Push Pre-Flop with Aces?
 

I just started playing live NL 200 1/2 blinds and I've noticed that my raises evolved from 4 x blind +1 for each limper up to 8 x blind + one for each limper in the hopes of weeding out the stragglers. It seems like someone calls me no matter what. With a few callers and myself in late position, how wrong would I be to push all in with aces or kings?
I think I'd get at least one caller every other time. Opinions?

Re: Push Pre-Flop with Aces?
 

I've never tried this with KK, but had great success doing this with AA...this is not to say I haven't suffered the odd suckout or 2 but I've won some nice fat pots with someone raising UTG 20 or 25, 3-5 callers then I reraise AI. This is in the LA 3/5 $200 where there will almost always be one caller.

Re: Push Pre-Flop with Aces?
 

This might seem like an unreasonable request, but we may need a bit more pertinent info to answer your question. Really, this is too general to answer strategically.

It comes down to numerous factors:
A) Your stack size?
B) Stack size average of others at the table, including whether or not there are any shortstacks;
C) Are there players showing a tendency to call it off preflop with AK or JJ?
D) Do you plan to play with the same group of people? If so, do this 3 or 4 times and show down your hand, and it will stop working, as your preflop "random" all in will become transparent.

As a general answer to your question, if you had a stack of $200 in 1-2 in a call station, poorly played game, and thought you could get calls 50% of the time by simply moving in over the top of dead money, then it would be correct to do it.

Re: Push Pre-Flop with Aces?
 

In this case, I'd measure success solely on the basis of whether you get the maximum possible amount of money in the pot pre-flop, not whether someone occasionally sucks out on you (which they will with statistically predictable frequency).

Re: Push Pre-Flop with Aces?
 

i do this if i'm playing:

a. someone who will maybe call me or

b. someone that is either really good or crazy and i have a tough time playing with after the flop

last time i did it, it was both a and b in a 1/2 nl game. i'd just one a big pot and still had a pile of chips in front of me. ab guy raises UTG to 16 or so, and i look down at AA. i say all-in, and it folds around to him. he calls before i can even get my chips counted for what ends up being 274 more w/TT. we ran it twice, and he hit a T on the first one, so we ended up chopping b/c i run bad.

Re: Push Pre-Flop with Aces?
 

It really really depends on the game.

In the short term, if you are going to get the calls, then yes push it, and frankly I might widen my range a bit too when doing this from the button. How wide that range is would depend on the tightness of the table.

The problem becomes in how the game will change because you are pushing. If you do it once in a session, no big deal, but do it several times in a session, big deal.

That type of shear aggression will often change the character of the game. The game will either get super tight down right nitty with people looking to trap you, or the table explodes into a super LAG game.

My general mode is to mix it up, RR, pushing and flat calling, but I haven't played a 1/2 game in over a year so I am not sure how well that would work.

Re: Push Pre-Flop with Aces?
 

if you think there's a very good chance you'll get called and your stack size / pot size is such that you're getting it all in on the flop, I think it's a great way to play it.

I did this once in a 1/2 game with about 140. UTG makes it 15, four cold callers, I push in the SB. one caller for 100 - he had JTo.

Re: Push Pre-Flop with Aces?
 

Thanks, good analysis. I meant mostly me around 50-100 BB--nothing over, then I wouldn't try it. Sure, with AK and JJ from what I've seen. Yeah, you're right there are some regulars in that game.

Re: Push Pre-Flop with Aces?
 

Wow, I thought they only ran it twice on high stakes poker (I'm sort of being serious). I guess it would apply for most cash games.

Re: Push Pre-Flop with Aces?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Wow, I thought they only ran it twice on high stakes poker (I'm sort of being serious). I guess it would apply for most cash games.

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually no. Most rooms will not let players do business at the table unless it is at their nose bleed limits. Some rooms are rather flexible, others are not.

As an example, twice I have done business in the Wynn 2/5 game, but ask any dealer/floor there if they allow it and they will all say no. But they also know that in an uncapped game, that the limits do not always matter.

Re: Push Pre-Flop with Aces?
 

Dumb question, but why the hell would you want to run it twice with aces allin pf???

Re: Push Pre-Flop with Aces?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Dumb question, but why the hell would you want to run it twice with aces allin pf???

[/ QUOTE ]

b/c i still have around a 64% chance of winning a $580 pot, and only a 4% chance of going broke. if i lost the pot, i would have had to leave b/c i didn't have any more money on me. why would you be so opposed?

edit: this was a local game, so they let players do that kind of stuff.

Re: Push Pre-Flop with Aces?
 

[ QUOTE ]
i do this if i'm playing:

a. someone who will maybe call me or

b. someone that is either really good or crazy and i have a tough time playing with after the flop

last time i did it, it was both a and b in a 1/2 nl game. i'd just one a big pot and still had a pile of chips in front of me. ab guy raises UTG to 16 or so, and i look down at AA. i say all-in, and it folds around to him. he calls before i can even get my chips counted for what ends up being 274 more w/TT. we ran it twice, and he hit a T on the first one, so we ended up chopping b/c i run bad.

[/ QUOTE ]

where do they let you waste time by running it twice in a 1/2 game?

Re: Push Pre-Flop with Aces?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Dumb question, but why the hell would you want to run it twice with aces allin pf???

[/ QUOTE ]

No reason from a math stand point, and one of the reasons why you almost never see it at low limits. The vast majority of people doing business are doing it on the flop or turn.

There are two good reasons (IMO) to run it... First it allows players that are scared money or playing too high for their bankroll/lifestyle (which is many) to help avoid variance or at least lessen the impact of it on them.

Second, to keep the other players happy. There is no sense in pissing off a fish at the table and having them leave the game because you think it is silly to run it when they only have 2-6 outs.

I was asked by a major fish in a private game once to run it PF my AA vs his KK. I agreed to run it three times, he was happy and he re-bought so I was happy too.

Re: Push Pre-Flop with Aces?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Dumb question, but why the hell would you want to run it twice with aces allin pf???

[/ QUOTE ]

Running it twice is always for the same reason: reducing variance.

Re: Push Pre-Flop with Aces?
 

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where do they let you waste time by running it twice in a 1/2 game?

[/ QUOTE ]

If the dealer knows anything, it doesn't that much more time.
1. Don't center the all-in bets (I see dealers center the capped turn action when the board is KQJT rainbow and act surprised when they have to split the pot 3 ways). If the pot is split, the two just take that back and all you have to split is what is in the center. Not that much time.
2. How long does it take to put out two boards?

Re: Push Pre-Flop with Aces?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Dumb question, but why the hell would you want to run it twice with aces allin pf???

[/ QUOTE ]

Running it twice is always for the same reason: reducing variance.

[/ QUOTE ]

I understand the concept, just don't understand why anyone would do it with AA v. xx hands... From the times I've seen people do it (on HSP or VERY occasionally live, etc...) it's been with AK v. 77 or KK v. Ax NFD types...

It's fine if you just didnt have any rebuy money with you and would've had to leave, but in general, if you're looking for a "lower variance", you shouldn't be playing that particular limit IMO

Re: Push Pre-Flop with Aces?
 

[ QUOTE ]
It's fine if you just didnt have any rebuy money with you and would've had to leave, but in general, if you're looking for a "lower variance", you shouldn't be playing that particular limit IMO

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noted

Re: Push Pre-Flop with Aces?
 

[ QUOTE ]

I understand the concept, just don't understand why anyone would do it with AA v. xx hands...

[/ QUOTE ]

Then clearly you dont understand it.

And in HSP IIRC Farha vs. Greenstein AA vs. KK, Farha asked if Barry wants to run it twice.

Re: Push Pre-Flop with Aces?
 

Actually, Farha had KK and Greenstein had aces