don't accept the premise.

Re: What % of major tourney players are backed by sheets/bax?
 

shaniac,

Are you saying you're unaware of the fact that there's a lot of cheating in poker in both cardrooms and online?

Also, earlier in this thread you said you had never even thought of this as a possible way of cheating, and now you are saying it's hard to conceal? Completely the opposite, man. Done even marginally intelligently, this would be incredibly hard to detect.

Re: What % of major tourney players are backed by sheets/bax?
 

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shaniac,

Are you saying you're unaware of the fact that there's a lot of cheating in poker in both cardrooms and online?

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In the abstract, yes I am aware. It's a question of how systemic it is. I'm asking for specifics.

Edit: It would hard to conceal, because poker players are yentes and word would spread. It would be impossible (as far as I figure) to be able to esnure a high enough level of secrecy from the people you employed to cheat to defray the risks of being exposed.

Re: What % of major tourney players are backed by sheets/bax?
 

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There is no incentive to help members of your "team" out whatseoever, backer or sponsor.

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i guess that just depends on the team's gameplan. i'm not saying that it does happen, just that it is possible...

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Are you aware of any team that employs a "gameplan?" I've never heard it hinted at, but I think if you have, it's worthy of mention in this thread.

It seems like people are inventing/imagining a problem and then saying "isn't this a big problem?" I think you and El D are fantasizing a little bit, or, maybe, I'm out of touch with poker culture or with the clandestine plans of whatever crooked backers y'all know.

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No. i know of no such teams and maybe i am just being cynical. but, i began to wonder about this situation when i was told that they implemented the frequent table redraws because of complaints of soft play.

Re: What % of major tourney players are backed by sheets/bax?
 

shaniac,

OK, here are two specifics. There are plenty more.

Lots of people softplay their friends.

Online lots of people share their holecards over IM.

We all know lots of people play against their friends differently. Oftentimes they have no financial stake in the outcome. Add in a financial tie and of course this is likely to occur.

Re: What % of major tourney players are backed by sheets/bax?
 

shane,

What % chance do you think there is that something like what I've described is currently going on in major tourneys?

Re: What % of major tourney players are backed by sheets/bax?
 

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shaniac,

OK, here are two specifics. There are plenty more.

Lots of people softplay their friends.

Online lots of people share their holecards over IM.

We all know lots of people play against their friends differently. Oftentimes they have no financial stake in the outcome. Add in a financial tie and of course this is likely to occur.

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Ugh, I've already mentioned the softplaying problem, and I know that there are tons of online games being colluded, but I've stated that this type of cheating is in a much different league than the type you are presenting as a threat in this thread.

Re: What % of major tourney players are backed by sheets/bax?
 

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shane,

What % chance do you think there is that something like what I've described is currently going on in major tourneys?

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0-10%? No [censored] idea, math is not my specialty. It seems quite far-fetched to me, but I can't tell if others in this thread have better information, or perhaps are less naive, than me.

Re: What % of major tourney players are backed by sheets/bax?
 

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shane,

What % chance do you think there is that something like what I've described is currently going on in major tourneys?

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I would guess 100%.

Edit: I am guessing cheating/colluding happens at least once in every major tournament, not that it's happening all the time in every tournament.