No such thing as a random card/number generator
 

The show was on Discovery Channel and was about Gaming/Las Vegas.

THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS A RANDOM CARD/NUMBER GENERATOR!

PROVEN BY NEVADA GAMING COMMISSION-

TO GENERATE "RANDOM", someone has to write a program -
ALL PROGRAMS CAN BE "BROKE".

Ask the FORMER Nevada Gaming Enforcement Agent, working in slots FOR THE GAMING COMMISION, who "broke" the slot code in Nevada, took his "insite" to the EAST COAST, and "ginned" A MAJOR SLOT MACHINE!

Easy money!.

The Nevada agent lost his Nevada Gaming License and went straight to jail!

TELL THE TRUTH - ONLINE POKER IS A PROGRAM!

ALL PROGRAMS HAVE TO BE WRITTEN/CODED AND CAN BE "BROKE".

NOW WONDER if one is "MANIPULATED" while playing ON LINE POKER.


Kathy [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

Re: No such thing as a random card/number generator
 

FINALLY some CONCLUSIVE PROOF that online POKER is RIGGED once AND FOR all!!

thank YOU KATHY for opening MY eyes

Re: No such thing as a random card/number generator
 

Don't online algorithms use things such as temperature etc. to make them as random as possible.

Re: No such thing as a random card/number generator
 

On-line software use in-puts to start the RNG ---
Like-- Line spike amps, time of day, temp., rotation angle of the earth. If you can guess what they are using you can get the flop, turn and river cards.

Re: No such thing as a random card/number generator
 

You are right in that random number generators (RNGs) are programs, so you can argue that they are not 'truly' random.

The best RNGs use outside influences such as network delays, interrupt timings etc (temperature could be used, but I've never head of this) which are closer to 'truly' random to randomize the numbers generated more.

So, the quality of generator does play a large part in how random things seem, and a poor RNG can be cracked (it has been before).

I think you'll find that that the slot machine cracked relates to one particular variety, and does not mean that all slot machines can be cracked in a similar fashion.

Of course, you can add the usual things about real shuffles not being truly random etc.

Re: No such thing as a random card/number generator
 

if only we had someone that could develop us a pattern mapper!

[img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Re: No such thing as a random card/number generator
 

Of course there is such a thing as a real random number generator. It's just not very feasable to use for a large poker site. There are many implementations, either you can use a radioactive substance and measure the time between discharges (completely unpreditable), or you can a CCD chip held in complete darkness (see http://www.lavarnd.org/ ).

Of course, it's been shown that a pseudorandom number generator that is seeded by a true random number is, for all practical purposes, just as good as a real random number generator.

Re: No such thing as a random card/number generator
 

Talk to these guys [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

http://www.cigital.com/papers/downlo...r_gambling.php

Note: from September, 1999 (so old, and probably not current)

Re: No such thing as a random card/number generator
 

[ QUOTE ]
Of course there is such a thing as a real random number generator.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sorry, I should have been more specific. In software, there is not such thing as a 'true' random number generator.

The best ones do use outside inputs, which as you point out, makes them much more random.

Re: No such thing as a random card/number generator
 

[ QUOTE ]
TO GENERATE "RANDOM", someone has to write a program

[/ QUOTE ]
This is actually not true. While one can generate pseudo-random numbers using software, there also exist hardware random number generators.

Here is an offering from Intel, for example:
http://www.intel.com/design/software...m/security.htm

You can find more info here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hardwar...mber_generator

Re: No such thing as a random card/number generator
 

Does anyone know whether online sites use a hardware based solution similar to those above?

It seems like there is enough random data available to them (e.g., network delays, players reaction times in making decisions) to seed a generator with.

Re: No such thing as a random card/number generator
 

It is arguable that nothing in the universe is random.

Anything can be predicted with complete information of the circumstances leading up to the event.

The shuffles in online poker are closer to being truly random than almost anything you observe in every day life.

Re: No such thing as a random card/number generator
 

[ QUOTE ]
It is arguable that nothing in the universe is random.

Anything can be predicted with complete information of the circumstances leading up to the event.

The shuffles in online poker are closer to being truly random than almost anything you observe in every day life.

[/ QUOTE ]

Quantum mechanics just called, they'd like to talk to you on the issue of a completely determanistic universe.

Re: No such thing as a random card/number generator
 

HELLO kathy,

JUST because there's NO such THING AS a truly random NUMBER GENERATOR, doesn't MEAN THAT an RNG would be VERY EASY to CRACK. Furthermore, JUST because someone HAS FIGURED out how TO PREDICT cards AT a POKER SITE, doesn't MEAN THE games WILL NO longer BE PROFITABLE. ANYONE who is ABLE to PREDICT cards WOULD KEEP it a secret AS long AS POSSIBLE in ORDER TO MAKE much monies FOR themself.

As long AS THERE are fish, THERE WILL be good GAMES ONLINE.

Re: No such thing as a random card/number generator
 

[ QUOTE ]
The show was on Discovery Channel and was about Gaming/Las Vegas.

THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS A RANDOM CARD/NUMBER GENERATOR!

PROVEN BY NEVADA GAMING COMMISSION-

TO GENERATE "RANDOM", someone has to write a program -
ALL PROGRAMS CAN BE "BROKE".

Ask the FORMER Nevada Gaming Enforcement Agent, working in slots FOR THE GAMING COMMISION, who "broke" the slot code in Nevada, took his "insite" to the EAST COAST, and "ginned" A MAJOR SLOT MACHINE!

Easy money!.

The Nevada agent lost his Nevada Gaming License and went straight to jail!

TELL THE TRUTH - ONLINE POKER IS A PROGRAM!

ALL PROGRAMS HAVE TO BE WRITTEN/CODED AND CAN BE "BROKE".

NOW WONDER if one is "MANIPULATED" while playing ON LINE POKER.


Kathy [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

4 posts... thats about right

Re: No such thing as a random card/number generator
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The show was on Discovery Channel and was about Gaming/Las Vegas.

THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS A RANDOM CARD/NUMBER GENERATOR!

PROVEN BY NEVADA GAMING COMMISSION-

TO GENERATE "RANDOM", someone has to write a program -
ALL PROGRAMS CAN BE "BROKE".

Ask the FORMER Nevada Gaming Enforcement Agent, working in slots FOR THE GAMING COMMISION, who "broke" the slot code in Nevada, took his "insite" to the EAST COAST, and "ginned" A MAJOR SLOT MACHINE!

Easy money!.

The Nevada agent lost his Nevada Gaming License and went straight to jail!

TELL THE TRUTH - ONLINE POKER IS A PROGRAM!

ALL PROGRAMS HAVE TO BE WRITTEN/CODED AND CAN BE "BROKE".

NOW WONDER if one is "MANIPULATED" while playing ON LINE POKER.


Kathy [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

4 posts... thats about right

[/ QUOTE ]

Even for 4 posts this is bad. Each post is like this. Ugh.

Re: No such thing as a random card/number generator
 

[ QUOTE ]
Does anyone know whether online sites use a hardware based solution similar to those above?

[/ QUOTE ]
I don't think so. Paradise explains their random number generation pretty thoroughly and don't mention hardware RNGs. Neither do the pages explaining the RNGs on Party or Stars.

Re: No such thing as a random card/number generator
 

Thanks, I hadn't seen the paradise one before. I had looked through the party and stars pages.

[ QUOTE ]
At Paradise Poker, we chose to use a 31 bit random function (coming from a 2016 bit seed that has entropy constantly added to it - see the random number generation information below for more details), thereby decreasing the bias even further (by a factor of 65536), as well as shuffling the deck more than once. We found that shuffling twice removes 99% of the bias, and shuffling 3 times makes it pretty much immeasurable, then we decided to triple it for good measure and bump it up to 10 times to keep the marketing people happy. These two changes result in a shuffled deck with no detectable bias.

[/ QUOTE ]

This paragraph worries me a bit. I really don't like how they just decided to "triple it and bump it up 10 times". Having done a bit of computer security I know that implementing the wrong type of security 30 times, is no better than doing it once (i.e., fixing one security hole a bad way 30 times, is no better than just fixing it the right way once (esp., if there are still other holes)). It would be good if they provided a link to some mathematical proof that this is actually the case.

Also, it still seems like there would be some bias here (although insignificant and undetectable, I don't think it's zero), when it would be easy enough to get zero bias (using their 0-63 number generator example, how about just ignoring numbers 52 or over?).

It's good to see some inputs like network delay in their RNG.

So, I like their detail, but I think a lot of it is unnecessary 'show' for the user.

Re: No such thing as a random card/number generator
 

4 posts!

Maybe - Maybe Not!

Maybe a new ID -

Maybe - I've been around long enough to have played poker with Stu Ungar, Ray Zee, Johnny Moss, Tuna Lund, Johnny Chan. Garland Walters, and yes Skalansky and Mason, although Mason never plays very high.

Much detail lacking both in your summation and my equation.

There is no such thing as a random card/number generator for online poker sites.

Someone has to write the program.

Continue on debating - but READ some of the responses.

Someone else MIGHT know something.

As long as there are "people looking to give there money away", there will be poker, poker tournaments, both online and in brick and mortar.


Kathy [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Re: No such thing as a random card/number generator
 

i LOST the ABILITY to CONTORL the VOLMUME and FLUCTATIONS of my TYPING

Re: No such thing as a random card/number generator
 

[ QUOTE ]
Quantum mechanics just called, they'd like to talk to you on the issue of a completely determanistic universe.

[/ QUOTE ]
There are some deterministic interpretations of QM (e.g., Many-Worlds).

Re: No such thing as a random card/number generator
 

Folks, this is why friends don't let friends post while drunk or stoned.

Re: No such thing as a random card/number generator *DELETED*
 

Post deleted by Ryan Beal

Re: No such thing as a random card/number generator
 

lock this [censored] up

Re: No such thing as a random card/number generator
 

[ QUOTE ]
4 posts!

Maybe - Maybe Not!

Maybe a new ID -

Maybe - I've been around long enough to have played poker with Stu Ungar, Ray Zee, Johnny Moss, Tuna Lund, Johnny Chan. Garland Walters, and yes Skalansky and Mason, although Mason never plays very high.

Much detail lacking both in your summation and my equation.

There is no such thing as a random card/number generator for online poker sites.

Someone has to write the program.

Continue on debating - but READ some of the responses.

Someone else MIGHT know something.

As long as there are "people looking to give there money away", there will be poker, poker tournaments, both online and in brick and mortar.


Kathy [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]
Kathy Liebert, welcome to the forum. I hope you don't do any keyword searches of your name. Suicide rates skyrocket during the holidays

Re: No such thing as a random card/number generator
 

Lets see Kathy you started 2 threads, 1 about cheaters at the Wynn and one about RNG's not being random. Paranoid much, try some aluminum foil on your head or a good shrink... Oh and give up poker its rigged....

Re: No such thing as a random card/number generator
 

Best THREAD ever. Do you SEE WHY?

Re: No such thing as a random card/number generator
 

[ QUOTE ]
Lets see Kathy you started 2 threads, 1 about cheaters at the Wynn and one about RNG's not being random. Paranoid much, try some aluminum foil on your head or a good shrink... Oh and give up poker its rigged....

[/ QUOTE ]


GREAT OBSERVATION!

More names for you to digest - I might HAVE (or have not) PLAYED WITH/AGAINST: Slim, Puggy, O'Neal, Seymour, Phil, Jack, Betty, along with several DEAD WORLD SERIES CHAMPS.

Not to mention The Professor, his sister, and several others of the "new" generation.

I MIGHT be paranoid, or I MIGHT KNOW WHAT COLLUSION AND SELF SERVING MANIPULATORS (aren't we all) ARE!

Who owns Full Tilt - Ultimate Bet, etc.

Are those sites really on the up and up?

Who makes the REAL money? The player or the site?

What recourse as a player do you have if something/anything goes wrong?

Live life with blinders on, it is safe!

Our government wouldn't lie to us!

Kathy [img]/images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img]

Re: No such thing as a random card/number generator
 

Just stop while you're behind.

Re: No such thing as a random card/number generator
 

[ QUOTE ]

Are those sites really on the up and up?


[/ QUOTE ]

Can you provide proof or just wild speculation...
did someone river you one too many times on-line.
[ QUOTE ]

Who makes the REAL money? The player or the site?


[/ QUOTE ]

Well for someone who drops as many names as you do, I'm surprised that the house makes money is a revelation to you and that the house makes more than most players do.

[ QUOTE ]

What recourse as a player do you have if something/anything goes wrong?


[/ QUOTE ]

Stop playing there... If enough people do that they go broke.

Re: No such thing as a random card/number generator
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Lets see Kathy you started 2 threads, 1 about cheaters at the Wynn and one about RNG's not being random. Paranoid much, try some aluminum foil on your head or a good shrink... Oh and give up poker its rigged....

[/ QUOTE ]


GREAT OBSERVATION!

More names for you to digest - I might HAVE (or have not) PLAYED WITH/AGAINST: Slim, Puggy, O'Neal, Seymour, Phil, Jack, Betty, along with several DEAD WORLD SERIES CHAMPS.

Not to mention The Professor, his sister, and several others of the "new" generation.

I MIGHT be paranoid, or I MIGHT KNOW WHAT COLLUSION AND SELF SERVING MANIPULATORS (aren't we all) ARE!

Who owns Full Tilt - Ultimate Bet, etc.

Are those sites really on the up and up?

Who makes the REAL money? The player or the site?

What recourse as a player do you have if something/anything goes wrong?

Live life with blinders on, it is safe!

Our government wouldn't lie to us!

Kathy [img]/images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

None of this makes you more credible, but it DOES bolster the "doddering old bat that understands nothing about technology" line, so you got that going for ya.

Re: No such thing as a random card/number generator
 

I don't play on line.

I leave brick and mortar games where I recognize collusion.

I don't understand why the "house" allows collusion.

I don't understand why someone would defend playing on the internet, when it has been proven the internet involves collusion, with no recourse for the players.

Sorry you don't know about the letters that have been sent to players on the internet, who were "scammed".

I am old!

I am done teaching ya!

It is ok to put back what one has learned from playing!

Kathy [img]/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img]

Re: No such thing as a random card/number generator
 

lol @ lederer & duke being part of the new generation.

Kathy, I make lots of money online and don't collude. I've never been at the table with people who I've suspected to collude. That's why I play online. From what I've heard alot of the RNGs use mouse movements and timing from the players to help in the randomization process. If this is the case, then it's only possible (with ridiculously sophisticated hacking skills) to find out what card is coming AFTER the last person has acted, at which point it's too late.

Re: No such thing as a random card/number generator
 

Kathy,

I connected to this thread because you responded to a thread regarding must moves at the Wynn on the B&M forum. Overuse of must moves is one of my favorite rants and it usually grabs my attention among these 57 odd forums.

Anyway, years ago I played Planet Poker when it was the only online game in town. Turns out they used a single seed into their RNG based on an offset from the atomic clock. In addition, their shuffling algorithm was very shoddy and published online. A computer security company saw this and quickly created software to show every darn card your opponents held (after about a ten minute tune up). They actually had a clip that made it to CNN and at one point contacted me for my input (as to whether I thought I was cheated).

Turns out there were people cheating and PP refunded me about $340.

Today the shuffling algorithms are much better and the seeds into the RNGs are far more complex (essentially based on user entropy, e.g. where in a 50x100 pixel box you click call/fold/raise) . But that doesn't mean you don't have anything to worry about.

For a well thought through article regarding online problems read former 2+2 author Ed Miller aka the NPA's blog.

~ Rick

Re: No such thing as a random card/number generator
 

Kathy,

You know those people in white coats who take care of you in your special house? Listen to what they say, they know what's best for you. Make sure you take all the pills they tell you to take. Ok?

And don't throw cats at people, that's not nice.

Re: No such thing as a random card/number generator
 

I can't speak for poker sites' RNG, but I know in the slot industry (I work for WMS, and prior to that worked for IGT), RNGs can be figured out - BUT, if you can get that far, then there are also drastically easier ways to compromise a given machine (such as replacing an EEPROM chip or something).

My point is, with technology in it's current state, the RNGs are virtually the least vulnerable security risk in the process.

Also, not all RNGs are software-based. You can use geiger counters, or even atmospheric noise.

Re: No such thing as a random card/number generator
 

For a well thought through article regarding online problems read former 2+2 author Ed Miller aka the NPA's blog.


Nice Article

Maybe someone else might take the time to check it out?

How many spyware sites are "blocked" to your computer?

When is the last time you checked?

Kathy [img]/images/graemlins/ooo.gif[/img]

Re: No such thing as a random card/number generator
 

Heres the problem i have. The guy in vegas didn't crack the slot codes. He simply went into the slots and made so when he did a certain series of bets that the jackpot would hit.

Re: No such thing as a random card/number generator
 

zeejustin figured out how to manipulate it.

Re: No such thing as a random card/number generator
 

[ QUOTE ]


For a well thought through article regarding online problems read former 2+2 author Ed Miller aka the NPA's blog.


Nice Article

Maybe someone else might take the time to check it out?

How many spyware sites are "blocked" to your computer?

When is the last time you checked?

Kathy [img]/images/graemlins/ooo.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

Kathy,

lol. That means laughing out loud. I'm not actually laughing out loud, or even laughing for that matter, but lol.