(PS $2/$4): Another AA in Big Pot
 

First orbit, so very little for reads.

I have seen the SB call down with A-high, when the flop was paired and the turn was two cold to him. He has also open-limped with KK, then capped the flop with his overpair.

MP has 3bet a Qxx flop with Q7 out of position.

PokerStars 2/4 Hold'em (6 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

Preflop: Hero is CO with A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP raises</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero 3-bets</font>, Button calls, SB calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, MP calls.

Flop: (13 SB) K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">SB bets</font>, MP calls, Hero calls, <font color="#CC3333">Button raises all-in</font>, SB calls, MP calls, <font color="#CC3333">Hero 3-bets</font>, SB calls, MP calls.

Turn: (12 BB) Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
SB checks, MP checks, Hero . . .

Scott

Re: (PS $2/$4): Another AA in Big Pot
 

Can you explain your flop play a bit? It seems like a clear raise, but instead you called and only 3-bet after the button raised.

Turn seems like a bet/fold.

Re: (PS $2/$4): Another AA in Big Pot
 

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Can you explain your flop play a bit? It seems like a clear raise, but instead you called and only 3-bet after the button raised.

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I figured the button would raise his last $2 just about 100% of the time.

Also, bet-folding this turn is close to being the worst "advice" I have ever seen propagated on this board. I'm assuming it was a typo?

Scott

Re: (PS $2/$4): Another AA in Big Pot
 

No, it's not. Which part do you object to, the bet or the fold? I'll assume it's the fold otherwise you wouldn't have posted the question.

After review, I can see calling a raise given the size of the pot. You're certainly behind any thing that might you raise but you do have more outs than I first thought.

In the future, please don't ask for advice and then insult people who offer it.

Re: (PS $2/$4): Another AA in Big Pot
 

We're probably better off if you just refrain from replying to my hand posts. However, feel free to be belligerent instead, I could use another bull to butt heads with now that naphand is gone.

Scott

Re: (PS $2/$4): Another AA in Big Pot
 

Fair enough, please do likewise.

Re: (PS $2/$4): Another AA in Big Pot
 

[ QUOTE ]
Fair enough, please do likewise.

[/ QUOTE ]

Nah, it's obvious you could use the poker advice, so if you put up a good fight, I'll help you out with poker as a show of respect.

Scott

Re: (PS $2/$4): Another AA in Big Pot
 

Unless Im missing something, seems like an easy b/c. Youre ahead often and if you get raised you have enough outs to continue.

Re: (PS $2/$4): Another AA in Big Pot
 

I'll consider that a gentlemen's handshake, then and put a little more thought into my next post.

Re: (PS $2/$4): Another AA in Big Pot
 

[ QUOTE ]
I'll consider that a gentlemen's handshake, then and put a little more thought into my next post.

[/ QUOTE ]

While I always appreciate deeper thought on the forum, I also always appreciate a good spat.

Scott

Re: (PS $2/$4): Another AA in Big Pot
 

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Youre ahead often

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This is the part that has me debating my play. I do not think I'm ahead often. I think I'm ahead maybe 25-40%.

Scott

Re: (PS $2/$4): Another AA in Big Pot
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Fair enough, please do likewise.

[/ QUOTE ]

Nah, it's obvious you could use the poker advice, so if you put up a good fight, I'll help you out with poker as a show of respect.

Scott

[/ QUOTE ]
Raise the flop. Bet/call the turn.

Re: (PS $2/$4): Another AA in Big Pot
 

[ QUOTE ]
Raise the flop. Bet/call the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: (PS $2/$4): Another AA in Big Pot
 

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Raise the flop.

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I strongly disagree with that line. Raising offers zero protection, so it has to be for straight value. In which case, 3betting the button is vastly superior. I am only losing EV if the button fails to raise, and with just 2 SB left in a 16 SB pot, I think he's going all-in with pretty much anything.

Scott

Re: (PS $2/$4): Another AA in Big Pot
 

For those of you so clearly advocating a turn bet, what confluence of opponents' hands are you expecting? How often do you think I am ahead? How many outs are you giving me when behind?

Scott

Re: (PS $2/$4): Another AA in Big Pot
 

I don't understand why you think you knew that button was going to raise the flop.

MP has anything. QJ, AQ, KJ, random aces hands, clubs, etc. You beat all of these hands.

SB's flop donk is likely a weak pair or a draw - none of which improved on the turn unless he hit two pair with KQ, QT, or had clubs that straightened up.

Button is all-in.

You have AA on a K8T,Q board and you have two opponents. One raised preflop in fairly late position and just called a ton of bets on the flop, which you should expect him to do with a very wide range of hands. The other player called a million bets in the small blind like a huge fish and donked into you on the K8T flop and decided his hand was only good enough to go into call-down mode after he was raised only once - by an all-in player.

So you can say you're ahead 25% of the time or some other ridiculous amount of the time, you can get angry at someone for trying to give you advice and missing that you had a gutshot, you can "strongly disagree," etc., or you can play like a sane human being and raise the flop the first time because you don't have superhuman powers that tell you button will conveniently allow you to put more bets in on the flop. Then, you can do some fairly rudimentary hand reading to make the decision to value bet the turn.

Sorry if anything I have said above is rude, but you are being passive-aggressive, and you're making me tilt 5 minutes before I go home from work.

Re: (PS $2/$4): Another AA in Big Pot
 

[ QUOTE ]
I don't understand why you think you knew that button was going to raise the flop.

MP has anything. QJ, AQ, KJ, random aces hands, clubs, etc. You beat all of these hands.

SB's flop donk is likely a weak pair or a draw - none of which improved on the turn unless he hit two pair with KQ, QT, or had clubs that straightened up.

Button is all-in.

You have AA on a K8T,Q board and you have two opponents. One raised preflop in fairly late position and just called a ton of bets on the flop, which you should expect him to do with a very wide range of hands. The other player called a million bets in the small blind like a huge fish and donked into you on the K8T flop and decided his hand was only good enough to go into call-down mode after he was raised only once - by an all-in player.

So you can say you're ahead 25% of the time or some other ridiculous amount of the time, you can get angry at someone for trying to give you advice and missing that you had a gutshot, you can "strongly disagree," etc., or you can play like a sane human being and raise the flop the first time because you don't have superhuman powers that tell you button will conveniently allow you to put more bets in on the flop. Then, you can do some fairly rudimentary hand reading to make the decision to value bet the turn.

Sorry if anything I have said above is rude, but you are being passive-aggressive, and you're making me tilt 5 minutes before I go home from work.

[/ QUOTE ]

Haha, except for putting you on tilt, this is the type of reply I was trying to elicit. Thank you. I still maintain that calling the flop bet is correct--the button has to go all-in less than 50% of the time for raising to be superior (even less if he would fold to my raise), and I think your average Joe pushes pretty close to 100%.

However, you are making a good argument for there being value in a turn bet.

Oh, and it wasn't just the gutshot that kevin missed, I had two likely outs to top set and a lot of outs to counterfeit two pair as well.

Scott

Re: (PS $2/$4): Another AA in Big Pot
 

I do not think I can add anything more to milesdyson's post in terms of analysis, his thinking is spot on. Why are you always trying to be oh-so-clever at this level?

Not betting this Turn would be weak in the extreme, I cannot comprehend not betting and allowing a bunch of draws a free card. If raised you can obviously call. Yes it is an unwelcome card but grow some and bet until you are told to stop.

I do not agree that button will push the Flop reliably enough for you to try this play, but if you play that way and are happy with it, fine.

With Button all-in it is even more important you bet to get value from the other two and build a side pot in the event Button sucks. Not that I am particularly worried about button, but your value comes from betting this Turn, not staining your underwear and checking, gad!


PS
Was this some kind of semi-bluff ;o)

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my posts generally have a lot of table reads...(from your e-mail)

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[ QUOTE ]
First orbit, so very little for reads...(from your post)

[/ QUOTE ]

Wanker! (as we like to say in the UK)

Re: (PS $2/$4): Another AA in Big Pot
 

Reasonable minds can disagree on the flop play. If nothing else you kept the pot small with 1 pair, and if it looks safe on the turn you can pump it on the big bet street. Although you decided to call then 3 bet the flop which makes no sense, if you want to pump it just raise right away. Because all you have done now is given everyone odds to call down with bottom pair or gutshots or other weird hands. NOT GOOD WITH JUST 1 PAIR.

But for the love of God, bet the turn when they check to you!!!!!! Letting someone hit something to beat you there is devasting in a big pot, and if you lose 2 turn bets and 1 river bet then you shrug it off and move on, knowing you did everything you could to protect your hand.

Another advantage of betting the turn, is if you get really scared on the river, u can check and show it down for free. Even though I still bet thr river with the majority of the turn cards

Re: (PS $2/$4): Another AA in Big Pot
 

[ QUOTE ]
PS
Was this some kind of semi-bluff ;o) [ QUOTE ]
my posts generally have a lot of table reads...(from your e-mail)

[/ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ]
First orbit, so very little for reads...(from your post)

[/ QUOTE ] Wanker! (as we like to say in the UK)

[/ QUOTE ]

Oh! Woe! Woe! What dire straits thou must be enduring to have no recourse but misquoting private communications. But, fear not! As I staked you before, I shall help you now. Mine heart cracks and crumbles, even as a mountain in a tempest, at the sad plight that hath struck low my friend.

Return to India! Cleanse thy soul! And upon thy return, seek me out in the halls of Valhalla, and I shall offer thee nectar to supple that thou may grow strong again.

Pommie bird! (as we free people like to say outside the UK)

Scott

Re: (PS $2/$4): Another AA in Big Pot
 

I don't know what's going on with this thread, but this is a pretty obvious and clear cut flop raise.

Re: (PS $2/$4): Another AA in Big Pot
 

I don't understand why he's catching so much flak for a flop c/3bet.

[ QUOTE ]
Although you decided to call then 3 bet the flop which makes no sense, if you want to pump it just raise right away. Because all you have done now is given everyone odds to call down with bottom pair or gutshots or other weird hands. NOT GOOD WITH JUST 1 PAIR.

[/ QUOTE ]

The play makes perfect sense give the fact that he is VERY confident that the guy is pushing his last 2 sbs in. You can debate this assertion if you want. Now he's not calling the flop with the intention of raising a safe turn as if he's behind...he knows he's ahead and he's trying to ram and jam as many bets as possible into the pot- IF he's sure the guy's going to raise his last 2 sbs into the pot it seems like a call 3 bet is a great way to get as much in as possible. If hero raises immediately and we are sure that button is pushing his last 2 sbs in whether we raise or not we are effectively offering 19:1 to MP and SB expecting 20:1 with no fear of hero 3 betting. If we call SB and MP are getting 18:1 immediate pot odds expecting 20:1 by the time MP and hero call - actually worse immediate pot odds than if we'd raised to begin with - but we get to 3 bet them forcing more money into the pot when we've got the best of it. My only real point is that NOT raising here then 3 betting does not somehow give SB and MP better odds on calling down they're getting worse odds because we are forcing them to pay more for their 4-5 outers.

If button does not push you do miss out on the raises value but it's not like raising is pushing out SB or MP anyways. They have both already put one sb into the pot and are not folding for 1 more back to them...you can NOT protect your hand here against those gut shots and 2 pair/trips draws.

Now IMO without a read on button we can't say 100% of the time he's putting his last 2 sbs in but I DO believe he is putting in the last 2 a large percentage of the time as he is likely to have some sort of draw/pair here so I like calling with the intention of 3 betting. We may even see sb 3 bet the all-in raise thinking his AK or KQ is good against 2 callers allowing us to cap with MP sandwiched between.