just shoot me now
 

15 game on full tilt. i mention site specifically because it seems to be hyperaggro...not always check raising, but donking and crap...not your classic fish for sure.

HH converter for FT btw?

3 handed...SB seems on laggy side...BB is fairlt new and i dont have much data on him.

i raise OTB with Q6 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

both call.

flop is

T [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]6 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]5 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

check to me, i bet, both call

turn is T [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

sb checks, BB donks, i raise, SB folds, BB calls.

river is 5 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

BB donks.

Re: just shoot me now
 

*cross fingers* call [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: just shoot me now
 

why not just fold preflop?

Re: just shoot me now
 

3 handed Q6s is fine

Re: just shoot me now
 

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why not just fold preflop?

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bottom of my range (like i fold Q5s).

Re: just shoot me now
 

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why not just fold preflop?

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bottom of my range (like i fold Q5s).

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i guess i'm just passing here when i don't know anything about BB.

Re: just shoot me now
 

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3 handed Q6s is fine

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i don't think it is when we don't know anything about the BB.

Re: just shoot me now
 

Seems fine. Call the river.

Re: just shoot me now
 

It looks a lot like a 5 for a lot of FT players IMO. You'll win it better than 1 in 10 however.

Re: just shoot me now
 

these FT players drive me batty. seems like the epicenter of the new donking epidemic.

Re: just shoot me now
 

[ QUOTE ]
these FT players drive me batty. seems like the epicenter of the new donking epidemic.

[/ QUOTE ]

I could have sworn that you were once quoted as saying "I want to be the donk-bettor." Am I wrong?

Re: just shoot me now
 

[ QUOTE ]
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these FT players drive me batty. seems like the epicenter of the new donking epidemic.

[/ QUOTE ]

I could have sworn that you were once quoted as saying "I want to be the donk-bettor." Am I wrong?

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probably wrong....i think? [img]/images/graemlins/shocked.gif[/img]

Re: just shoot me now
 

Call, nice hand. Folding preflop strikes me as crazy 3 handed.

-DeathDonkey

Re: just shoot me now
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
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these FT players drive me batty. seems like the epicenter of the new donking epidemic.

[/ QUOTE ]

I could have sworn that you were once quoted as saying "I want to be the donk-bettor." Am I wrong?

[/ QUOTE ]

probably wrong....i think? [img]/images/graemlins/shocked.gif[/img]

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OK. I cannot say for certain it was you. No big deal.

Re: just shoot me now
 

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Call, nice hand. Folding preflop strikes me as crazy 3 handed.


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Even if you have no clue who BB is? I'd just want to know who I was dealing with before I got involved with such a marginal hand.

Re: just shoot me now
 

you have to call here.

pf is well within my range as well.

to dd, do you open your range up when you play 3handed? i tend to tighten up a tad against the typical lagclowns.

Re: just shoot me now
 

Q6s is not nearly so marginal threehanded bob

Re: just shoot me now
 

[ QUOTE ]
Q6s is not nearly so marginal threehanded bob

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wait, why is 3handed on the button different than 6handed on the button? what adjustments do you make preflop with your range?

Re: just shoot me now
 

Victor,

Because you are the big blind next hand? [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

Re: just shoot me now
 

[ QUOTE ]
Victor,

Because you are the big blind next hand? [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

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Doesn't change anything with regard to open raising on the button.

Re: just shoot me now
 

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Folding preflop strikes me as pretty close in EV to raising.

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Re: just shoot me now
 

Stating the obvious.

I think we have to call the river unless we know that these hands aren't in his range, given the way he played the rest of the hand:

78, 34, two clubs, ace high (sometimes).

What should our range of raising hands be on the turn? ("reading our own hand")

Re: just shoot me now
 

waffle, i would add worse 6 or counterfit pp.

Re: just shoot me now
 

[ QUOTE ]
Q6s is not nearly so marginal threehanded bob

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you're missing the point. (and not just you, so this post isn't directed only at you.) i get that we have position and that we are 3-handed. that is not the issue. the issue is that we have no idea what we are dealing with in terms of the BB. is he honest postflop? is he a spazz? does he try to induce bluffs? does he c/r any flop? will Q-high win here UI? will he 3bet with a wide range? how will he play differently HU vs. 3handed?

some hands are obvious raises regardless of who is in the blinds. some aren't. i have no problem raising all kinds of hands OTB, but I want to know what i'm dealing with before i get in there with something marginal. if he is a TAG, i may play one way postflop, whereas if he is weak i may play another or if he is a spazztardfecesspewingmoney i'll play yet another way. but now we have no clue and our preflop hand is marginal and we will be in unchartered waters postflop, so i'll pass and wait until i have a better read on BB before i challenge him with a marginal holding.

Re: just shoot me now
 

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Q6s is not nearly so marginal threehanded bob

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wait, why is 3handed on the button different than 6handed on the button? what adjustments do you make preflop with your range?

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I've heard this many times and on some level I believe it, but here's the problem as I see it...3 handed your opponents are playing a lot more hands, the BB is basically never folding for one bet preflop and the button might raise in the dark (this is how some people play 3 handed not saying what is right). Because of this you clearly need to expand your range of hands to defend with or 3 bet with out of the SB just for pure value and so you won't get run over. If we need to therefore play more hands ourselves, doesn't it make sense to play as many of them as we can on the button?

Are you guys saying that the proper 3 handed strategy is to play the button just like you would when folded to you in a full game, but then play tons of hands in your blinds (because the other guys will play maniacally on their buttons)? This strikes me as difficult, the positional advantage is huge.

So yes, I play more hands on the button 3 handed than I do 6 handed or at a full table.

-DeathDonkey

Re: just shoot me now
 

so the bb defends more, and the sb 3bets more. now we want to raise more hands into these guys?

Re: just shoot me now
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
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Q6s is not nearly so marginal threehanded bob

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wait, why is 3handed on the button different than 6handed on the button? what adjustments do you make preflop with your range?

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I've heard this many times and on some level I believe it, but here's the problem as I see it...3 handed your opponents are playing a lot more hands, the BB is basically never folding for one bet preflop and the button might raise in the dark (this is how some people play 3 handed not saying what is right). Because of this you clearly need to expand your range of hands to defend with or 3 bet with out of the SB just for pure value and so you won't get run over. If we need to therefore play more hands ourselves, doesn't it make sense to play as many of them as we can on the button?

Are you guys saying that the proper 3 handed strategy is to play the button just like you would when folded to you in a full game, but then play tons of hands in your blinds (because the other guys will play maniacally on their buttons)? This strikes me as difficult, the positional advantage is huge.

So yes, I play more hands on the button 3 handed than I do 6 handed or at a full table.

-DeathDonkey

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Given everything you've said there folding Q6s hardly seems "crazy."

Re: just shoot me now
 

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so the bb defends more, and the sb 3bets more. now we want to raise more hands into these guys?

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Yes, because we need to play enough hands to not get run over and I'd rather play them on the button than in the blinds. Do you disagree? I don't think you guys understand what I said or I said it poorly. We need to find hands to play somewhere, would you rather be in position or out of position? If the answer is you will defend your blinds a whole lot more and play tight on the button, fine, but please explain that argument to me because I just don't understand it.

-DeathDonkey

Re: just shoot me now
 

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so the bb defends more, and the sb 3bets more. now we want to raise more hands into these guys?

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Yes, because we need to play enough hands to not get run over and I'd rather play them on the button than in the blinds. Do you disagree? I don't think you guys understand what I said or I said it poorly. We need to find hands to play somewhere, would you rather be in position or out of position? If the answer is you will defend your blinds a whole lot more and play tight on the button, fine, but please explain that argument to me because I just don't understand it.

-DeathDonkey

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this is my argument. if a hand is -ev on the button 6handed, i cant figure out how it all of a sudden becomes profitable if we are 3handed.

Re: just shoot me now
 

yeah i don't think it makes a difference. also, 6-handed when it gets folded to me, i raise almost 50% of the time. i know other people raise more than this on the button. i don't think it should be any different, and maybe it just seems like you're raising a ton simply because it's always "folded to you" when you're the button 3-handed.

Re: just shoot me now
 

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so the bb defends more, and the sb 3bets more. now we want to raise more hands into these guys?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, because we need to play enough hands to not get run over and I'd rather play them on the button than in the blinds. Do you disagree? I don't think you guys understand what I said or I said it poorly. We need to find hands to play somewhere, would you rather be in position or out of position? If the answer is you will defend your blinds a whole lot more and play tight on the button, fine, but please explain that argument to me because I just don't understand it.

-DeathDonkey

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But you need to look at your button hands in a vacuum. You can't say, "well I need to find someplace to play hands in the 3 handed game so it might as well be the button." All that matters is the profitability of certain hands when you open on the button with them. I with others who think that the range should be tighter if anything because players tend to play way too many hands out of the blinds 3 handed. Exploiting that weakness means playing a stronger set of hands.

Re: just shoot me now
 

call

Re: just shoot me now
 

[ QUOTE ]
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so the bb defends more, and the sb 3bets more. now we want to raise more hands into these guys?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, because we need to play enough hands to not get run over and I'd rather play them on the button than in the blinds. Do you disagree? I don't think you guys understand what I said or I said it poorly. We need to find hands to play somewhere, would you rather be in position or out of position? If the answer is you will defend your blinds a whole lot more and play tight on the button, fine, but please explain that argument to me because I just don't understand it.

-DeathDonkey

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But you need to look at your button hands in a vacuum. You can't say, "well I need to find someplace to play hands in the 3 handed game so it might as well be the button." All that matters is the profitability of certain hands when you open on the button with them. I with others who think that the range should be tighter if anything because players tend to play way too many hands out of the blinds 3 handed. Exploiting that weakness means playing a stronger set of hands.

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I agree with this.

Surf

Re: just shoot me now
 

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this is my argument. if a hand is -ev on the button 6handed, i cant figure out how it all of a sudden becomes profitable if we are 3handed.

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People are defending with a wider range 3 handed.

Re: just shoot me now
 

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these FT players drive me batty. seems like the epicenter of the new donking epidemic.

[/ QUOTE ]

You have not played in Absolute lately, have you?

Re: just shoot me now
 

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this is my argument. if a hand is -ev on the button 6handed, i cant figure out how it all of a sudden becomes profitable if we are 3handed.

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People are defending with a wider range 3 handed.

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yeah so you don't want to play the -EV hands because they'll actually be more -EV 3-handed since you won't even succeed in stealing as much as you would at a 6-handed table...

Re: just shoot me now
 

now you screwed up my fundementals, are you saying you wont be playing more hands the fewer players it gets ? !

Re: just shoot me now
 

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now you screwed up my fundementals, are you saying you wont be playing more hands the fewer players it gets ? !

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i am saying i wouldn't play more hands on the button 3-handed than i would in a 6-handed game when the first 3 players have folded to me. this is obviously not the same as saying my vpip would be lower playing 3-handed than playing 6-handed.

Re: just shoot me now
 

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this is my argument. if a hand is -ev on the button 6handed, i cant figure out how it all of a sudden becomes profitable if we are 3handed.

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People are defending with a wider range 3 handed.

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yeah so you don't want to play the -EV hands because they'll actually be more -EV 3-handed since you won't even succeed in stealing as much as you would at a 6-handed table...

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I don't think that this is necessarily the case. Because someone doensnt fold his bb to a threehanded button steal doesnt mean that he won't make all manner of positional based mistakes postflop.

We don't know our villain here, but we do understand the situation, and the situation is this:we are threehanded an in position.

I'm with DD on this one - each orbit costs 1.5 sb, and each orbit lasts three hands. Therefore each hand costs .5 sb to play. This is a major major difference from a full ring scenario where each hand costs .15 sb to play. Given the price per hand, we're better off maximizing the postflop time we spend in position as opposed to out of it.

Also, successful blind and flop cont steals from the button can buy us some tightness in the bb and sb. If we pass on too many orphaned pots from in position we're going to be forced to put most of our money in from the bb, which is the losingest position at the table.

I'm not saying that I raise every button in a threehanded game. I am saying that I'll raise up Q6s every time until I get a postflop read. this strategy is only really exploitable if a blind player manages to cause me to fold the best hand too much, which is why we should gravitate towards high-card type hands from the button in this scenario.

Re: just shoot me now
 

how do marginal blind steal hands make money?

1. both blinds fold
2. one blind calls and check folds the flop

once you get to having to fire flop and turn bets with anything, you start to get into pretty neutral territory imo.

how do marginal blind steal hands lose money?

1. when they get 3-bet preflop and are forced to call.
2. when players are willing to play back postflop w/o a hand.
the first two things happen less often playing 3-handed - the last two happen much more often.

remember, my argument is simply that you should not play more aggressively OTB 3-handed than you would in a 6-handed game when everyone folds to you. i still don't see how you can say that the very very marginal hands can fare as well against players who will almost certainly defend their blinds more vigorously. i believe that the adjustments the blinds make will eat into the hands that are otherwise very slightly +EV at a 6-handed table.