LA Times Op-ed: Islam gets concessions; infidels get conquered
 

In the spirit of the rabbi's daughter's letter to her father I thought this moving Op-ed piece in the LA Times should also be discussed.
Might Makes Right?

[ QUOTE ]

Herein lies the conundrum. When Islamists wage jihad — past, present and future — conquering and consolidating non-Muslim territories and centers in the name of Islam, never once considering to cede them back to their previous owners, they ultimately demonstrate that they live by the age-old adage "might makes right." That's fine; many people agree with this Hobbesian view.

But if we live in a world where the strong rule and the weak submit, why is it that whenever Muslim regions are conquered, such as in the case of Palestine, the same Islamists who would never concede one inch of Islam's conquests resort to the United Nations and the court of public opinion, demanding justice, restitutions, rights and so forth?

Put another way, when Muslims beat infidels, it's just too bad for the latter; they must submit to their new overlords' rules with all the attendant discrimination and humiliation mandated for non-Muslims. Yet when Islam is beaten, demands for apologies and concessions are expected from the infidel world at large.

...

But perhaps Muslims cannot be blamed for expecting special treatment, as well as believing that jihad is righteous and decreed by the Almighty. The West constantly goes out of its way to confirm such convictions. By criticizing itself, apologizing and offering concessions — all things the Islamic world has yet to do — the West reaffirms that Islam has a privileged status in the world.


[/ QUOTE ]

Mr. Ibrahim brings up some pretty interesting points. Anyone care to refute?

Re: LA Times Op-ed: Islam gets concessions; infidels get conquered
 

[ QUOTE ]
Anyone care to refute?

[/ QUOTE ]
I do.

To a large extent, I consider who conquered who hundreds or thousands of years ago a sunk cost. Every square inch of this earth has been conquered at one time or another.

The fair thing to do is to analyze who is suffering right now and what we can do about it. The Palestinians are in terrible shape: their economy in tatters and their nation split by a fence and pockmarked with foreign checkpoints. Israel does not suffer this fate. Therefore, the correct thing to do is to give the Palestininans a real state. The the people living in nations conquered by Muslims generally like having their governments dominated by Muslims. The same cannot be said of the Palestinians living in occupied territory.

Re: LA Times Op-ed: Islam gets concessions; infidels get conquered
 

If everyone honestly believed the conflict would be solved by a Palestinian state, maybe it would happen. I think Israel has little reason to believe that it would stop at that.

Re: LA Times Op-ed: Islam gets concessions; infidels get conquered
 

[ QUOTE ]
In the spirit of the rabbi's daughter's letter to her father I thought this moving Op-ed piece in the LA Times should also be discussed.
Might Makes Right?

[ QUOTE ]

Herein lies the conundrum. When Islamists wage jihad — past, present and future — conquering and consolidating non-Muslim territories and centers in the name of Islam, never once considering to cede them back to their previous owners, they ultimately demonstrate that they live by the age-old adage "might makes right." That's fine; many people agree with this Hobbesian view.

But if we live in a world where the strong rule and the weak submit, why is it that whenever Muslim regions are conquered, such as in the case of Palestine, the same Islamists who would never concede one inch of Islam's conquests resort to the United Nations and the court of public opinion, demanding justice, restitutions, rights and so forth?

Put another way, when Muslims beat infidels, it's just too bad for the latter; they must submit to their new overlords' rules with all the attendant discrimination and humiliation mandated for non-Muslims. Yet when Islam is beaten, demands for apologies and concessions are expected from the infidel world at large.

...

But perhaps Muslims cannot be blamed for expecting special treatment, as well as believing that jihad is righteous and decreed by the Almighty. The West constantly goes out of its way to confirm such convictions. By criticizing itself, apologizing and offering concessions — all things the Islamic world has yet to do — the West reaffirms that Islam has a privileged status in the world.


[/ QUOTE ]

Mr. Ibrahim brings up some pretty interesting points. Anyone care to refute?

[/ QUOTE ]

I dunno, this article makes very little sense to me.

The Turks conquered Constantinople 500 years ago. Who are they supposed to give it back to at this point? Does he really think that is equivalent to the issue of Palestine?

He also seems to confuse areas that were forcefully taken by Islamic civilizations (Western Anatolia) with areas to which Islam just spread (Indonesia).

Re: LA Times Op-ed: Islam gets concessions; infidels get conquered
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Anyone care to refute?

[/ QUOTE ]
I do.

To a large extent, I consider who conquered who hundreds or thousands of years ago a sunk cost. Every square inch of this earth has been conquered at one time or another.

The fair thing to do is to analyze who is suffering right now and what we can do about it. The Palestinians are in terrible shape: their economy in tatters and their nation split by a fence and pockmarked with foreign checkpoints. Israel does not suffer this fate. Therefore, the correct thing to do is to give the Palestininans a real state.


[/ QUOTE ]

So, if Israel can just wait 150 more years, then it would be ok for them to rule Israel and not have a Palestinian state. Time does not make right. The problem with the west is they live in a different world than the Middle East. The whole point of the article is that in the Middle East Might Makes Right, while we as westerners feel bad for the downtrodden.

[ QUOTE ]
The the people living in nations conquered by Muslims generally like having their governments dominated by Muslims. The same cannot be said of the Palestinians living in occupied territory.

[/ QUOTE ]

WOW. Is this the politics forum or the Laughs and Links forum? This blanket statement is probably the most ridiculous thing I have read in weeks on ths board.
Please point out some actual places where I can learn how great it is to be under Islam's rule! I'll start you off.
The Buddhists of Afgahanistan Agree

The Sudanese are having a blast!

Self-Inflicted Injuries
 

[ QUOTE ]
(Their) economy (is) in tatters

[/ QUOTE ]
A self inflicted injury.
Perhaps their economy would improve if they sought cooperation and peace with Israel. Also if they stopped the massive corruption that plagues their leadership, their lives would improve. Arabs come to Israel for work because the Arab leadership is too incompetant to nuture job growth in Arab lands. There may come a time where Israel becomes fed up with Palestinian violence and stops accepting their labor. After all, is having a Palestinian put up drywall for $10/hr worth losing your life to a suicide bomber?

[ QUOTE ]
their nation split by a fence and pockmarked with foreign checkpoints.

[/ QUOTE ]
Another self-inflicted injury.
The fence was a result of the Israelis realizing they could no longer tolerate the Arabs sending suicide bombers to murder Israelis. CHECKPOINTS are for Arabs wishing to enter ISREALI territory. To cross from Canada to the USA people have to go through checkpoints. Why should it be different for people who wish to enter Israeli? Perhaps if the Arabs stopped trying to sneak suicide bombers into Israel, then the Israelis might lower they guard a bit. BTW the fence has been an enormous SUCCESS in reducing murders on Israelis from Palestinians...

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The same cannot be said of the Palestinians living in occupied territory.

[/ QUOTE ]
Which occupied territory are you referring to? The fence has been built. Isreali on one side and the Arabs on the other. The Arabs are free to seek prosperity like Israel has chosen to. Instead the Arabs choose corruption and a govt that speaks of war against Israel. The Arabs have made their bed, now they must lie in it....

Re: LA Times Op-ed: Islam gets concessions; infidels get conquered
 

These points are made almost word for word in a recent column I cant put my hands on right now, most likely by Lee Harris of the Hoover Institute.

Also Andrew Bostom's new book on the history of Jihad would make the same points Im sure.

I dont think WHEN the conquests occurred is as important as the mindset of Islam, which, as the editorial points out, is one of "privilege". Everythings cool when they win a conflict, but if they should lose, the spoils of war should go to the losers, after all, they were their's before the conflict.

Re: LA Times Op-ed: Islam gets concessions; infidels get conquered
 

Note this day. I am in complete agreement with Felix & Copernicus.

The Pals reap what they sow.

Re: Self-Inflicted Injuries
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
(Their) economy (is) in tatters

[/ QUOTE ]
A self inflicted injury.
Perhaps their economy would improve if they sought cooperation and peace with Israel. Also if they stopped the massive corruption that plagues their leadership, their lives would improve. Arabs come to Israel for work because the Arab leadership is too incompetant to nuture job growth in Arab lands. There may come a time where Israel becomes fed up with Palestinian violence and stops accepting their labor. After all, is having a Palestinian put up drywall for $10/hr worth losing your life to a suicide bomber?

[ QUOTE ]
their nation split by a fence and pockmarked with foreign checkpoints.

[/ QUOTE ]
Another self-inflicted injury.
The fence was a result of the Israelis realizing they could no longer tolerate the Arabs sending suicide bombers to murder Israelis. CHECKPOINTS are for Arabs wishing to enter ISREALI territory. To cross from Canada to the USA people have to go through checkpoints. Why should it be different for people who wish to enter Israeli? Perhaps if the Arabs stopped trying to sneak suicide bombers into Israel, then the Israelis might lower they guard a bit. BTW the fence has been an enormous SUCCESS in reducing murders on Israelis from Palestinians...

[ QUOTE ]
The same cannot be said of the Palestinians living in occupied territory.

[/ QUOTE ]
Which occupied territory are you referring to? The fence has been built. Isreali on one side and the Arabs on the other. The Arabs are free to seek prosperity like Israel has chosen to. Instead the Arabs choose corruption and a govt that speaks of war against Israel. The Arabs have made their bed, now they must lie in it....

[/ QUOTE ]

the fence is built partly on land confiscated from the Palestinians. they are not "free to seek prosperity like Israel has chosen to".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli...n_Palestinians

Re: Self-Inflicted Injuries
 

[ QUOTE ]
the fence is built partly on land confiscated from the Palestinians. they are not "free to seek prosperity like Israel has chosen to".

[/ QUOTE ]
I see nothing in this link that that supports your statement.
Although it did support the Israeli position, that terrorism has decreased since the wall has been built. The Palestinian construction workers who once had jobs from Israelis are suffering but when their breathren start murdering Jews then....cheap Arab labor doesn't seem like a good deal when they try to kill you and your family...

Corruption and communism are the two strongest factors which are keeping the Palestinians from making economic factors. Also murdering civilians from the primary trading partner is not good business.... I have ZERO sympathy for them.

Re: LA Times Op-ed: Islam gets concessions; infidels get conquered
 

[ QUOTE ]
Mr. Ibrahim brings up some pretty interesting points. Anyone care to refute?

[/ QUOTE ]Yes. The argument is silly on its face because the article assumes that groups act from a set of principles and that they will honor those principles even to their own detriment. That is silly.

There is only self interest.

Re: Self-Inflicted Injuries
 

[ QUOTE ]
the fence is built partly on land confiscated from the Palestinians. they are not "free to seek prosperity like Israel has chosen to".

[/ QUOTE ]

When have the Palestinians ever tried to seek prosperity? What industries have they tried to build up? When have they ever tried to install real leadership instead of following murderous thugs? When have they ever tried to quell terrorism? Why are they not free to do these things?

Maybe they got a raw deal in their situation back in the day. But, they have done absolutely nothing to help their own cause.

Re: LA Times Op-ed: Islam gets concessions; infidels get conquered
 

[ QUOTE ]
In the spirit of the rabbi's daughter's letter to her father I thought this moving Op-ed piece in the LA Times should also be discussed.
Might Makes Right?

[ QUOTE ]

Herein lies the conundrum. When Islamists wage jihad — past, present and future — conquering and consolidating non-Muslim territories and centers in the name of Islam, never once considering to cede them back to their previous owners, they ultimately demonstrate that they live by the age-old adage "might makes right." That's fine; many people agree with this Hobbesian view.

But if we live in a world where the strong rule and the weak submit, why is it that whenever Muslim regions are conquered, such as in the case of Palestine, the same Islamists who would never concede one inch of Islam's conquests resort to the United Nations and the court of public opinion, demanding justice, restitutions, rights and so forth?

Put another way, when Muslims beat infidels, it's just too bad for the latter; they must submit to their new overlords' rules with all the attendant discrimination and humiliation mandated for non-Muslims. Yet when Islam is beaten, demands for apologies and concessions are expected from the infidel world at large.

...

But perhaps Muslims cannot be blamed for expecting special treatment, as well as believing that jihad is righteous and decreed by the Almighty. The West constantly goes out of its way to confirm such convictions. By criticizing itself, apologizing and offering concessions — all things the Islamic world has yet to do — the West reaffirms that Islam has a privileged status in the world.


[/ QUOTE ]

Mr. Ibrahim brings up some pretty interesting points. Anyone care to refute?

[/ QUOTE ]

I dont think that Muslims have any recourse in the United Nations (they cannot get any resolution passed that in anyway castigates Israel, ever!), nor do they care for public opinion (at least not in the West).

It is human nature to complain when they lose and rule with an iron fist when they win. We are actively suppressing Iraq with might, the Palestinians are suppressed actively by the victorious.

I dont see anything particularly new or enlightening in the piece.

Re: LA Times Op-ed: Islam gets concessions; infidels get conquered
 

Professional victims imo

Re: LA Times Op-ed: Islam gets concessions; infidels get conquered
 

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The Palestinians are in terrible shape: their economy in tatters and their nation split by a fence and pockmarked with foreign checkpoints.

[/ QUOTE ]

I remember finding some data on Palestinian economic indicators and all is not bleak.

- YTD rock throwing at Israelies up 24% over 2005.
- Suicide bomber recruitment programs up 12%.
- 'Drive Jews into the Sea' bumper stickers up 50% (but not so many cars to put them on).
- And they are outbreeding all of the Western world. If that's not a positive indicator, I don't know one when I see it.

Seriously, Palestinians can fix their lot in life via a 12 step program and step 1 is to recognize Israel's right to exist. All else follows.

Re: LA Times Op-ed: Islam gets concessions; infidels get conquered
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The Palestinians are in terrible shape: their economy in tatters and their nation split by a fence and pockmarked with foreign checkpoints.

[/ QUOTE ]

I remember finding some data on Palestinian economic indicators and all is not bleak.

- YTD rock throwing at Israelies up 24% over 2005.
- Suicide bomber recruitment programs up 12%.
- 'Drive Jews into the Sea' bumper stickers up 50% (but not so many cars to put them on).
- And they are outbreeding all of the Western world. If that's not a positive indicator, I don't know one when I see it.

Seriously, Palestinians can fix their lot in life via a 12 step program and step 1 is to recognize Israel's right to exist. All else follows.

[/ QUOTE ]

Lol. NH sir.

I'm tired of this bizarrre perception that Palestine is anything but the architect of their own demise. Israel isn't perfect but they sure as hell have a right to exist.

I hope they have learned by now that giving an inch results in immediate demands for a yard...

Re: LA Times Op-ed: Islam gets concessions; infidels get conquered
 

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Israel isn't perfect but they sure as hell have a right to exist.

[/ QUOTE ]Lets say they dont have a right to exist. It doesnt really matter. They are not going away. Maybe the Palestinians has gotten one of the worst deals in the 20th century. That doesnt matter either.

The Palestinians should still act in their own self interest and try to prosper with the hand dealt to them. I dont understand why they do not. What am I missing from the equation?

Re: LA Times Op-ed: Islam gets concessions; infidels get conquered
 

[ QUOTE ]
What am I missing from the equation?

[/ QUOTE ]
http://www.laportadeltempo.com/Regno...braveheart.gif

Re: LA Times Op-ed: Islam gets concessions; infidels get conquered
 

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when Muslims beat infidels,

[/ QUOTE ]

Contempory example please.

Re: LA Times Op-ed: Islam gets concessions; infidels get conquered
 

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[ QUOTE ]
What am I missing from the equation?

[/ QUOTE ]
http://www.laportadeltempo.com/Regno...braveheart.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

William Wallace, freedom fighter or terrorist?

Re: LA Times Op-ed: Islam gets concessions; infidels get conquered
 

[ QUOTE ]
The Buddhists of Afgahanistan Agree

[/ QUOTE ]

Seeing you are accusing the forum of being uninformed you can tell me when was the last time there was a significant buddhist population in Afganistan. Hint (is over 600 years ago).

Saying that Muslims were harsh to Buddhists in Afganistan is like saying Christians were harsh to pagans as the time frame is very similar.

Re: LA Times Op-ed: Islam gets concessions; infidels get conquered
 

Oil-less Arab/Muslim countries are mostly s--tholes. Palestine will be a league leader.

Teach your children math and letters instead of hate. It will go a long way.

Re: LA Times Op-ed: Islam gets concessions; infidels get conquered
 

Intentionally target civilians for killing = terrorist

Re: LA Times Op-ed: Islam gets concessions; infidels get conquered
 

Try smuggling a bible, or starting up a church, in Saudi Arabia....and see how that goes. Is that recent enough?

Re: LA Times Op-ed: Islam gets concessions; infidels get conquered
 

So the Taliban blowing up Buddhist temples in the last 15 years doesn't count?

Re: LA Times Op-ed: Islam gets concessions; infidels get conquered
 

[ QUOTE ]
So the Taliban blowing up Buddhist temples in the last 15 years doesn't count?

[/ QUOTE ]

count as what? There have been no buddhists in Afganistan for centuries.

Re: LA Times Op-ed: Islam gets concessions; infidels get conquered
 

[ QUOTE ]
Try smuggling a bible, or starting up a church, in Saudi Arabia....and see how that goes. Is that recent enough?

[/ QUOTE ]

LOL, How on earth does this relate to what happens when Muslims invade a country which is what the op is about. As far as I know Saudi Arabia hasnt ever been invaded by Muslims.

Re: LA Times Op-ed: Islam gets concessions; infidels get conquered
 

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[ QUOTE ]
when Muslims beat infidels,

[/ QUOTE ]

Contempory example please.

[/ QUOTE ]


How about Pakistan? They won independence around the same time that Israel did. Let's see how the Hindu's of that area like it:

Hindus in Pakistan

"During 1970 and 1971, huge massacres were perpetrated upon Hindus, by the Pakistani army. A proper study into the casualty figures has never been conducted. Estimates for the number dead are up to 3 million. Millions of Hindu women were raped and kidnapped in this period. It was one of the largest massacres in recent history, and also one of the most ignored.

In 1977, General Zia ul-Haq led a military coup in Pakistan. He introduced Islamic Law, which further excluded and marginalised Hindus.

In 1989 and 1992 over 300 Hindu temples were destroyed. Many Hindus lost their homes. The largest outward migration of Hindus from Pakistan since Partition took place during these years."

Re: Self-Inflicted Injuries
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
the fence is built partly on land confiscated from the Palestinians. they are not "free to seek prosperity like Israel has chosen to".

[/ QUOTE ]
I see nothing in this link that that supports your statement.
Although it did support the Israeli position, that terrorism has decreased since the wall has been built. The Palestinian construction workers who once had jobs from Israelis are suffering but when their breathren start murdering Jews then....cheap Arab labor doesn't seem like a good deal when they try to kill you and your family...

[/ QUOTE ]

really?

"Parts of the barrier are built on land confiscated from Palestinians"
"The barrier has many effects on Palestinians including reduced freedoms, decreased checkpoints and closures, loss of land, increased difficulty in accessing medical services, change in political tactics and strategy, and economic effects."

Re-read the whole segment.

Re: Self-Inflicted Injuries
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
the fence is built partly on land confiscated from the Palestinians. they are not "free to seek prosperity like Israel has chosen to".

[/ QUOTE ]

When have the Palestinians ever tried to seek prosperity? What industries have they tried to build up? When have they ever tried to install real leadership instead of following murderous thugs? When have they ever tried to quell terrorism? Why are they not free to do these things?

Maybe they got a raw deal in their situation back in the day. But, they have done absolutely nothing to help their own cause.

[/ QUOTE ]

i think i get your point and i agree to some extent. however, this can be said about many areas and states in the world and it seems to be a hard issue to solve. i do not really know much of their history to comment on it but i am certain that the fence is a huge step back for the Palestinians.

Re: Self-Inflicted Injuries
 

[ QUOTE ]
"Parts of the barrier are built on land confiscated from Palestinians"
"The barrier has many effects on Palestinians including reduced freedoms, decreased checkpoints and closures, loss of land, increased difficulty in accessing medical services, change in political tactics and strategy, and economic effects."

[/ QUOTE ]
None of these prevent them from developing an economy in the land they do occupy.... The article offers a few vague accusations but no meat. Sorry if I'm underwhelmed...

[ QUOTE ]
The barrier has many effects on Palestinians including reduced freedoms

[/ QUOTE ]
They don't have the freedom to travel on Israeli land. So what. What do you expect when they murder Israeli civilians? Flowers? The Jews ahve the right to live their lives without people trying to blow them up...

[ QUOTE ]
increased difficulty in accessing medical services

[/ QUOTE ]
Translation: Difficulty in accessing ISRAELI medical facilities. Why should they have access to Israeli medical facilities? There have been cases of pregnant Palestinian women trying to smuggle bombs into Israel. The Israel's are being smart to restrict their access to Israeli medical help. If anything the Israelis deserve a medal for not denying ALL Palestinians medical help to ALL Israeli hospitals...

Re: Self-Inflicted Injuries
 

[ QUOTE ]
"The barrier has many effects on Palestinians including reduced freedoms, decreased checkpoints and closures, loss of land, increased difficulty in accessing medical services, change in political tactics and strategy, and economic effects."

[/ QUOTE ]

WHich translates into something like....much harder for suicide bombers to infiltrate Israel....

Tough break. They also fail to consider the self-esteem issues [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

Re: Self-Inflicted Injuries
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
"Parts of the barrier are built on land confiscated from Palestinians"
"The barrier has many effects on Palestinians including reduced freedoms, decreased checkpoints and closures, loss of land, increased difficulty in accessing medical services, change in political tactics and strategy, and economic effects."

[/ QUOTE ]
None of these prevent them from developing an economy in the land they do occupy.... The article offers a few vague accusations but no meat. Sorry if I'm underwhelmed...


[/ QUOTE ]

a) "....economic effects."

For instance, israel destroyed alot of fruit/olive plantages when they built the wall. Irrigation pipes were destroyed. etc.

And no, it doesnt offer a few vague accusations but no meat. "According to the Palestinian Negotiations Affairs Department (NAD) and other sources, 45% of Qalqilyah's farmland[62][63] now lie outside the barrier, and farmers require permits from Israeli authorities to access their lands that are on the opposite side. There are three gates in the barrier for the purpose of admitting farmers with permits to their fields that are open 3 times a day for a total of 50 minutes,..."

Very precise.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The barrier has many effects on Palestinians including reduced freedoms

[/ QUOTE ]
They don't have the freedom to travel on Israeli land. So what. What do you expect when they murder Israeli civilians? Flowers? The Jews ahve the right to live their lives without people trying to blow them up...

[/ QUOTE ]

b) The freedom issue. From the article: "The route [of the fence] inside the West Bank severs communities, people’s access to services, livelihoods and religious and cultural amenities."

I agree w/ you that the Jews have their right to live their lives in peace, but so do the Palestinians.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
increased difficulty in accessing medical services

[/ QUOTE ]
Translation: Difficulty in accessing ISRAELI medical facilities. Why should they have access to Israeli medical facilities? There have been cases of pregnant Palestinian women trying to smuggle bombs into Israel. The Israel's are being smart to restrict their access to Israeli medical help. If anything the Israelis deserve a medal for not denying ALL Palestinians medical help to ALL Israeli hospitals...

[/ QUOTE ]

c) Health issue. FTFA: "...report from Physicians for Human Rights-Israel also states that the barrier imposes "almost-total separation" on the hospitals from the population they are supposed to serve."

You should seriously re-read the article.

Re: Self-Inflicted Injuries
 

as a note on the health issue; did you know that in a war, a medic is supposed to help all soldiers and not just those on their own team? that is a rule of war iirc.

Re: LA Times Op-ed: Islam gets concessions; infidels get conquered
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The Buddhists of Afgahanistan Agree

[/ QUOTE ]

Seeing you are accusing the forum of being uninformed you can tell me when was the last time there was a significant buddhist population in Afganistan. Hint (is over 600 years ago).

Saying that Muslims were harsh to Buddhists in Afganistan is like saying Christians were harsh to pagans as the time frame is very similar.

[/ QUOTE ]

Where am I accusing the forum of being uninformed? Please point it out to me because I can't find it at all-- but I will freely admit that there aren't many (if any) buddhists in afghanistan and retract that statement. The fact that the Taliban destroyed those statues is definitely an incorrect response to the statement that people living under Muslim rule like it.

That being said, I can point out the persecution of non-Muslims in many if not ALL Muslim countries. The two I have pointed out-- the Sudan and Pakistan-- have yet to be addressed by anyone who claims the people living under Muslim rule enjoy it-- sheer ludicrousy.

Re: Self-Inflicted Injuries
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
the fence is built partly on land confiscated from the Palestinians. they are not "free to seek prosperity like Israel has chosen to".

[/ QUOTE ]

When have the Palestinians ever tried to seek prosperity? What industries have they tried to build up? When have they ever tried to install real leadership instead of following murderous thugs? When have they ever tried to quell terrorism? Why are they not free to do these things?

Maybe they got a raw deal in their situation back in the day. But, they have done absolutely nothing to help their own cause.

[/ QUOTE ]

i think i get your point and i agree to some extent. however, this can be said about many areas and states in the world and it seems to be a hard issue to solve. i do not really know much of their history to comment on it but i am certain that the fence is a huge step back for the Palestinians.

[/ QUOTE ]

The fence would not be going up if the Palestinians had stopped the suicide bombers. I think the Palestinians may have gotten a raw deal many decades ago but the fence is their own doing. You cant massacre a nations civilians and they cry that the fence they put up to stop you is unfair and is causing you hardship.

Re: LA Times Op-ed: Islam gets concessions; infidels get conquered
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Israel isn't perfect but they sure as hell have a right to exist.

[/ QUOTE ]Lets say they dont have a right to exist. It doesnt really matter. They are not going away. Maybe the Palestinians has gotten one of the worst deals in the 20th century. That doesnt matter either.

The Palestinians should still act in their own self interest and try to prosper with the hand dealt to them. I dont understand why they do not. What am I missing from the equation?

[/ QUOTE ]

However bad the Palestinians have it they have had it nowhere close to the worst in the 20th or any other century. They are lucky they are dealing with Jews who will try to understand them, try to deal with them, try to appease them, try to reason with them instead of simply destroying them.

IMO, they do what they do because their Arab culture demands revenge above all else. Having been 'humiliated' by losing over and over they must strive to regain their manhood or else they are regarded as less than men. This extends to murdering their own women or seeking to murder those who offend themselves or their tribes. There is now anarchy and near civil war in Gaza because they know no other way and that's the way it's always going to be until a peace is imposed on them by others on the Arab side, not the Western side. And who knows if that will ever happen.

Re: Self-Inflicted Injuries
 

[ QUOTE ]
The fence would not be going up if the Palestinians had stopped the suicide bombers. I think the Palestinians may have gotten a raw deal many decades ago but the fence is their own doing. You cant massacre a nations civilians and they cry that the fence they put up to stop you is unfair and is causing you hardship.


[/ QUOTE ]

Fence... fence... fence!? I kept on thinking about the Bush's fence between the USA and Mexico?

Re: Self-Inflicted Injuries
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
the fence is built partly on land confiscated from the Palestinians. they are not "free to seek prosperity like Israel has chosen to".

[/ QUOTE ]

When have the Palestinians ever tried to seek prosperity? What industries have they tried to build up? When have they ever tried to install real leadership instead of following murderous thugs? When have they ever tried to quell terrorism? Why are they not free to do these things?

Maybe they got a raw deal in their situation back in the day. But, they have done absolutely nothing to help their own cause.

[/ QUOTE ]

i think i get your point and i agree to some extent. however, this can be said about many areas and states in the world and it seems to be a hard issue to solve. i do not really know much of their history to comment on it but i am certain that the fence is a huge step back for the Palestinians.

[/ QUOTE ]

The fence would not be going up if the Palestinians had stopped the suicide bombers. I think the Palestinians may have gotten a raw deal many decades ago but the fence is their own doing. You cant massacre a nations civilians and they cry that the fence they put up to stop you is unfair and is causing you hardship.

[/ QUOTE ]

the wall is mostly of the Palestinians own doing, yes. Israel is free to do whatever they wanna do on their own soil, but to erect the wall on Palestinian soil is most likely a step away from peace.

Re: LA Times Op-ed: Islam gets concessions; infidels get conquered
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
when Muslims beat infidels,

[/ QUOTE ]

Contempory example please.

[/ QUOTE ]


I dont think your example is on point.

To the victors go many of the spoils. Look at how muslims have been treated in India for a counter example.




How about Pakistan? They won independence around the same time that Israel did. Let's see how the Hindu's of that area like it:

Hindus in Pakistan

"During 1970 and 1971, huge massacres were perpetrated upon Hindus, by the Pakistani army. A proper study into the casualty figures has never been conducted. Estimates for the number dead are up to 3 million. Millions of Hindu women were raped and kidnapped in this period. It was one of the largest massacres in recent history, and also one of the most ignored.

In 1977, General Zia ul-Haq led a military coup in Pakistan. He introduced Islamic Law, which further excluded and marginalised Hindus.

In 1989 and 1992 over 300 Hindu temples were destroyed. Many Hindus lost their homes. The largest outward migration of Hindus from Pakistan since Partition took place during these years."

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