The hand that sunk me very deep in FT 109 short handed
 

FT 109 short handed. Theres 10 players left, i've got a pretty aggressive image. Blinds are 2000/4000 with a 200 ante. Im using smaller raises tonight, especially with my better hands because people are shooting back at me quite a lot. Im utg with QQ.
My stack: 80k.
Villian: 60k.
Villian is very average player, and not really defineable by TAG/LAG/TW, just average, cold calls some hands he shouldn't, a little loose, a little sloppy. I've played the least hands with him.

Preflop: I riae to 10,500, folds to villian in SB, villian calls, BB folds.

Flop: K T 2 rainbow (pot 25k)

Villian has 50k left in his stack, how do you proceed?

Re: The hand that sunk me very deep in FT 109 short handed
 

Tough spot.

I would C-bet 15k and check fold unimproved. But I am interested what others have to say about this one

Re: The hand that sunk me very deep in FT 109 short handed
 

It would help to know if villain checked to you after the flop

Re: The hand that sunk me very deep in FT 109 short handed
 

Sorry yes, villian checked on the flop.

Re: The hand that sunk me very deep in FT 109 short handed
 

ya I'd bet a little more than half pot, fold to push, check behind turn and river unimproved

Re: The hand that sunk me very deep in FT 109 short handed
 

i dont see any reason to bet here....call or fold based on his bet amount

Re: The hand that sunk me very deep in FT 109 short handed
 

Seriously battletoad2, do you ever read posts? I mean...

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Sorry yes, villian checked on the flop.

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I don't think checking the flop is too horrible either here, given stack sizes. Betting and folding, getting 2.5:1 or better, is just ugh.

Re: The hand that sunk me very deep in FT 109 short handed
 

I like a check behind here (though a very very similar spot with JJ cost me $$$ in a $55 FO because I checked behind), or I think a bet call is in order. His c/r range is way way bigger than Kx, esp since it is shorthanded.

Re: The hand that sunk me very deep in FT 109 short handed
 

Okay guys im gonna advance the hand a little. I thought it over and decided he coudln't have AK cuase he'd repop pre. He could have KQ and if he sucked more than i thought KJ, other than that i felt like he was 2-4 outing. Since i was a bit short i wanted to accumulate leading up to the final table and i took my chances with checking hoping he'd fire with a worse hand.

Turn: 5
He bets 16,000, i call.

I think this is pretty standard, not sure we need a discussion here. River is tougher.

River: 2
He bets all in for 34k.


Now what???? Did i get what i wanted and have him commit everything behind, or did i just let a K basically stack me?

Re: The hand that sunk me very deep in FT 109 short handed
 

That's the problem with checking the flop. Now we sit on the river with no real idea where we stand. Did he bet the turn because he has solid value with a king? Or did he bet the turn because you checked behind on the flop and he's taking advantage of the fact that you showed weakness? The call on the turn tells him you like your hand somewhat but not enough to raise him. I would have much rather invested 10-12k on the flop with a c-bet when we are still the dominant hand. Where we are now is the river, with an opponent who's telling us he has a king, and we have no evidence to the contrary. Did he check the flop with his king to set a trap? He could have. When you checked behind he realized he better bet now because you want to show this one down. By the same token he may have JJ or less and think he's good. We don't have a clear picture, but he says we're beat and we have to cut our losses here and learn from it. Define that hand on the flop next time [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img].

Re: The hand that sunk me very deep in FT 109 short handed
 

Just re-read the title of this post. Sorry to hear it man. I take it you called?

Re: The hand that sunk me very deep in FT 109 short handed
 

I agree with Bomber. I lead out here with 50+% of the pot. You checked no reason for him not to bet with anything. Then you just called, he smelled weakness and pushed. Now you still have a good hand but No Idea what he has. He could have a K or nothing but you gave him no reason to play it any other way even with nada.

Now if you lead out say bet 50+% after he checks. He is either going to fold. He might just call so now you can put him on some sort of hand. Or he comes over the top.

Either way you've picked up some information, can still get away from the hand if he calls or raises.

Re: The hand that sunk me very deep in FT 109 short handed
 

I like checking behind on the flop. If you bet/fold the flop, then you turn your QQ into 72.

The river could be a tough call.

Re: The hand that sunk me very deep in FT 109 short handed
 

I call the river. People don't usually flat call raises with a K, particularly in the 100r where they are mostly not complete donks.

I like check/calling the whole way fine. I don't mind betting the flop. However, if I do, I don't know if I fold to a raise.

If you busted with this hand, fine. That is better than playing weak/tight.

Re: The hand that sunk me very deep in FT 109 short handed
 

I agree with the fact that you are turning your QQ into 72 but I still think that the best way to play the hand is to make your bluff and then move on if you lose.

Yes, this allows the villain to c/r bluff you with AQ, JJ, or 99 but it forces him to make a decission for all of his chips and you are much more likely to get bluffed off of your hand if you check through on the flop.

A king, AA, and a set are all in your range so it would take some major cojones for the villain to bluff you off of this pot and if he has the balls to make that play then you just have to tip your cap and say nice hand.

Re: The hand that sunk me very deep in FT 109 short handed
 

Well I am saying you "could" get away from the hand. I would lead out 50+% of the pot and if he calls play it all the way through. I just don't know what I would do with an all-in re-raise after the flop and my bet.

I'd prefer to fire at the pot instead of check calling personally.

The way this played out I don't like being put in this position.

Re: The hand that sunk me very deep in FT 109 short handed
 

I made a major mistake in titling this post the way i did. I won't do that next time, becuase now some people are reading this with the mindset of "how can we avoid losing chips?"

Heres how i read his river bet, he either has KQ/KJ and has me or i've forced him into a situation with AQ/AJ 99/88/77 that forces him into a bluff if he wants to have any chips (if checks knowing he'll lose he'll have 9 BB's left in a short handed tournament.)

I guess my thinking with this line is that when i bet the flop im not sure i can lay it down (if you want tell me with some clear thinking why i should definately fold here if i cont bet flop, im willing to listen to reason), and since i don't really think im going to lay down (again, i see 2 hands in his range KQ/KJ that should have us beat) by checking i force him into this kind of spot where he feels like he MUST bluff at me in order to get the pot.

Re: The hand that sunk me very deep in FT 109 short handed
 

Well if that's your mindset, then there's nothing wrong at all here. That was your dream scenario, he made his bluff so now you call it. The problem is you really don't know what he's doing. The c-bet on the flop is designed to give you a better idea of what he's up to before a lot of chips go into the pot. If you c-bet (12k)and he re-raises you, you're screwed unless he's making a balls out bluff. You can step away from this hand 22k down, but nowhere near out. If he just calls? Well it's time to re-evaluate but it's not looking too good. Best there would be if he has a lower pp. If he called my c-bet, then made a strong bet on the turn, I would likely give this up. Other than a stone-cold bluff what's he doing this with? I'm not going to throw away my chips because I have a pretty hand that I don't want to lose. Besides aces preflop, or being grossly pot-commited, there isn't any situation where you should say, I'm not letting this go, especially when the situation is an overcard hit to your pp. I understand it's frustrating, but when you're beat, you're beat.

Try to put yourself in his shoes for a moment. You raised preflop, showing strength. Flop comes (25,000) Check, Check. Turn he stabs at it, bets 16,000 you call saying you're interested in this pot (57,000). Then he pushes the river for his last 34,000. I just can't imagine what holding he has that justifies this, and we're ahead of. I feel like if he was running a bluff that you just lowered the boom on him when you called and he'd put the brakes on.

I really think you need to find out where you stand earlier in this hand. We're heading down a dark alley with our eyes closed, gaining no information along the way. I'm trying really hard to piece this together, but all I can come up with is to next time be more decisive. If you dropped dead after his bet on the river and I had to take your place and play the hand, I would be angry that this guy sucked a king out, fold my hand, take the 53,500 chips I still have, and play it out. Notice the difference between my two choices also. If I c-bet, then fold to what I believe is a king, I've lost 22,500. If I check the flop, call the turn, then he moves in and I realize I'm beat, I fold and lose 26,500. So in this way, c-betting actually made me 4,000 chips as opposed to checking.

Re: The hand that sunk me very deep in FT 109 short handed
 

Everything up til the river is perfect and the river is pretty close either way and basically comes down to your read of the opponent. If he's the type to bluff a lot it's an easy call, if he's more passive postflop then you should fold. It's definitely hard to put him on a specific hand here postflop but KQ/KJ/TT/55/KTs/22 all seem possible given your read that he's a little too loose preflop. It's definitely close but use whatever you know about his postfop tendencies to make your decision.

Re: The hand that sunk me very deep in FT 109 short handed
 

[ QUOTE ]
Everything up til the river is perfect and the river is pretty close either way and basically comes down to your read of the opponent. If he's the type to bluff a lot it's an easy call, if he's more passive postflop then you should fold. It's definitely hard to put him on a specific hand here postflop but KQ/KJ/TT/55/KTs/22 all seem possible given your read that he's a little too loose preflop. It's definitely close but use whatever you know about his postfop tendencies to make your decision.

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Bingo. Betting flop sucks

Re: The hand that sunk me very deep in FT 109 short handed
 

I definetely like betting the flop here, leading out for about 50% of the pot. Villain could have a wide range of hands, as he did call a smallish raise from the blinds. If/when villain calls and checks the turn, I check behind and call almost any bet on the river. Pot is kept much smaller this way, and it induces weaker hands (910s, 810s, J10s, 77-99, to make a play at the pot).